Shaman as a healer.

Snake,

I do not think anyone can fault you with insincerity but your calculations and arguments are narrowing in on a small sampling of your classes overall skill set in order to make your point in a vacuum.

Healing is one of many attributes a Shaman has that differentiates it from the other healers. Slow is a major one and regardless of what you say - an extremely effective one. Shaman DPS is higher on the aggregate than the other two priest classes as well. Shaman's also have the highest mana regen in the game by a large margin. This means that even though you can not always keep up in heal per second with the other priests, you almost always win as far as longevity of healing goes. That means when you do have enough throughput to keep the tank up you can do so for a much, much longer time than the other priests.

Pointing to singular spells or sets of spells and declaring that shaman heals are broken is not the appropriate scale you need to make your argument in. If you want to argue that shaman need a change then you have to be more holistic in your reasoning, taking in the different aspects of when a group would want to take each specific class. You also need to count in utility, healing, damage, longevity and everything else that goes into balancing decisions.
 
quote Waldoff:
"Slow is a major one and regardless of what you say - an extremely effective one."

It is very situational and even disadvantegous when xp'ing by reducing damage mobs take from damage shields.
Also in a raid you need exactly one slower,where as you can never have enough Clerics/Druids(besides the limit of 3 of any class in a group/raid).

And let me clarify,I am NOT for giving shammies (or any other classes) overpowered abilities,
it is just that the balance which once existed among the 3 Priest classes was serioulsy
messed up with Druids getting *stackable* HoTs which last even *6* ticks now.
Druid now is a must have in hard enviroments or raids,where as you can replace
the Shammy with another (admittingly 2nd class) slower.

And excuse me,but that the shammy *relic* big heal heals for less than the Druid 63 big
heal is ridiclous.
Also why do Druids get a 50% res and Shammies only 25%?

My suggestions to restore balance would be reduce Druid HoT duration to 4,remove Druid
group HoT(stepping too deep into Cleric territory,imho) and give shammies real group heals.
 
So I should probably start a new thread, but is there any argument against the combining of the two relic stat buffs, besides maybe what to replace one of them with? I think the simplest idea, and one that would go along the same lines as the shaman as dps argument and I don't think would make them anymore supposedly OP, would be to do a relic version of a disease dot. I don't know if that would step on maybe necros toes though.

As for the runic 1 argument, is there a huge argument against removing the slow component at least so you at least don't get pigeonholed into permanent caster group healer?
 
combine the stat buffs would be awesome, removing the snare/slow affect of runic 1 would be awesome( or atleast the slow )

But i would say how about a relic pet instead of a relic disease dot. As it is shaman pets really aren't even worth summoning/ really awful.

necro's get a relic pet
mage's get a relic pet / runic pet / runic monster summon
Beast's get runic pet / swarm pets

shamans get no hp spirit wolf.

If anything needed to be looked at on shaman i would at the least say the pet. The stat buff combine would just be nice for the ever growing lack of buff slots.
 
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Combining stat buffs would be awesome because I could finally run them 95% of the time. I try to keep eotw at least now for hidden power goodness but with so many clicks and such out there it gets very difficult.
 
combining stat buffs + acumen would be amazing. change the lost relic to a pet that procs a lower level slow so they can more easily slow in exp
 
Waldoff said:
Snake,

....

You also need to count in utility, healing, damage, longevity and everything else that goes into balancing decisions.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reading all my posts.

I dont fully agree with you, but i respect and understand your oppinion.

p.s.
The better mana regen, it doesnt matter much since our heals and dps is also that much more expensive. Anyway, you read my posts, you know what im saying, thank you.
 
Ulandx said:
... and give shammies real group heals.
Click to expand...

Just for the record, i dont want that.
I think the R1 group hot is all the group healing the Shaman should get, just remove the slow and snare so its actually worth casting.


As for my R2 idea, i still think its a cool one, because it wont ever make a real group heal.
For example if the whole group drop to 20%, well it will only be a fast heal on 1 person.
Should 2 people in the group drop, well it could actually be a good idea just to fast heal your self, making it a group heal instead (or an other target with full health).

Being a 1k (base) heal, it wouldnt be of much concern for the Druid or Cleric in that they would still be the only reliable group healers who can push out over 250 hp/second group healing (base).
(Cleric doing around 450 and the Druid with ghot and r1/group heal, can get from 250-450 ish, depending on group size, raid, ect).
 
Snake said:
The better mana regen, it doesnt matter much since our heals and dps is also that much more expensive. Anyway, you read my posts, you know what im saying, thank you.
Click to expand...

People have already pointed this out, but this is simply not true. Even if you compare Revitalize to Woundbane, it's not true. I await your reply showing me how HoT's that heal 100% efficiently are better than woundbane.
 
Snake said:
Just for the record, i dont want that.
I think the R1 group hot is all the group healing the Shaman should get, just remove the slow and snare so its actually worth casting.

.
Click to expand...

It is worth casting, just not on everyone.
 
cian2 said:
I await your reply showing me how HoT's that heal 100% efficiently are better than woundbane.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by "how HoT's that heal 100% efficiently".
You mean, assuming that non of the hp's healed goes to waste by the Druid hot?

