Just another short thought, but another minor pain that could occur as a result of the downtime lowered is refresh timers on certain abilities, etc. still being down. This could even be worsened (although I imagine now I'm gonna be shot if this ever happened) to balance out whatever is fixed or added to reduce said downtime. It'd be kinda like a new df in a way, but it wouldn't usually totally prevent you from going again before stuff refreshed. Hell, even if having stuff down would give a much greater chance of a wipe than if it was up, at least you're trying something instead of sitting waiting for mana AND said abilities to repop. /shrug
Revisiting downtime
- Thread starter Manguadi
- Start date
This argument is so moot. If a guild is seriously cancelling raids when there are mobs up in Ikisith that they can do they are dumb. The variety or rewards in Ikisith including spells etc is staggering. Half of it is extraslot.
Then again a tier 6 guild would have to be pretty damned balsy
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
But spending over half of your time on a raid night sitting there doing nothing except waiting for rezzes, DF to fade, and medding is not fun. Guilds that have to learn content themselves rather than going in knowing the strats are aware of this, and it kills much of the incentive to try new content. If you could take an hour or two and get a significant number of attempts on a new boss (more than the 2 or possibly 3 per hour as it is) I'm pretty sure guilds would be more willing to try new stuff.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
I know outdoor raid encounters in ikisith span from tier 0-6 if not even higher than that so there is a nice chunk of content for lower tier guilds who get ballsy enough.
Ikisith is a weird situation and I think a lot of guilds have this nebulous image of it in their heads. TU has nowhere to go really other than Ikisith where as other guilds are faced with the option of having to use their brains/figure out a strat or go the old trusted route that basically guarantees them loot until they can obtain the strats from a third party. With the age of the server and how long many of the fights have existed/how pervasive strategies have become I think a majority of players have never had to enter into a fight without at the least a rough outline of what a mob can do. Can I blame players for wanting to do a sure thing with their invested time? No not really but reducing the downtime for wipes would just increase the number of people doing folerit, not the number of people trying new content.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Folerit and the rest of the Farhag wing are generally dead within a day of spawning, so I don't see how reducing wipe recovery time would impact that. Corefire would still be the bottleneck before being able to attempt Farhags, and Corefire is a significant gear check that wouldn't really be suddenly killable if a guild could wipe to him more frequently.
Right now, the upper tier raid content that is not killed regularly consists of roughly this:
UT Air
Thaz 1/2
Undercity
Ikkisith stuff
The reason raid targets are left up is because guilds don't view them as worthwhile from a risk vs reward standpoint. UT Air, Thaz, and UC all have amazing loot and known strats but are generally complex fights with a high learning curve and low margin of error. Having 20+ minutes between each attempt at a new target like these is extremely taxing on morale and motivation. If you could squeeze more attempts into a given timeframe, the odds of a guild deciding to do one of these would go up since they are probably geared for it, they just don't feel like spending the majority of a raid night doing fuck all when they could go exp or kill "easier" targets (Guaranteed reward vs potentially not being able to kill the new target). Guilds would still have to be geared to actually kill the boss, it would just lower the huge timesink currently required to become comfortable with a fight.
Right now, the upper tier raid content that is not killed regularly consists of roughly this:
UT Air
Thaz 1/2
Undercity
Ikkisith stuff
The reason raid targets are left up is because guilds don't view them as worthwhile from a risk vs reward standpoint. UT Air, Thaz, and UC all have amazing loot and known strats but are generally complex fights with a high learning curve and low margin of error. Having 20+ minutes between each attempt at a new target like these is extremely taxing on morale and motivation. If you could squeeze more attempts into a given timeframe, the odds of a guild deciding to do one of these would go up since they are probably geared for it, they just don't feel like spending the majority of a raid night doing fuck all when they could go exp or kill "easier" targets (Guaranteed reward vs potentially not being able to kill the new target). Guilds would still have to be geared to actually kill the boss, it would just lower the huge timesink currently required to become comfortable with a fight.
