4.3 Loot balancing!

Xoranath said:
While there has been some sliding into different topics, I appreciate that most of you are really trying to have good, constructive discussions. So question here now, looking at most of these posts, if we slightly changed bard sword, adjust the robe's ac some, and took enc off of the other weapon giving them something new and maybe ever so slightly tweaking the sword to make it a little better optimized for other classes, we would be good? Is that the general consensus so far? Just asking......
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I think Horoks should be looked at as well. I think Swifturs idea is a good 1. After thinkin about making a 2nd weapon out of horoks, I realized there is a slight problem that I didn't think of. Potentially double horoks. A idea to solve this would be a 2handed Horoks with the old lifetap proc, or you can just revert the item. If the item gets even a small lifetap with a similar proc-rate, it will be useful in the hands of a mnk.

Just my 2cents, in the end I can live with Horoks as is, I just don't think it leans in the favor or mnks.
 
AngryCow said:
Horok, H2H was the first thing that came to mind that is on some of the MNK/BST items that really benefits one class atm much more than the other, it's not an actual suggestion, but more of an example of how to potentially itemize without straying too far from the original item and giving both classes bonuses while not affecting the other class too heavily.
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(I just got through reading Page 7)

Honestly, I'm not gonna say your wrong for suggesting it, but I will say why its not that great of an idea.

#1: Mnk H2H DPS falls off Hard when you equip a weapon. Literally Horoks DPS > Fist DPS the moment you equip a weapon.
#2 H2H mods for a mnk are easy to get, and currently are decent item setups for the mnk.
#3 (this 1 imo is the most important) The reason to equip a weapon is Stats/Avoidance Boost for Auxing. In essence, when you think of a Mnk equipping a weapon, hes not going for DPS anymore. That option is instantly gone. So in essence, unless you want to over-power Horoks beyond Mnk Fist (which trust me, would require a very strong weapon) its best to just give this item Sustain. It is a good reason to use the weapon, and since Shatter Reality was not OP before it was changed (I mean DIRECTLY before it was changed) I think its a decent idea for a Mnk only Weapon.

Also, as for your BST comment...I mean honestly, you can't group the two classes anymore. If what I've been told by a very good bst is true, the two classes just don't have similar playstyles anymore. Mnks focus on Autos/being Beefy, while Bsts focus on buffing/debuffing/Casting in-between Melee rounds/Mimicing procs&spells. A good weapon for them is a decent ratio with a long delay, and a strong proc for the pet. Maybe, I'm wrong, and the classes are closer together than I think. Either way, its just my 2cents.
 
An idea if the Monk and Beastlord get their own version 4.3 weapon.

Horok, Reality's Kaleidoscope (The proc name makes more since for the weapon, give it a more badass graphic)
Slot: Primary Secondary
Skill: 1H Blunt Atk Delay: 27
DMG: 30 AC: 20
Magic DMG: 2
Effect: Shatter Reality (Melee Proc, 9.4%)
Skill Mod: Riposte +5
STR: +25 STA: +25 CHA: +25 HP: +225
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
WT: 0.0 Size: Small
Class: MNK
Race: ALL

Keep Shatter Reality the same
Change Shattered Recourse
Increase Hit Points by 125 per tick
Increase Discipline by X per tick

******, *********'s Wrath (Make some name, keep the current Horok stats except changing it to Hand to Hand, and give it a badass graphic)
Slot: Primary Secondary
Skill: Hand to Hand Atk Delay: 27
DMG: 30 AC: 20
Magic DMG: 2
Effect: Lure of Lightning (Melee Proc, 9.4%)
STR: +25 DEX: +25 CHA: +25 HP: +225 MANA: +225
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Flowing Thought: +2
WT: 0.0 Size: Small
Class: BST
Race: ALL

On the Beastlord version you could swap the AC:20 for Companion Health VIII.
 
Honestly folks, just making everything past 4.3 more powerful instead of balancing the items is ridiculous. You don't make broken stuff just because something else is broken. Also, bard dps..... why is it everytime anything is discussed about changing something, dps has to be comparable or such and such class just sucks and is useless? Try a fight with no bard and then try the same fight with a bard just play songs, not meleeing. You'll notice a difference. Then do the same fight adding in the bard actually meleeing. Pretty big difference between no bard and a bard meleeing. All classes are not equal at all things. Just a fact. Anyway, not just singling out bards, just trying to point out that comparing classes is never accurate, never will be or we would only have one class and your choice of gear and skills would determine what you did....keep posting ideas those of you who are, by doing so, you are involved in the change loop. As to the length of time this has been an issue.... yes we know it's been a long time, it was a known issue, it was supposed to have been fixed, wasn't, maybe got ignored a little, the reasons it went so long do not matter. What matters is that it is an issue and we are trying to fix it. We want your help in fixing it and we wanted to be above board. Hence this post was started. I am not a dev, don't pretend to be, don't want to be. My job is to make sure folks follow the rules/policies setup, possibly make new rules/policies when applicable, and provide customer service. This is me trying to provide you customer service by facilitating some change in order to make new content easier. It's closer than you think, thus this discussion. There is talk of possibly providing a hard timeframe for new content. That is a delicate situation though. We don't want to say a date and dissappoint, but we also don't want you to think that it is never going to happen soon. Kind of puts us in the damned if we do and damned if we don't. I will let the Dev's decide that. It is their blood, sweat, and tears. Onmcw again, please let's keep this focused on 4.3. Thanks folks, appreciate it.