If so i will just copy paste my earlier post, and please point out what you think is wrong...

Shaman (Woundbane spam) vs Druid (2x HoT spam + 4.5 Revitalize) over 3 minuts:

Shaman can cast 31 Woundbanes (with CSI 7) in 3 minuts, for 8835 mana healing 51150 hp.
Druid sustaining 2 hots for 3 minuts will cost 5175 mana healing 41850 hp, so Druid would have to cast 4.5 revitalize at 340 a pop to reach 51150hp, total mana 6705.

So with hots and heals from both Shm and Druid landing full on target, the Druid can heal 51150 over 3 minuts for 2130 less mana than the Shaman healing the same spamming Woundbane non stop.

Also worth noticing that for each 36 seconds, a Druid chaining 2x HoT's have 18 seconds to cast other spells, so even with 4.5 revitalize, the druid still have just over 60 seconds of spare time to cast other spells (could cast an additional 10 revitalize for example).


Want me to post all the math?
 
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If Druid just spams Revitalize, can cast 30 in 3 minuts, would cost him 10200 mana (compared to Shaman spamming woundbane costing 8835) healing a total of 61350 hp (Shaman healing 51150).

If he chains Hots (10 relic hots and 5 ancients) and does 14* Revitalize he will heal 70480hp for 9935 mana. Hots are pretty good, but as Bango pointed out, they may go waste, but so can heals /shrug.

*Revitalize has same cast time as hots, so he can cast 30 heals, be it relic hot, ancient hot or revitalize, but he has to wait for the hot ticks here and there, so 14 Revitalize + 15 hots is more likely than being able to time it to 15 hots and 15 heals.
 
Druid hots are insane nice Heal for mana ratio.

Relic: Sihala's Empathy:
325 mana
3x 890 heal
Heal per Mana: 8.22

Ancient: Nature's Soothing:
385 mana
6x 505 heal
Heal per Mana: 7.87

Elixir of Bliss (64 Cleric hot):
350 mana
4x 500 heal
Heal per Mana: 5.71 (worth mentioning its 2 second cast time, which is 1.72 with CSI 7, so speed wise i think its ok that its worse heal per mana ratio compared to the Druid hots, that are both 4 seconds cast time, which comes to 3.44 with CSI 7..)
 
If you look at hots as "total heal per time invested in casting the spell", wont be the same as heal per seconds, but how much healing can you potentialy get for your cast time....

Ancient: Nature's Soothing:
6x 505 heal
5.94 seconds (CSI 7 its 3.44 and 2.5 seconds recast)
Total heal per time invested in casting the spell: 510.1

Elixir of Bliss (64 Cleric hot):
4x 500 heal
4.22 seconds (CSI 7 its 1.72 and 2.5 seconds recast)
Total heal per time invested in casting the spell: 473.93

Relic: Sihala's Empathy:
3x 890 heal
4.22 seconds (CSI 7 its 1.72 and 2.5 seconds recast)
Total heal per time invested in casting the spell: 449.49

Sorry got a little carried away, but i thought it might be fun to analyze those hots.
 
How long would it take a Shaman to heal his group the same as a Cleric casting 1 group heal?

Cleric group heal, 2700. Lets say he has archaic, makes that 3105 base. 2 x Woundbane is 3300 base. So basicly would have to cast 12 Woundbanes, would take with CSI 7 5,725 (3.225 + 2.5 sec recast) times 12, 68.7 seconds (costing 3420 mana).
Takes the Cleric, with recast (ready to cast his next group heal) 5.94 seconds (for 790 mana).

In other words, it would take ~11 Shaman's to heal a group like a Cleric :)

(Thats not counting pets, but to be fair, a few Shaman's might crit heal, so there might not be need for a 2nd heal on a few in the group)


TL;DR
Good, dont read it, its just me being silly

P.S.
Now you clerics and druids know why i freak out saying "HEY, I FAST HEAL, YOU G HEAL FFS!"
 
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I am going the unpopular route. Group heal clickies are stupid and too powerful. I think these probably play a large role in playing a shaman and having to collect them all is dumb. You can replace shaman with any class although clearly shamans are the biggest user.
 
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G healing clickers are the only thing the Shaman has, to try and help with the group healing, other than that its just spam heal the tank, or the g healer if he starts to hurt, cause if the g healer dies, its game over.
The Druid and Cleric use them as mana free healing (usualy the Shaman cant afford that luxery, as we have to save them for when things gets hot, to help the g healer. The cleric and druid just click them to heal up ~20% damaged group, where a group heal would be wasted).

Too powerful?
Well if you ever saw a cleric or druid g heal back to back, a healer trying to click thrue it, would wipe the group.
So as heal per second, they arent good, as heal per mana, well obv as they are mana free, they are better than any spell (other than perhaps AA heals, as you can click those while spells are refreshing).
 
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Snake are you willing to concede that while Hots look amazing on paper (we all agree with that) they are in practice vastly worse. Hots you can not duck at the last second and save your self 300 mana were as heals if someone heals right before you and crit heals you can duck yours.
 
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