I love spending my free 'fun' night waiting for rezzes and deathfx
And to think you left work early for this =)
Most games are, it is pretty depressing that sitting around doing nothing is the model of time investment that SoD has decided to take. At least in terms of raiding. Wipe recovery should take at most the time that it takes to run back, rez, buff and go. That is STILL a time investment (bare minimum of 5 minutes if you don't need to run back) its just not an absurd one.
This made me think... SoD must be a pretty easy if people continue to progress through content and waste sometimes over 2 hours a night while doing it.
Personally I think that just having the ability to regain mana with death effects would reduce the amount of downtime to a reasonable level. If you account for 5 minutes of rezzing then the other 5 minutes of death effects would be used to regain mana, rebuffs and your looking at probably 13-14minutes of total downtime which I don't see being that big of an issue.
Allowing res to not reduce mana to 0 would further decrease the time to more like 10minutes. Barring of course any LD's/Crashes/Internet failures of course.
Allowing res to not reduce mana to 0 would further decrease the time to more like 10minutes. Barring of course any LD's/Crashes/Internet failures of course.
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
I think the allowing mana to regen while under death effects is reasonable
How many guilds have beat Hates Fury? All that I know is that TU has and Amicii has not. Are we looking at two other guilds who can realistically raid in Ikisith?
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
The whole point is that you don't have to sit around and do nothing if you don't wipe, which encourages not wiping, which encourages guilds to be at their best which most definitely makes for a better game.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Yeah, I'd be fine with switching the mana regen preventer on death effects to a (spell only) silence, I'm not opposed to making downtime a bit less of a hassle but the tone of this thread was that it should take 5 minutes from a wipe to a new attempt which is just stupid.
all of Bane is flagged for ikisith but we haven't attempted any raid mobs there yet. none of our members are far enough into the MQ to be flagged for the good zones yet imo
Miffy
Dalayan Adventurer
Well.... it really discourages them everytime something goes wrong, it is a negative reinforcement. If anything the punishment for a wipe simply encourages one to do things where wipes are less likely. In other words it steers guildls to the easier and well known content rather than the hard and new. What encourages guilds to play well and not wipe is the simple fact that if you win you get loots, the loots are the encouragement. The vast ammount of time spent buffing/medding/killing trash/wiping/repeating are, in reality, the discouraging factors of the raid game and why not every guild steamrolls right up to top tier. At least killing trash is an active obstacle that can still be seen as "fun", at least one can get better at killing trash or feel like they should play well in order to kill trash more quickly. The real problem I have is that downtime is an extremely boring consequence of raiding, there is nothing you can do to make it take less time (after a certain point) to sit there and watch that blue bar fill up.
PS. I do not think that wipes should take less than 10 minutes to recover from but they also should not take the 20+ minutes they do now. There is a reason we don't lose exp on death here, too extreme of punishment makes the game frustrating and no fun, but having no punishments for screwing up make the game feel trivial and also less fun. The difficult part is balancing the punishment so that the game remains challenging but not disheartening, luckily thats why we have such a great staff!
Last edited:
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Spell only I mean that it blocks all form of casting (including clickies), but allows talking.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
By this logic we should also get rid of meaningful death penalties because they're just discouragement instead of encouragement.
Manguadi
Dalayan Beginner
Halving the amount of time this each wipe cost would still make any normal person
syduck: if you told them how long it took. Besides, consider the reasons you made changes that affect downtime in the first place, namely death effects and meditative trance.Death effects you did because bind rushing was obviously bad and exploitative, not because you didn't feel like people were waiting long enough. Meditative trance you did to make it so people were more involved in fights instead of catching as many cat naps as possible, in effect, to allow players to spend more time playing the game instead of sitting down. Meditative trance should have always been % based, because when it was put in it took minutes less to med than it does with mana bars today.
About consequences, players in wow feel just as penalized for deaths, but it takes less time. There has got to be a certain threshold under which death feels like nothing, and over which it feels like a serious setback, and that time is less than 14 minutes.
I agree with your premise that players should be punished for dying because it makes being alive that much more exciting, I just think we're well past that point.
edit: science pie removed to due grievous abuse
Last edited: