Shaman as a healer.

make both relic stat buffs a single buff and then give shamans a pbaoe slow relic congrats bards are done.

On the plus side you only haveo ne shitty buff to click when some bad monk demands stats now.
 
make both relic stat buffs a single buff and then give shamans a pbaoe slow relic congrats bards are done.

On the plus side you only haveo ne shitty buff to click when some bad monk demands stats now.

New spell for shammy: Runic: OMG STATS
 
I already showed you that slow doesnt mean that much. But thats fine, as i said before, i dont want the tank to vaporize if the mob is not slowed, but anyone claiming that you cant do anything with out slow, is dead wrong.

In one attempt against 4.3 with out any slow in the group what so ever, we managed to get it down to 7-8% as i recall (at that point you dont really take any melee damage, its just all mad AE damage)...

Slow helps, for sure, but rarely as much as aux'ing does, and it wont do shit to reduce spell damage or special attacks (and thats fine, i dont want groups to be dead depending on having slow, but ffs stop making it out as if thats the case).
 
Nobody is saying slow is the end all be all of SoD existence, but it does make a difference for allot of fights, far more than you would try to lead others to believe.
 
I have also done Gloom way more times with out slow than with slow (perhaps the bard slowed it, not sure).
When we did try and fit in a Shaman for Gloom as the 2nd healer, well it just wouldnt happen. We ended up dropping a dps, having the shm try and pass for a DPS, and have a Druid help with heals, and we won (with the Shaman dead for the last 35% of the fight as i recall).

Also tried Rohk with a Shm as 2nd healer, he was not very useful....

Slow doesnt matter that much in way most 6 man stuff you do. On raids who cares, there is almost always an Enchanter or Bst to cover it, and they should.

Saying "Shaman's are fine as healers, cause they can slow, so they dont need to be able to heal a single target nearly as efficient as a Druid nor do they need any sort of group healing" is just wrong.
 
Assessing the true value of slow overall (not just on best or worst case scenarios) is important as i often hear slow used as the justification for weak healing. I almost never use slow outside raiding as its a waste of cast time and mana is better spent healing or dotting.
 
Also look at what im asking for here, its not much.

Runic1, drop the slow and snare, so Shaman's will actually use this.
Relic Woundbane, have it scale closer to a lvl 63 druid "dropped by trash all over" spell.
Runic2, i dont know, perhaps leave it as is.

If the r1 was actually more desirable to cast, the shm might wanna use r2 more (expecialy if the Shm happen to be an Ogre....).
But id rather see it take the place of our lvl 62 fast heal. I think the fast heal with a group heal chance idea i had, would make the shm alot more fun, and as its not a guarenteed g heal nor a very big heal, Druid nor Cleric should feel threatened in there "if you want to beat heavy AE fights, you must bring atleast 2 clerics and/or Druids" posistion.
 
make both relic stat buffs a single buff and then give shamans a pbaoe slow relic congrats bards are done.

On the plus side you only haveo ne shitty buff to click when some bad monk demands stats now.

This would be super awesome, I'd even go so far as to say toss acumen in there too. With a lot of recent changes more classes are benefitting more from stat buffs etc and with the increasing number of amazing recourses I don't think it would be out of line at all to combine some relic buffs into "megabuffs" to free up some buff slots.

My amazing list of things that eat buff slots (the melee version):
Vortex - lotta clickin
That necro Thing - more clickin
Succubus - hope you clicked the above fast enough for this to land
Blinkonian and his goddamn Dilated Shelter
BP Spell Rune procs
Tranquil Malice procs
Dragonsword (fuck yeah)
Warcry (this is still around right?)
Gruplock rods
Somatic Bond
Flames of Rage
Concealed Strikes
Xene proc
Cull Soul
Yaulp II (Suck it Giant-killers)
Already tired of making this list. There's more I'm sure.

