Druid heals

F

Falendar

Dalayan Adventurer
I know there was a discussion on this awhile back dunno where it went, decided to throw one together and and see what people think. This is just base amounts posted for comparison. WALL OF TEXT READ AT YOUR OWN PERIL!


Clerics vs druid heals as it stands.

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druid quick (1.25 cast) heal vs cleric heal(1.1 cast)


druids heals for 3.22 health per mana
cleric heals for 4.65 health per mana

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druid big heal (4sec cast) vs cleric big heal (3.5 sec cast)


druid heals for 5.75 health per mana
cleric heals for 6.83 health per mana
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druid group heal (5.4sec cast) vs cleric group heal (4sec cast)

druid heals 2.61 health per mana
cleric heals 3.41 health per mana
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druid group hot (5 sec cast) vs cleric group hot (5 sec cast)

druid heals for 3.47 per mana
cleric heals for 2.3 health per mana
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druid hot both since they stack( 8 sec total cast) vs cleric hot (2 sec cast)


druid heals 8.02 health per mana

cleric heals 5.71 health per mana
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Ok now that we have the break downs done, let's dicuss. Yes druids are better at hots but their is a few problems that we have to cast 2 hots to the clerics one at 4 times the casting time as well as double the cooldown. second problem with that is hots are best in groups, not raids except at the start, they still help yes but you also see alot more 0-300 heals due to them being healed by another healers heal. these heals can't be ducked and it pure wasted mana and there is no way to avoid it. the druids relic hot is a terrible 3 ticks as well and must be recast frequently taking away from other heals.

these numbers are also a bit inaccurate do to the fact of clerics getting Spell: Archaic: Avatar of Mercy which is a 15% crit heal increase that there is no druid equivalent unless you want to count shape of the earthmother for mana regen which any raid target AoE will take out fast in certain fights and roots us to the spot so it is situational at best.

Clerics should be the best at healing I agree but there is too much of a gap for druids to be comparative like they should be. some idea's that may or may not work. this is what I think the table should be closer to.



Clerics vs druid heals as it should be closer to.

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druid quick (1.25 cast) heal vs cleric heal(1.1 cast)


druids heals for 4.1 health per mana
cleric heals for 4.65 health per mana

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druid big heal (4sec cast) vs cleric big heal (3.5 sec cast)


druid heals for 6.12 health per mana
cleric heals for 6.83 health per mana
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druid group heal (5.4sec cast) vs cleric group heal (4sec cast)

druid heals 2.91 health per mana
cleric heals 3.41 health per mana
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druid group hot (5 sec cast) vs cleric group hot (5 sec cast)

druid heals for 3.47 per mana
cleric heals for 3.12 health per mana
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druid hot both since they stack( 8 sec total cast) vs cleric hot (2 sec cast)
++change druid hot to a single 4.5 second hot that has both types of hot
styles to block stacking that lasts for 5 ticks++

druid heals 8.02 health per mana

cleric heals 7.21 health per mana
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Now I know that the above numbers would need tweaking this is just an example not what I believe it should be 100% this brings bother clerics and druids in close comparison but with clerics remaining on top of single target heals and being probably equal to that of a druids adding to the 15% crit heal bonus and -25% aggro. This would be a simple solution rather then adding tricks to other spells.



other idea's would be to increase our Dot dmg and add a healing recourse to the raid for each tick ( this would be sick but really just a gimmick) having a buff to put on a single target that would heal the target after a strike for a set amount of health and could not happen more the every X amount of seconds) ect ect ect.



OK my holy god wall of text is now done, Thoughts critiques trolls ect welcome.
 
btw with the suggestions I posted I could be off but factoring in cleric innate crit heal % with the 15% self buff and I would think clerics would still have a 20% or higher superiority in heals am I right?
 
all thought i agree with you because druids do need a heal buff to actively compete with clerics in a raid set up. Druids do have more utility than a cleric ports ranged dps etc. I believe thats is the current argument. so basically buff druids direct heals rev etc and buff cleric hots also to make them more efficacious?
 
yes buffing cleric hots is in there, I completely agree that doing to one and not the other would be counter productive and lead to more complaints. as to the utility issue, that's exactly why clerics would still hold a high healing ability than druids due to the other things druids do bring to the table.

here's where i made the hot adjustments as well.