Admin GM Twist
 
I mean honestly, at the risk of sounding like I'm kissing GM arse following that post, we complain and complain about no transparency, and then when they try to be transparent, half of us commence to bitching... and complaining about inactivity in the past is pointless. They're trying to do stuff now... Reread half this stuff, and then decide how transparent you'd want to be....
 
Xoranath said:
Also, bard dps..... why is it everytime anything is discussed about changing something, dps has to be comparable or such and such class just sucks and is useless?
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In the case of bard 4.3 swords, it adds an avenue of scaling your character that just doesn't really exist before it. If you're bringing one bard on a raid they're most likely going to be playing Fiery/Mots. Neither of those songs scale with instrument mod. Bard dots/bellows do scale with instrument mod/gear/tomes etc, but those simply don't get the same kind of scaling from gear/tomes that other things do. When you combine having the ability to scale 2 kinds of damage, melee and song, it makes progressing your character feel much more rewarding and creates more interesting itemization and gameplay choices. Investing hundreds of hours into a character and seeing incredibly minimal returns to your character power compared to the people around you just doesn't feel good. Maybe Bards aren't meant to do reasonable damage, but you have to give them some way to make it feel like progressing your character isn't wasted time. Turning bards back into a pure support class would make the class less appealing for 6 man content and a very uninteresting character on raids.

Also, when it comes to comparing classes who's primary goal is more or less to do the same thing, its hard not to compare them. In a lot of encounters, a rogue/monk/ranger/wizard/bard/bst etc etc all have the same job of just making shit die. When one class can do this noticeably better than others it feels bad. Classes have lots of interesting utility or synergy with other classes but not a lot of chances to use it on encounters that currently exist. This problem is even more of an issue on 6 man content. When you go to make a group or raid for a difficult encounter, you ask yourself questions like "whats the difference between me bringing a Wizard instead of a Necromancer?" The utility those classes brings doesn't even cross your mind. You think "I'll bring this Wizard instead of this Necromancer because the wizard will do more DPS." The reason people think this way is because difficult encounters aren't balanced around the fact that necromancers can do cool shit like mind wrack, or sustain themselves far better with lifetaps, or FD/DA to be super hard to kill. Until encounters are made that are designed to use class utility like mindwrack/lifetap/FD/Lockpick/Druidportslol, the difference between bringing one class over another simply boils down to how much DPS they do. Its difficult to do this without making it feel like certain classes are required, and without ending up in situations where you bring a class only because that class specific ability is either required or trivializes the encounter. Without spoiling much, transfixed infested on monstro are a good example of a mechanic that can be dealt with by multiple classes, but ends up being dealt with best by enchanters.

So to reiterate on why people care about DPS being comparable, its because its the only thing that most classes bring on the current end game content. You can talk about different classes being different all day long but until you have hard encounters that make classes use the abilities that make them different they all end up filling the exact same DPS role.
 
Comparing classes isn't accurate, but when you look at what they're doing during an encounter and go "What's the difference?" it means comparing classes should be something to consider.
 
This probably deserves its own thread, but this is my first draft of an idea for ench only 4.3 weapon. Basically enchanters are really good when they can be supported by casters, and a lot less strong when they can't. They're also one of the least efficient duoing classes in the game. Removing them from 4.3 sword is a good step. An item focused around use with true giant will help reduce the extreme nature of the enchanter class.

Razikol, Vessel of the Void
Primary
215 DMG | 75 Delay 2hb
Focus Effect: CE3
Hidden Effect: Lose 25% Mana on Equip
25% Proc: Gift of the Old Ones.
+500 HP | +425 Mana
+30 STR/DEX | +50 AGI
-10svAll
5% Critical Strike. -5% Mind Shield. -10% spell ward.
Skill Mod: Double Attack +3
Identify Lore: Perfection is an illusion, there exists only sacrifice.

Gift of the Old Ones
4 tick duration self targeted detrimental
Effect 1: Increase ATK by 150
Effect 2: Increase Melee haste v2 by 40%
Effect 3: Decrease Current mana by 15 per tick
Effect 4: Decrease current mana by 5
Effect 5: Reduce Spell Damage done by 15%
Cast on You: Your mind clouds as your limbs move with uncanny speed.

Basically this item gives you a strong boost to melee DPS, but also drains your mana slightly. It has overhaste that is weaker than boon, giving the enchanter the option to expend more mana to increase their DPS further. Alternatively, it lets them use one of their 2 boon targets on a group mate instead of themselves. The dampening effect is an obvious counter to discourage its use in conjunction with AoD. The mana loss upon equipping is to prevent swapping it in to proc and then swapping it out to a better weapon. The high proc rate is designed to make the buff 100% uptime, but provide a steady but small mana drain. The CE3 is because CE is a focus effect that is quite enchanter specific. Its only rank 3 for balance reasons, and fits with the theme of the item. The other stats on the item are pretty whatever, they're close to similarly tiered items while maintaining the items theme of sacrificing spell based things for melee. I can elaborate more on the design choices if the staff wants but I'm curious as to what other people think about this.

EDIT: Adjusted Weapon Ratio
EDIT2: Adjusted Weapon Ratio Again
 
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I don't think I'd use this weapon, not if it only had CE3. There are already plenty of CE3 options out there. You can get CE4 in Spires as well as focuses found on other 4.3 items, so it would only have CE3 for cosmetic purposes.
I fancy the idea, but the tradeoff isn't that good. If you're sb+booning anyone else but self, you lose a lot of time for your own melee dpsing. Even if you're just doing that for 2 people it's a whole tick of your own buffs lost because of casting and switching targets and lag, maybe more, depending on your hotkeys/reflexes/connection. I don't think enchanters should be 1k melee dps, not at all. This would probably fall into 300 range with all tomes done, while having a very negative effect and only CE3, and you will probably still keep your CE4 item equipped.
The +5% crit strike is pretty moot, all enchanters have more than +10% crit strike by the time they can do 4.3. And other than having the self-buff proc, it has no damage proc. I'd probably use Spire of destruction over it to melee, or the Essence of the mother 1hb and a shield for more stats, because I don't have Verdict. Even in groups that don't contain any casters I always use mana. Be it for sb+boon, debuffs, charms, so a -15 ft would be a big detriment. The only scenario in which I'd use it would be duoing, but then it would need to be more than 300 dps, and such weapons already exist, too, so it would need to have something else going for it.

In conclusion, it would either need to have a much better ratio or better stats/less of negative effect to be used. Or it would need to have a super cool oversized graphic for decorative purposes so everyone could ooh and aaah over it in Athica :)

Edit: written before the edit of the ratio. Still, I think it would be a very situational item, used less than other 4.3 weapons, perhaps like the warrior weapon.
 
tinkaa said:
I don't think I'd use this weapon, not if it only had CE3. There are already plenty of CE3 options out there. You can get CE4 in Spires as well as focuses found on other 4.3 items, so it would only have CE3 for cosmetic purposes.
I fancy the idea, but the tradeoff isn't that good. If you're sb+booning anyone else but self, you lose a lot of time for your own melee dpsing. Even if you're just doing that for 2 people it's a whole tick of your own buffs lost because of casting and switching targets and lag, maybe more, depending on your hotkeys/reflexes/connection. I don't think enchanters should be 1k melee dps, not at all. This would probably fall into 300 range with all tomes done, while having a very negative effect and only CE3, and you will probably still keep your CE4 item equipped.
The +5% crit strike is pretty moot, all enchanters have more than +10% crit strike by the time they can do 4.3. And other than having the self-buff proc, it has no damage proc. I'd probably use Spire of destruction over it to melee, or the Essence of the mother 1hb and a shield for more stats, because I don't have Verdict. Even in groups that don't contain any casters I always use mana. Be it for sb+boon, debuffs, charms, so a -15 ft would be a big detriment. The only scenario in which I'd use it would be duoing, but then it would need to be more than 300 dps, and such weapons already exist, too, so it would need to have something else going for it.

In conclusion, it would either need to have a much better ratio or better stats/less of negative effect to be used. Or it would need to have a super cool oversized graphic for decorative purposes so everyone could ooh and aaah over it in Athica :)

Edit: written before the edit of the ratio. Still, I think it would be a very situational item, used less than other 4.3 weapons, perhaps like the warrior weapon.
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Edited the ratio again. By slowing down the weapon you lose far less melee dps from casting. I think CE3 is more than sufficient for doing all of the content in the game. Control enhancement is a focus effect that you gain 0 value from in a lot of situations and encounters. Even when you are mezzing things, there are a lot of situations where the added duration from the focus doesn't help. If a high tier item had CE3 (or even CE2) I don't think I'd bother to carry around one of the existing CE4 items anymore.
 