Anywho the short side of it is with the evolving game static buffs (because that's exactly what they are) need to evolve too and making shaman buffs not require 2 full spell sets would be the best thing since death fatigue revamps.

And finally my appeal on behalf of the pre-65 community: It's been brought up before, some shaman buffs are damn near blinking by the time full shaman buffs are done and it's awful. I would propose making the lower level shaman buffs semi-combined like the current relic buffs then making the relic buffs (say str/dex/agi/sta/acumen*wink*) all one big shot buff.

I'm not sure what to replace the then-void relic with for shamans, a better rez seems cheesy, a slow seems potentially redundant. Something DPS oriented might be cool (idk I'm not a shaman) or a canni over time, or something utility related that I can't think of right now.

None of this would really result in increasing the power of the shaman class (let's face it, shamans are amazing) but it would result in removing a bit of pain and suffering.

HEY it would free up a ton of spell IDs too yeah? Yeah it would. (Lookin at you, 50 low lvl shaman individual stat buffs)

My final final example is my favorite game ever, Dungeons and Dragons (the real D&D not that online thing) where you can either get +4 individual stat buffs or you can conserve spell slots and cast Animilistic Power which is like all your melee stats but only +2 or something.

idk just my 2 cents (I'm out of copper I don't play online games anymore sorry :dumbsad: )


tl;dr - This is now a Spiderbuff thread
 
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Just saying "Apple's and Oranges, i rest my case" is a bit dumb though, cause after all they are both single target heals, and almost always there will be a tank who needs this healing.

I can say that you are not comparing two like things because.. you are not comparing two like things.

As for Can5...
Gives 1066 mana every 3 minuts (+2.5 sec cast time + you might miss that its up), thats 1066 per 30 ticks, thats about 35 mana regen extra.

Wiki has the recast of AA Canni at 69 seconds, if that is incorrect someone should update it. I never go by the recast in the AA tooltips because those are not accurate.

So what can the Shaman do with it? He cant group heal, cause he dont have that spell.
(and to clarify, i dont want a group heal. Just remove the drawbacks from runic1, and do something about runic2. My suggestion for runic 2 is a hybrid group heal, but its not a guaranteed group heal).

Because you do not have a group heal to cast (that is what Clerics/Druids are for) you end up casting more single target heals than any other priest class, but you have the best mana regen in the entire game, meaning you are ideal for healing tanks which is the healing niche for shaman. In the case you bring 2 Shaman, luckily they can do almost as much DPS as a monk and can be a backup Shaman in the instance the other dies.

He can single target heal. So lets see what Druid hots costs over 3 minuts, and what Shm heal costs....
Shaman can cast 31 Woundbanes (with CSI 7) in 3 minuts, for 8835 mana.
Druid sustaining 2 hots for 3 minuts will cost 5175 mana. (For 8835 mana the Shm gets 51150 heal, Druid gets 41850, so Druid would have to cast 4.5 revitalize at 340 a pop, total mana 6705)
So that 1066 extra mana is fast equalized, as after 3 minuts the Druid would spend 6705 mana, and the Shaman 8835-1066= 7769.
Thats 1064 less mana for the Druid even with can5 aided Shaman...
(Also keep in mind, this free's up the Druid to cast loads of other spells, while the Shaman can not)

I don't know how many times I will have to say this before you get it. Druid HoTs are by far the most mana inefficient heals in the game. STOP USING THEM IN YOUR COMPARISONS. They heal the target every 6 seconds, if you ever look at specifically a tank's (since they are the primary recipients) healthbar it will spike wildly every second. If you are casting a single target heal, you can duck it right before it lands if the tank is topped, not wasting your heal. If you are a druid and you have a HoT on the tank and it ticks when he is topped, it is entirely wasted.

I can also do some DPS math, but long story short, Shm would win vs. 1 target, Druid would win big if 3 or more (Druid Runic2 is pretty damn nice).

Druids would not win big at all, you can out dps a druid on 2-3 targets with rains, plaguewind, and cycling your relic dot. Cataclysm is not a reliable source of DPS as it is far more aggro than anyone but a SK could possibly generate (if the SK has veil up) even if used sparingly with Nightfire this is not better DPS than a Shaman could do (same tier/equipment/tomes etc.).
 
I can say my level 55 shaman is a better healer than zedaine but it doesn't make it true.
 
If a shaman is not good enough as a second healer for any fight then maybe you should reassess who your primary healer is for those fights.
 
Wiki has the recast of AA Canni at 69 seconds, if that is incorrect someone should update it. I never go by the recast in the AA tooltips because those are not accurate.
The spell parser also have it at 69 seconds, but funny thing is, the AA ability will only let me click it every 3 minuts.
So yeah the Can5 is not even half as good as you "OMFG THAT THING IS TO OP, DONT LET SHM HAVE ANYTHING ARRRR" though.


I don't know how many times I will have to say this before you get it. Druid HoTs are by far the most mana inefficient heals in the game. STOP USING THEM IN YOUR COMPARISONS.

If this is true, then we really should conform back to the old Druid healing system, since Druids wouldnt use Hots at all (but its not true, is it...).


Druids would not win big at all, you can out dps a druid on 2-3 targets with rains, plaguewind, and cycling your relic dot. Cataclysm is not a reliable source of DPS as it is far more aggro than anyone but a SK could possibly generate (if the SK has veil up) even if used sparingly with Nightfire this is not better DPS than a Shaman could do (same tier/equipment/tomes etc.).

Alright, i see i have to show you just what this spell does.
Runic: Cataclysm
430 mana
5.5 seconds cast time (recast of 7 seconds).
Targeted AE (3 targets), AE range 25 (pretty small, but thats actually nice, so you dont get your self as the 3rd target.)
Cast 3 spells..

Earthquake:
Magic neg 200
Decrease Hitpoints by 960
Decrease Hate by 225

Hurricane:
Magic neg 100
Decrease Hitpoints by 244
Stun (4.00 seconds)
Decrease Mana by 100

Flood:
Cold neg 80
9 ticks dot.
Decrease Hitpoints by 296 per tick
Decrease Movement Speed by 45%
Destroy Target (Max level 39)
Decrease Attack by 100

Against 3 targets (total), thats 3612 DD damage, 888 damage a tick, not to mention 4 sec stun, 45% snare and it decrease the hate by 225.
If they chain it, they could cast it a little faster than every 12 seconds, but lets just say it goes off every 12 seconds, meaning the DoT would atleast tick twice, so 5388 every 12 seconds.

Thats raw numbers, with out tomes or focus ect, a good Druid should atleast dubble that most likely even more with crits, but lets ignore that its still 10776 damage every 12 seconds, thats 898 dps, for 430 mana every 12 seconds (can also cast an other spell for 7 seconds so can even do some healing).
(If you just look at the Burst DPS of it, 4.73 sec cast time (with CSI 7), does 7224 DD damage, thats just over 1500 dps, but its only true for 4.73 seconds)

The 4 second stun probably also reduce the mobs dps more than Shm slow ever would....

Oh and 1 shm relic dot is 500 mana, does a total of 2475 base, so 4950 dubble'd up, takes at very best 18 seconds to deliver (with 1st tick on dot land), making max dps 275.
If there was 3 targets, it would max do 825 dps. Chaining 3 targets for 24 seconds would cost 1500 mana, compared to the Druids 860, which would almost do dubble the dps (didnt take cast time in to account for the Shm doing 3 dots, he would only get 1 target with all 4 ticks in 18 seconds. He would actually max get 4 + 3 + 2 ticks).
 
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Oh as for your Plagewind and AE theory, first of all, let me just DENIED you on the rain, by introducing a counter from the Druids arsenal!

Blizzard, does 10% less damage, but is 2.5 seconds faster cast, otherwise nearly identical (adding that in to the 12 second rotation stated earlier, the druid could probaly do an other 245 dps on top of the 898...)