current

druid group hot (5 sec cast) vs cleric group hot (5 sec cast)

druid heals for 3.47 per mana
cleric heals for 2.3 health per mana
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druid hot both since they stack( 8 sec total cast) vs cleric hot (2 sec cast)


druid heals 8.02 health per mana

cleric heals 5.71 health per mana
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proposed

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druid group hot (5 sec cast) vs cleric group hot (5 sec cast)

druid heals for 3.47 per mana
cleric heals for 3.12 health per mana
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
druid hot both since they stack( 8 sec total cast) vs cleric hot (2 sec cast)
++change druid hot to a single 4.5 second hot that has both types of hot
styles to block stacking that lasts for 5 ticks++

druid heals 8.02 health per mana

cleric heals 7.21 health per mana

:edit for a more coherent post, it's almost 4am lol.
 
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I think druids are fine as they are when it comes to direct healing. Druids have healed every fight in the game in place of a cleric since the change to the group heal cast time went in.

If you are stacking both hots on raids, you are probably doing it wrong unless you are trying to waste mana when you have nothing else to do. Pick one or the other to use depending on the fight, and stick with it. Use both hots only if there are two druids in the raid and each casts one of them. Even then, maybe its a waste and one druid just should not hot. As far as healing experience groups goes, use either relic or ancient and big heal when/if needed. I rarely used the ancient hot myself and just used relic in almost every situation.
 
Radaere you told me nothing I didn't already know, I know you were trying to be helpful so thank you for that. You are one of the elite, not every toon has a 10k mana pool and over 60tomes and the best focus effect completed so yes, I am sure you can pull that off just fine but for the lower tiers pulling that off the same doesn't work and it's better for the group to have a cleric in group.(hence when someone loads a heal box, it's generally a cleric unless they have access to a better geared druid. comparing the numbers and having played both cleric and druids on the same tier the differences are rather big and if I remember right even a dev agreed and had said something about working on it. though I could be mistaken. If I had the time I would get exact numbers and theorycraft up some exact healing comparisons, maybe I will later but going on 30hrs without sleeping.

Now here's a simple question for you, If you could only take 3 healers to a pretty decently hard fight, do you think 3 druids would do remotely as well as 3 clerics, or even 2 druids/1cleric to 2clerics 1 druid, if you think about it honestly, the answer is no.



Radaere said:
I think druids are fine as they are when it comes to direct healing. Druids have healed every fight in the game in place of a cleric since the change to the group heal cast time went in.

If you are stacking both hots on raids, you are probably doing it wrong unless you are trying to waste mana when you have nothing else to do. Pick one or the other to use depending on the fight, and stick with it. Use both hots only if there are two druids in the raid and each casts one of them. Even then, maybe its a waste and one druid just should not hot. As far as healing experience groups goes, use either relic or ancient and big heal when/if needed. I rarely used the ancient hot myself and just used relic in almost every situation.
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Falendar said:
Radaere you told me nothing I didn't already know, I know you were trying to be helpful so thank you for that. You are one of the elite, not every toon has a 10k mana pool and over 60tomes and the best focus effect completed so yes, I am sure you can pull that off just fine but for the lower tiers pulling that off the same doesn't work and it's better for the group to have a cleric in group.(hence when someone loads a heal box, it's generally a cleric unless they have access to a better geared druid. comparing the numbers and having played both cleric and druids on the same tier the differences are rather big and if I remember right even a dev agreed and had said something about working on it. though I could be mistaken. If I had the time I would get exact numbers and theorycraft up some exact healing comparisons, maybe I will later but going on 30hrs without sleeping.

Now here's a simple question for you, If you could only take 3 healers to a pretty decently hard fight, do you think 3 druids would do remotely as well as 3 clerics, or even 2 druids/1cleric to 2clerics 1 druid, if you think about it honestly, the answer is no.
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I played through all the tiers also and yes as a druid it is hard, but I was stuck group healing with a longer cast time than today. Honestly, with the group heal cast time lowered, druids can much more easily replace clerics as a group healer. But outside of some 6man fights on-tier, I don't think there is any group content that specifically requires a cleric. If you are just grouping for experience, there is no reason you can't have a druid heal. Raiding on tier monsters, of course 3 clerics is going to be the best. But it is absolutely possible to drop a cleric or two for druids.
 