I like CE4 for charms in particular. If you don't think much of it, why does it matter if it had CE3 or CE4?
 
Xoranath said:
Honestly folks, just making everything past 4.3 more powerful instead of balancing the items is ridiculous. You don't make broken stuff just because something else is broken.
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Why not though? What's the con here?

How can any dev design a tier 14 fight without it being seriously fucking hard? Why not make it to where if you don't have robes you're going to get smashed? I don't see anyone coming up with harder strategies/mechanics than marza fights so why not bump the numbers up?
 
sabuti said:
Why not though? What's the con here?

How can any dev design a tier 14 fight without it being seriously fucking hard? Why not make it to where if you don't have robes you're going to get smashed? I don't see anyone coming up with harder strategies/mechanics than marza fights so why not bump the numbers up?
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The con here is that designing a whole tier (several tiers actually...) around the concept that a raid has ONE SPECIFIC ITEM (statted items, trigger items are fine!) is a terrible idea.
 
Yea i agree, can we not have bw require jyre to attack? tbh i only half read your post but since other things are being suggested in this thread im going to leave this here
 
tinkaa said:
I like CE4 for charms in particular. If you don't think much of it, why does it matter if it had CE3 or CE4?
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to be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. anyways here's draft round 2 after some suggestions

Razikol, Vessel of the Void
Primary
215 DMG | 75 Delay 1hb
Focus Effect: CE4
Hidden Effect: Lose 25% Mana on Equip
100% Proc: Gift of the Old Ones.
+225 HP | +280 Mana | 35 AC
+30 STR/DEX | +50 AGI
-10svAll
5% Critical Strike. -5% Mind Shield. -5% spell ward. -2 Aggro
Skill Mod: Double Attack +5
Identify Lore: Perfection is an illusion, there exists only sacrifice.

Gift of the Old Ones
4 tick duration self targeted detrimental
Effect 1: Increase ATK by 250
Effect 2: Increase Melee haste v2 by 40%
Effect 3: Decrease Current mana by 10 per tick
Effect 4: Reduce Spell Damage done by 15%
Cast on You: Your mind clouds as your limbs move with uncanny speed.

EDIT: forgot to bump proc rate when changing delay, oops
EDIT2: More tuning
Edit3:buff from 150->250 atk
 
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Tevinter said:
to be honest, it doesn't really matter that much. anyways here's draft round 2 after some suggestions

Razikol, Vessel of the Void
Primary
215 DMG | 75 Delay 1hb
Focus Effect: CE4
Hidden Effect: Lose 25% Mana on Equip
100% Proc: Gift of the Old Ones.
+250 HP | +250 Mana | 35 AC
+30 STR/DEX | +50 AGI
-10svAll
5% Critical Strike. -5% Mind Shield. -5% spell ward.
Skill Mod: Double Attack +5
Identify Lore: Perfection is an illusion, there exists only sacrifice.

Gift of the Old Ones
4 tick duration self targeted detrimental
Effect 1: Increase ATK by 150
Effect 2: Increase Melee haste v2 by 40%
Effect 3: Decrease Current mana by 10 per tick
Effect 4: Reduce Spell Damage done by 15%
Cast on You: Your mind clouds as your limbs move with uncanny speed.

EDIT: forgot to bump proc rate when changing delay, oops
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This is a vast improvement from previous suggestion. I guess less enchanters will be auxing on raids, but at least those with nothing to do will have an incentive to sb themselves (in my guild this will fall on me). I'm not sure I'd call the proc a gift though, maybe an offer or a curse or something else.
If this doesn't fly, I also don't find Lleoc's idea bad to add enc on Soul Shepherd (would probably want to have more than 2 total enc usable healing inc7/8 items I guess, either added to some now or in coming with new content).
 
I was recently feeling the pull to come back and play SoD again. This thread definitely is pushing me away from that. In the past every time a nerf happened to prepare for new content, new content was never provided. I could make a list with references, however, I currently do not have the time.

I feel devs should worry about making the game enjoyable for the few number of people who are still playing. We all clearly love this game and are attached to it. We all have dropped far too many hours of our lives into these pixels.

After years of no new content being added to the game (5+ if I had to guess) let's add a new fun fight over trying to solve world hunger.

What do I know, I'm just a dumb ranger.

Nerfing the robe is probably an alright idea. Just one problem in a long list of things that need to be reworked.
 
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