Cast time is really the problem with Plaguewind (7.75 seconds cast time) and Torrent of Poison (6 seconds cast time).
Casting those two spells will take you (with CSI 7 and 2x recast so you can now start your relic dots..) 16.825 seconds to cast, and you will have gotten 2 ticks off from Plaguewind (270 damage base), and your rain (540 damage base) might have done 1 or 2 waves, all this while the Druid has already done over 13k damage, and laughing at your effords...

Granted though that Plaguewind will do 450 DPS if its ticking on 5 targets. If there was 5 targets however, the Druids 2nd (3rd...) R2 dot could end up affecting more targets, and its dot ticks for 296 per tick, its also 9 ticks like Plaguewind, and Plaguewind costs 915 mana to cast...
I like Plaguewind, but its soo slow to cast, and recast is also insane slow (24 seconds), so you wont be able to affect say 8 targets as fast/easy as you would with Druid R2.
 
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The spell parser also have it at 69 seconds, but funny thing is, the AA ability will only let me click it every 3 minuts.
So yeah the Can5 is not even half as good as you "OMFG THAT THING IS TO OP, DONT LET SHM HAVE ANYTHING ARRRR" though.




If this is true, then we really should conform back to the old Druid healing system, since Druids wouldnt use Hots at all (but its not true, is it...).




Alright, i see i have to show you just what this spell does.
Runic: Cataclysm
430 mana
5.5 seconds cast time (recast of 7 seconds).
Targeted AE (3 targets), AE range 25 (pretty small, but thats actually nice, so you dont get your self as the 3rd target.)
Cast 3 spells..

Earthquake:
Magic neg 200
Decrease Hitpoints by 960
Decrease Hate by 225

Hurricane:
Magic neg 100
Decrease Hitpoints by 244
Stun (4.00 seconds)
Decrease Mana by 100

Flood:
Cold neg 80
9 ticks dot.
Decrease Hitpoints by 296 per tick
Decrease Movement Speed by 45%
Destroy Target (Max level 39)
Decrease Attack by 100

Against 3 targets (total), thats 3612 DD damage, 888 damage a tick, not to mention 4 sec stun, 45% snare and it decrease the hate by 225.
If they chain it, they could cast it a little faster than every 12 seconds, but lets just say it goes off every 12 seconds, meaning the DoT would atleast tick twice, so 5388 every 12 seconds.

Thats raw numbers, with out tomes or focus ect, a good Druid should atleast dubble that most likely even more with crits, but lets ignore that its still 10776 damage every 12 seconds, thats 898 dps, for 430 mana every 12 seconds (can also cast an other spell for 7 seconds so can even do some healing).
(If you just look at the Burst DPS of it, 4.73 sec cast time (with CSI 7), does 7224 DD damage, thats just over 1500 dps, but its only true for 4.73 seconds)

The 4 second stun probably also reduce the mobs dps more than Shm slow ever would....

Oh and 1 shm relic dot is 500 mana, does a total of 2475 base, so 4950 dubble'd up, takes at very best 18 seconds to deliver (with 1st tick on dot land), making max dps 275.
If there was 3 targets, it would max do 825 dps. Chaining 3 targets for 24 seconds would cost 1500 mana, compared to the Druids 860, which would almost do dubble the dps (didnt take cast time in to account for the Shm doing 3 dots, he would only get 1 target with all 4 ticks in 18 seconds. He would actually max get 4 + 3 + 2 ticks).

Because of the aggro (which is a little better now), the fact that invuln/rooted mobs will start summoning when snared, another fact that outside of exp there is rarely any situation where there are more than a couple monsters to hit to make it worth casting, and one last fact that druids spend most of their time casting heals on raids, Cataclysm is still incredibly situational. Since I got Cataclysm, it has only made me better at things I already drastically over tier, and has been useful on not a single encounter at or even close to the tier I got it nor any since (Well I guess it would make me good at that rat lord boss in Yclist?). In fact, with Cataclysm, I have wiped raids and groups on every tier 13 encounter in the game, besides maybe Blazewind.