I am not saying we can't do it I am saying we can't do it with near the efficiency that we should be able to. I also am not saying make us clerics, just close the gap a bit. I think my proposal is not entirely without merit.


Radaere said:
I played through all the tiers also and yes as a druid it is hard, but I was stuck group healing with a longer cast time than today. Honestly, with the group heal cast time lowered, druids can much more easily replace clerics as a group healer. But outside of some 6man fights on-tier, I don't think there is any group content that specifically requires a cleric. If you are just grouping for experience, there is no reason you can't have a druid heal. Raiding on tier monsters, of course 3 clerics is going to be the best. But it is absolutely possible to drop a cleric or two for druids.
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Again Druids vs. Cleric heals ?

Happily ignoring all the utility Druids got??

If anything they should tone down Druid heals and make Cleric HoTs lasting 5 ticks as well.
... and give Shammies group heals.
 
The gap isn't really that big, and as Ynnear (and many others) mention here and/ or in the previous (now trash canned) thread, both cleric and druids have their own strengths. I know personally I would have a Druid over Cleric in exp groups 9/10 times. It makes farming, exping, and sniping named unbelievably easy. Considering that is what you are doing most of the time in this game, it seems pretty good. You raid only a small part of the total time you play SoD.

Clerics are better in raid situations, in general. Faster heals, more powerful, and less mana. Druids have the superior HoT(s) and a slower big heal. They are still very viable. My current guild takes 3 Druids on nearly every raid and we do absolutely fine. I wouldn't even say it's slightly harder, just different. Spires, Sanctum, Abyss, and Yclist to give you and idea.

I understand Druids in general would love a heal buff in some way, be it faster (re)cast or bigger heals but it really isn't necessary. One class has a slight advantage for a short period of raiding, but it really isn't so bad the higher tier you get.

I sure would love ports and succor on my Cleric, but I know that won't be happening. It should be safe to assume the same applies to these heal buffs you want.
 
I agree with jolly for everything other that raiding a Druid is preferred to a cleric, but raiding a cleric is preferred. I think Druids are just fine the way they are. They just asked to be buffed and the group heal casting time was reduced should be happy with that.
 
Druid Heals, Trainee Quests and Cyrtho Malath

Druid Heals:

Druidic healing has been overhauled with the new addition of the Soothe healing over time line. Specific changes are as follows:

The spells Soothe (L19) and Greater Soothe (L44) have been added to Druid spell vendors.

Circle of Soothing (L63), a group heal over time, now drops from appropriate monsters throughout the game.

Ancient:Nature's Soothing is now a heal over time spell in the Soothe line (meaning it does not stack with other Soothe spells).

Relic: Sihala's Empathy is now a heal over time spell in its own line (meaning it stacks with all other heal over time spells).

Revitalize and Chloroshock have been increased in efficacy in response to the loss of heal per second caused by the change to the Druid relic and ancient listed above.

A single target druid buff is in the works for next patch that will further a druids single target healing abilities - albeit much less so than these changes.


[removed some parts]
Tue 09/11 2010 - Woldaff


yes it was known that changing the druid heals to hots would make the druid a lesser healer than it was... from the start.

the buff that would help that has never been seen, but we did get a slight faster Gheal. still not single target heal help that was needed.
 
One thing that has come out of these threads where we say the same things over and over again is that I heal completely differently than most other druids, which is pretty interesting imo.
 
i've played on both classes, when druid quick heal crit heals for 3kish to a clerics 6kish and a much noticeably higher crit chance i consider that a pretty big freaking gap. If you have a cleric and a druid equally geared healing a dummy that was say at perma 1% what do you think the % gap in healing would be if they healed it till oom? I would say probably around 50%? maybe more, where taking in utility for the group or raid being DS which depending on the fight a mage cast over druid for the res buff, regen which is nice for the raid, and wolf form when it's permitted, but not very often and resists which again is a good buff. I would say having a 20% gap in healing between the two would not be unwarranted.
 
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You ate Argueing with arbitrary numbers. Every encounter in the game has been done by a Druid, clerics sole role is to heal and they should be the best in my opinion the gap is too close. For exp/farming which is 90% of the game for most people a Druid is preferred.
 
It seems that what you're really asking is for some tweaks to the utility of a Druid, not really the heals them self. Why else would you bring up using a mage DS over druid, wolf form, etc.

