Vendors?

Maybe something like 6 grades of charms (obviously with some variety in selection per grade) so one aimed at every two raid tiers from tier 1-12. We'll say for argument they each take 40 points to fill and a point awarding scale something similar to this:

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People with pre-existing charms could hand them in to jump up to whatever the equivalent is in the new system etc.

Lets say for example your guild <Egress> is farming ToT/Tier 8 to back gear replacement players and Noobius the cleric rolls up with a whole lotta AAs/tomes but he just bought his first charm! For shame Noobius... anyways, how many times would <Egress> have to do mobs of the same tier (tier 8)over and over until Noobius had the best possible charm for that tier of play (a grade 5 charm)?

1st Grade=7 boss kills to max
2nd Grade=8 boss kills to max
3rd Grade=10 boss kills to max
4th Grade=20 boss kills to max
5th Grade=40 boss kills to max
Total = 85 Boss kills to go from 1st Grade charm to 5th Grade charm

Each Grade of charm when done at the appropriate tier of play would require 20 boss kills which might sound like a lot on paper but hitting 2-3 targets in a raid night knocks that out pretty quickly.

I think this system combined perhaps with rotating Blessed Zone style system that adds +1 credit on top of what you would gain per kill(would add nothing if you would normally get zero) would be a nice incentive.

Oh yes on top of this I would suggest the implementation of daily quests for the casual man ie: Do a tmap (difficulty relative to the charm you have) get a nice chunk of exp and +1 charm credit.

Anyways obviously these numbers are just for the sake of example but I think it's a system that could work and simpler is always better.



this whole idea really owns. I mean owns in every sense of the word. You could even tie in the bounty system to have rare spawn/trigger? bounty mobs that reward a charm point for the casual bounty/tmap goers. There are so many options to expand and make this system really shine.

now for the inevitable: people that already farmed a charm

I feel that the best "exp" charm should be a little less than the supreme charm. BUT it should still be good enough to allow people raid spots and whatnot. I'm talking just a little extra incentive to farm the 1.2.

Also, people that have an eternal or below should be able to turn their charms in for credit on an exp charm of higher rank than 1 IF THEY DESIRE.

Overall I think this really rocks and I WISH this was around when I was grinding things and if, hopefully when, this goes in I will utilize it for my alts.
 
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Why not implement this alongside of buying a charm for platinum. that way you can get a charm as you naturally progress or if you want to poopsock it you can buy a charm. Maybe allow people to buy charm credits for large amounts of platinum.
 
The recent posts have the charm really tailored to raiders and continuing everyone being in a high-tier clique. Getting people out and interacting with the rest of the world has been a problem.

Hybrid solution: A set of Rorne's 6 different "levels" of charms. Killing raid mobs gives similar level of points/boss. Increase number of points to max out the charm to 100. Add in a few more Nadox style zones. 6-36 hour respawns, bard/druid/ranger trackable bosses. Rogue sneakable throughout. Good xp, nadox style gear, no plat. Killing bosses rewards you with points towards charms. However, make it so the number of points you receive is dependent on the number of different charm levels represented. e.g.
Group with a charm ranks of:
1,2,3,4,5,6 = 6 points/boss
1,2,3,4,6,6 = 5 points/boss
1,2,3,5,5,5 = 4 points/boss
1,2,5,5,5,5 = 3 points/boss
4,4,4,4,4,2 = 2 points/boss
6,6,6,6,6,6 = 1 point/boss
Perhaps make points transferable to bounty tokens and/or no-drop fragile augs. Fully filled charms are worth 90% of next level charm (and 90% stat level of next charm). Empty charms are worth exactly the same as cost (50% of next level). You can either buy, raid or xp your way up the charm scale as you prefer.
 
More people should check this thread out and weigh in, with all the complaints about exp and pp farming etc nobody should be resistant to ideas that reduce the need to farm either. Already having done it and not wanting other people to have it easier is not a valid reason.
 
Charms are what make the economy work. The problem with this game is the misconception that gameplay only starts at 20 tomes and 1.2m charm. Dumb this game dumb too much and the backbone of the game thats played for years quit as they easily top out.
 
Charms are what make the economy work. The problem with this game is the misconception that gameplay only starts at 20 tomes and 1.2m charm. Dumb this game dumb too much and the backbone of the game thats played for years quit as they easily top out.
Recently in the Citadel thread you complained about exp and platinum rates being subpar and yet across the board Ikisith has been an immense boon in regards to the rate at which you gain both experience and platinum. So you come here and you put forth that making things easier is "dumbing" the game down, and yet on the flip side of things with Ikisith facilitating faster experience and platinum farming you claim these rates aren't high enough. Well which is it Raxton? Which things are dumb exactly? Is it only the stuff you personally disagree with? Because frankly I don't see much logic behind how you seem to judge things. Did the introduction of Ikisith "dumb" the entire game down?

On top of this you claim that charms make the economy work and yet charms incentivize people to farm currency and by way of this they cause more items and money to be introduced to the system so no, in fact, they do not work because while they partially are pulling from a pre-existing build-up of resources they also contribute to flooding the market and by way of that inflate the economy. If you'd like to argue that I'd like to point you in the direction of sellers unable to unload Ikisith droppables which, while being good items, have saturated circulation because people are encouraged to go out and obtain them at as fast a rate as possible. Is this the sole reason? No. But to ignore the role of charm farming in a flooded market is frankly idiotic.

You can argue all you want with whatever rationale you want but even from a design standpoint having charms (which primarily benefit you raiding) be obtained by a method which in no way is tied to raiding is stupid. I mean I hesitated to even respond to you since I imagine you're that guy that considers doing things by any other method than the one you employed to be "dumb", I mean take the system I proposed for example apparently killing 120 on-tier raid mobs to just isn't enough to reach a supreme it's just not "smart" enough. That's probably a system for babies, the only good way to do it is you should spend hours and hours on top of whatever you do farming ikisith droppables to vendor because that's not "dumb".

So next time you stick your nose in to a discussion please bring the heat along with it or don't bother.
 
Also real question how is anything other than farming items and selling them to vendors 'easier' than farming items and selling them to vendors?
 
Lets try to keep this civil Rorne.

There's nothing illogical with my posts. Citadel's reward is too low for the effort required to exp there. So the zone sits relatively empty. Citadel sitting empty causes a Tome2 shortage.

If charms as a plat sink are removed people will accumulate millions of platinum (because theres nothing to spend it on) instead of saving that plat for mains or alts charms. When new rare elite items come out they'll cost hundreds of thousands of platinum instead of thousands of platinum. Items prices are now very close to vendor price because the economy has something to spend money on. The number of items farmed and lack of a seller being around for every item farmed is a poor metric for assessing anything with the economy. There's very few players to sell items to nowadays, they sell its just really slow.

It would really be a shame to reduce the game from three methods of progression charm(money)/gear/exp to only gear/exp. Please dont do this.
 
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I certainly had that idea, but to address both posts above me... the main change would be a drop in the mandatory price floor for items and charms replaced with ANY sort of other plat sink. The 'millions of platinum' would, in this scenario, slowly dwindle.

I appreciate what you are saying about having another method of progression but since you do not farm money at the expense of exp, it's not really like a third and separate avenue. You get money while you exp and, thru guild funds, while you raid.

If there was a place that only dropped money instead of exp or vice-versa then I would be more in line with what you are saying but plat right now is a secondary benefit to nearly any activity on SoD.
 
What if all platinum sinks were eliminated but no new platinum ever entered the economy again?
 
I don't have any place in this convo but there are always random ideas not parsed for desirability:

*make a cheap growing charm
*make it slowly grow to supreme-level with exp or time spent in combat or total playtime or who knows, something more than just raiding but not too specific and quite slow
*let people still buy charms if they can make money faster than they can do whatever would grow a growth charm
*add more raid-level plat sinks, i.e. less restricted rez potions, FD potions, all over 1k each.

I can't believe i'm going to say this but zaela this is brilliant.
Running with this idea. How about different charms for different play styles.
Several different charms that have different stats and gain exp in different ways.
Crafting Charm- that gains exp from only trade skills
Raid charm- Gains exp only from raid bosses (1 exp for t1 2 for 2 3 for 3 ect and up
Farm charm- Charm that gains exp from items sacrificed to it.
Exp charm - Regular exp growing charm
Quest charm - Charm that gains exp from only quests
resist charms- charms that only gain exp in said zone (CR charm exp in everfrost FR charm FG ect...
Cash charm- the same charms we have right now with pp's
Adept Charm- Grows with adept kills

Now you can lower some of the vender prices of goods and people will still be able to get their charms. allow some type of conversion from cash charms to the exp charms. Different charms for different play styles
 
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Yes, that is a good summation of the ideas except I would prefer 1 or 2 lines of charms that grow from all sources so you can kill adepts or tier appropriate targets or complete quests or do tomes or get AA milestones or throw 100k plat in a hole in the ground whatever and it would all build the charm. That charm change (no net loss in player power, more avenues of advancement), lowering the vendor price of droppable loot (blunting degenerate plat-farming), and adding temporary purchasable goodies (real, actual plat sinks as opposed to buyable permanent upgrades). That is the idea as it sits in total.
 
over time the number of times an item will drop tends toward infinity.

I think you're overplaying the significance that removing unbinding is going to have with removing gear from the market, and underplaying the value of lowering vendor prices (especially if the inflation of the floor prices you're talking about removing is nearly as severe as you make it out to be). All things equal, you'll see a huge loot surplus show up a few months after this change, once the market becomes saturated.

Rough sketch of how this will play out: People won't vendor, especially the vets who xp a ton and are used to sitting on 100k+ pp, because they expect some bank from their xp sessions. The market suddenly sees a huge increase in the best droppable loot being player sold. At first the prices remain around what they were before the floor nerfs. The market for the niche of people with cash on hand, in need for those pieces will fill up. The xp sessions still go on, the loot still pours in, rarely ever (never) getting vendored. A surplus starts building, prices slowly drop. The market hits a new niche. This cycle repeats, because the population is relatively small, and the influx of new players doesn't nearly match the influx of loot. Suddenly brand new 65's are scrounging up enough to cover the best droppables. Probably 90% of in game dropables around the 65 range become obsolete entirely after a couple months of this.
 
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First, I do not think unbinding is used very much (in fact a large percentage of the time it IS used is when people try to steal things from their friends and get banned for theft). Second, I think it is unreasonable to assume that every item that drops must always be desirable. Third, I think droppable items are already "mostly obsolete".. I mean pre-Ikisith you had a handful of desirable droppables out there like RSM Robe, HHK basement stuff, Earthshaker loot, and deep FR. The rest was mostly not that useful or desirable even stuff in those same zones you would say "Oh well, didn't get the good drop" and vendor it for 100pp or whatever. With Ikisith, the droppable market increased and, as you say, the "baseline" for desirable droppable loot went up. Fine, of course that happens when you add more of something and aim to make it better. Why is saying "Oh well, didn't get the good drop" and vendoring for 100pp now not good enough?

Also, your scenario maintains the idea that the only thing to spend money on is droppable loot and charms, but what if this was not the case?
 
First, I do not think unbinding is used very much (in fact a large percentage of the time it IS used is when people try to steal things from their friends and get banned for theft). Second, I think it is unreasonable to assume that every item that drops must always be desirable. Third, I think droppable items are already "mostly obsolete".. I mean pre-Ikisith you had a handful of desirable droppables out there like RSM Robe, HHK basement stuff, Earthshaker loot, and deep FR. The rest was mostly not that useful or desirable even stuff in those same zones you would say "Oh well, didn't get the good drop" and vendor it for 100pp or whatever. With Ikisith, the droppable market increased and, as you say, the "baseline" for desirable droppable loot went up. Fine, of course that happens when you add more of something and aim to make it better. Why is saying "Oh well, didn't get the good drop" and vendoring for 100pp now not good enough?

Also, your scenario maintains the idea that the only thing to spend money on is droppable loot and charms, but what if this was not the case?

I understand there is numerous ways changing something this big in an mmo can play out. I'm sure you only wish to make this change to help better the server for the "future". The players are just sceptical because the way items vendor in sod has remanded unchanged for quite some time.

I feel Stral summed up what I foresee happening rather well. People wish to spend their money on the best items they can get their hands on. I don't feel like this is something new, the best items have simply changed over time as newer better items get released into the game. The amount an item vendors for is not always in direct correlation to how good the item is. I feel that many items in the game that are quite amazing have a low value and some items that vendor for a fare amount are rather garbage when compared to other items in the market. That being said it seems like the majority of new players feel that vendor prices should be the only thing looked at when determining the value of an item. This could come from the lack of knowledge on their part but mainly I feel this problem stems from lazy high end players who want to sell the loot they received from their exp group fast and get the split done with.

That is the problem that I feel developers should be looking into. When an exp group is formed it isn't rare that the first thing people do is call out "not it" so they do not have to be the sad soul that is force to right click every dead carcass the party leaves in their wake. In most exp zones a lot of trash loot drops. I believe the main reason for this loot is so the group can gain money from items that are less weight then just having the same value of coin drop. These items also give a bit of lore and or flavor to the zone. As mentioned above coin is heavy and hopefully sod 3.0 comes out and fixes this problem soon.

Untill then perhaps we could work around this problem in some way. Perhaps we could deleted all the trash items that are only destined to head right for the nearest vendor and convert the money that would have been gained from selling these items into just coin. This coin could automatically be "looted" when any player received the exp message from killing the mob. Then the player could have the option, using /cmd commands where this would end up. They could pick to have the money go into their inventory, their bank, or even anyone's inventory that they are grouped with.

Sorry that this is getting long. I'm also on my phone so it's hard to read over what I am typing. I hope that the majority of this text is in English and can be understood by the majority of the people who try to read it.
 
I think this is an interesting take on it (essentially convenience for loss-of-flavor) and also I am glad to see we both technically agree that item values being skewed by artificial vendor price floors screws up true item worth in both directions ("I'm not going to sell that to you for 500pp when it vendors for 1000!" vs "I'm not going to buy that from you for 1000pp when it vendors for 500!").
 
I think this is an interesting take on it (essentially convenience for loss-of-flavor) and also I am glad to see we both technically agree that item values being skewed by artificial vendor price floors screws up true item worth in both directions ("I'm not going to sell that to you for 500pp when it vendors for 1000!" vs "I'm not going to buy that from you for 1000pp when it vendors for 500!").

Except smart players realize when they outgrow the item they "overpaid" for they can go unenchant it and get all their money back so the first scenario should never be a problem.
 
I think this is an interesting take on it (essentially convenience for loss-of-flavor) and also I am glad to see we both technically agree that item values being skewed by artificial vendor price floors screws up true item worth in both directions ("I'm not going to sell that to you for 500pp when it vendors for 1000!" vs "I'm not going to buy that from you for 1000pp when it vendors for 500!").

I don't think zones having "flavor" is a bad thing. I just don't think it should be something that the player has to deal with or work around in the manor that junk loot does. I have no problem with mobs dropping books of lore on why they are in that zone or what happen to them to because so twisted from their original self.

I also understand that a mushroom in overgrowth dropping coin over a chunk of moss is a bit odd. However if that chunk of moss has no purpose other then for a player to loot it and sell it to the vendor 20 feet away I personally could deal with the weirdness of it all. More so if the money you get is truly just automatically put in the destinations of your choice and not "dropping" from the monster you just killed.

Perhaps I am odd in feeling this way, or just very lazy.
 
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