Trying to argue that druid dps is better than shaman dps because druids get Cataclysm is on or around the same level of retarded as comparing druid hots to shaman single target heals.

I mean, really, what part of the game do you think shamans are lacking in most? Experience groups in Citadel? 18 man raids? 6 man content? Your posts make it seem like you think shamans are lacking in all aspects of this game.
 
Snake you really don't understand anything about the druid class.

Cataclysm is insta agro. end of story I don't even have it and i know this because well I've watched it in use. Don't use cataclysm in dps comparisons if you want to mainly talk about high end 6 man encounters

druid/shm have same heals till 55 because well we are a spell set behind cleric on heals till 55 then the classes really start to fill there rolls not just need a healer roll.

are you really saying canni 5 isnt stupid powerfull? is there a single other person on the server that agrees with you no I don't think so.

The druid 63 spell I think was buffed when the HoT change went in becuase druids needed at least a somewhat decent single target heal with HoTs becuase hots are nice in groups with chain pulls the tank drops to 50% you hot and watch him go back up in a raid situation HoT's suck and most druids on teir couldn't keep a relic hot on the MT or go oom on top of what everyone else expects which is chain big heals ducking at the last second because someone elses heal landed .2 seconds before your's. With Hots you loose the ability to duck and most of the time it is normaly 4 ticks of partials heals and 4 ticks of 0 if the other healers are doing there job.

Edit: removed attacks because i thought better of it
 
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I mean, really, what part of the game do you think shamans are lacking in most? Experience groups in Citadel? 18 man raids? 6 man content? Your posts make it seem like you think shamans are lacking in all aspects of this game.


Yeah they are lacking all over imo, atleast at higher tiers....

Their slow is to slow to be any good in exp (i dont care much, i probably wouldnt use it anyway).
Their g healing is non existing, and that makes them not able to heal exp groups efficiently (if you say you dont need g healing for exping, your saying that Clerics and Druids never use g heals in exp groups, which is a lie. The more healing you have, the more throttle you can give).
They do have decent DPS, but for 6 man content or raid, they are really there as a healer (buffer and slower too). And seriously, they arent good DPS, if you need a DPS bring a real one.


They are, well imo, ment as a healer class, but you can not interchange them even as 2nd healer with a Druid or Cleric in most higher tiered fights (6 content, aka Gloom, Rohk and 4.3 ), where all that comes out is lots and lots of AE damage (be it spell, adds, WW or what ever).
I dont think they should be totally interchangeable with Clerics or Druids, but just being able to do the R1 with out killing the groups dps and mobility, would make them a tad more desirable.


As i see them, they are best in a duo, healing a dps/tank/pet and doing some dots at the same time.
They do ok healing spam on tank in raids, but alot of it is lost in spam, or would have been caught by a Druid or Cleric heal anyway (this holds less true if the Druids/Clerics are good at ducking their heals).
 
are you really saying canni 5 isnt stupid powerfull? is there a single other person on the server that agrees with you no I don't think so.

What does it matter if you have endless mana, if you cant counter 100 AE DPS on group?
What does it matter if you have endless mana, if you cant counter 600 DPS on tank?

Oh Can5 is not endless mana, and its not stupid powerful, if it was, would the devs make tomes that increase it by 10%? jeez...
Yes its a good spell, yes i love it, no it doesnt mean i can interchange with a Druid or even a Paladin when it comes to group healing.

I know it can be hurtful when your doctrines are challenged. But if you just react in anger with out knowing why, it is most likely because i said something which you can see is true, but your doctrines tells you the opposite.
 
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I'm sorry but shamans are absolutely fine as a class. Sure, some small things could be done to help with ease of use, like condensing stats into one buff, but as a whole they fill a very powerful role in raids and groups when played properly.
 
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