Making Druid DS a bit more useful would be nice, adding something to it would make it worth the choice (Mage vs. Druid). I don't want to say AC, because then it will be the only choice... but something.

Wolf form is good as is, just everyone prefers FoE because of the lev and see invis (at least I do, plus I'm not a melee). Monks, Rangers, Rogues, and maybe a few other classes love (or should love) Wolf form.

Druid regen is the best in the game. I don't know why you'd be unhappy with it. It has a great duration, good HP regen, good stamina regen. All in all a great spell.

WoN, another spell that most wouldn't live without. If you are a caster at all you likely use this spell. Spell AC, Mana regen, and HP. A good package in my opinion.

If you get far enough into the game and get Runic 1/2 you have a great a great group heal with low cast time AND a super AoE dmg spell with dot and snare effect. These are AMAZING, no other word for it.

Druids get AAs that reduce damage dealt to you, through Barkskin and Oakskin. Melee only, but still nice.

Lets not forget the ability to port to any corner of the world, with or without a group and track zones for named/ cash mobs. Why bring a cleric and be blind while farming? Just bring a druid who can heal better for farming (HoT/ Double HoT - run and pull. No fear of dying because of pulling to many and being back stunned). Want to get to a named quick and not worry about those pesky mobs in between? No problem, lets invis up and run there. No big

Oh no! We've pulled to many/ invis wore off and we have a train?? Exodus out and live another day.

I feel these together make your lack of healing power for a while manageable. Personally I would love to have some of these abilities on a Cleric, but I know it'll never happen.
 
the utility itself is fine, i was asking for tweaks to heals not to utility, there is plenty of utility already in the game with other classes, tweaks to the heals would be the easiest way of doing it rather then adding in entirely new spells or ability. and the group argument can go both ways as i've played both in groups, with druid pulled some a trucker or two more than intended? exodus reclear ect while cleric on the other hand, switch to quick heals and just burn some extra mana healing it and med. port to all over the world yes, but with necks and mop it's not a be all get all. druids get aa's to reduce dmg while wearing leather, clerics instead get plate armor with much better ac which probably brings us to about even. runic 1 for both classes are pretty much dead even except in the case where we end up having to cast our more then clerics. and yes runic 2 does look great but no raid is going to tell the druid to dps instead of heal on a boss. As for wolf form I agree it is nice, but you have to be in an outside zone for it to be of use so spires ect is a no go.
Won is fantastic but at the same time so is Raego so it's a null point there. I never said to put us on the same par I said bring us the same bar just increase healing would solve alot of issues that I see, clerics would still retain the best cast times, heal crit% by a huge margin but the base healing would be comparable, I don't see why this would be in any way overpowering or out of reason.
 
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Sounds like you want all your neat knick knacks as a druid, and a cleric's to boot.

I guess I didn't really make my point. You have a lot of great things, because you're not solely a healer as a Cleric is. I feel like if you want more healing power, you should be giving something up. I'm not seeing this so far.

You don't want to be equal to Clerics in heal, but close. Well I don't want to be able to have all the Druid's perks, just some. Let me Port around and Track on my Cleric. I don't need the wolf form or the regen.

Does that seem kinda ridiculous? Well it's essentially what I feel like you're asking. Druid's are good as is. Not great, but it has it's niche. Same as any other class.
 
except the fact that in groups and raids we are just healers for the most part with a few extra buffs that's why I feel healing should be closer. If i was asking hey, make our crit % to within 5% and our casting times the same as well then I think I would be asking way to much but a 20-25% difference seems incredibly reasonable. we get the extra stuff that druids do so we should not be equal so I think 3/4 the healing is a fair amount. the devs already stated that druids were not where they should be on healing and would be adding something in to close the gap, my main point being is don't add something in, just increase the base heals, it's a quick and simple fix.



Vitali said:
Sounds like you want all your neat knick knacks as a druid, and a cleric's to boot.

I guess I didn't really make my point. You have a lot of great things, because you're not solely a healer as a Cleric is. I feel like if you want more healing power, you should be giving something up. I'm not seeing this so far.

You don't want to be equal to Clerics in heal, but close. Well I don't want to be able to have all the Druid's perks, just some. Let me Port around and Track on my Cleric. I don't need the wolf form or the regen.

Does that seem kinda ridiculous? Well it's essentially what I feel like you're asking. Druid's are good as is. Not great, but it has it's niche. Same as any other class.
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