Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
H2H skill mod functionality was changed a while back (1.5 years ish?) to make bare fists more viable for monks and beastlords. However, existing H2H mods were never really balanced appropriately plus some nerfs since then have caused further issues. I was told by staff that H2H mods were under evaluation when these nerfs happened but it appears that nothing was ever done. So, here are some straightforward suggestions that will hopefully make fists more balanced.
For reference, my opinion of existing H2H mods and bare fist dps is that it is grossly overpowered from tier 0 through tier 6ish, relatively balanced in the mid/upper tiers, but then falls behind where it should be at the very high end. Monks and beastlords have to choose whether they can afford the loss of hp/resists/foci/procs that comes with not using any weapons in order to use their fists. As a result, fists should be higher DPS than weapons of a similar tier or there would be no reason to ever use them (or fists could offer enough utility to be worth using too, IE for AOE damage or healing/lifetap or providing unique debuffs, etc.)
Low Tier
Fresh 65s can obtain +25 H2H very easily via BOEs, which results in bare fists with 18/18 ratios (plus any ele damage and procs from gloves). This is so far beyond any other on-tier weaponry that it makes virtually every weapon pointless. Furthermore, the stat loss from using Charm of the Brute, Wandering Fungus Wrappings, Wraps of Brutal Strength, and/or High Paw's Hand are pretty minimal compared to typical low tier items. Smart monks of this tier will swap in a weapon with HP/AC/Resists for pulling and then use their fists 100% of the time in combat, same with beastlords. Properly played monks and beastlords using a few thousand PP of BOE gear (gloves plus aforementioned H2H items) can do two or three times the DPS of other classes at this end of the spectrum.
Mid/High Tier
Fists are still easily the best DPS option here, but now it's a more complicated situation. Using a Charm of the Brute at this level is a pretty huge downgrade from something like a Juggo, and the same is true for the BOE items. If you're lucky, this can be solved with raid-dropped H2H items, but they are few and far between. It's also common for gloves at this tier to have some H2H mod, and beastlords get 5-6 from their main quest aug. Weapons actually have appreciable stats at these tiers and raid fights are more involved and AOE-heavy, which makes the stat loss not worth it sometimes. Monks and beastlords no longer dominate the dps meters by using bare fists at this point, although they still are top notch if they're geared optimally and are able to use their fists.
Tier 12+
At the very high end of the game, there are essentially two weapons that are used- Horok and Entropy's Spine. All of the other options from tier 12+ content are essentially the same as what can be obtained at tiers 9 or 10 thanks to how poorly monk/beast physical dps scales, and until you get a Horok or Spine your dps is shit. Blazewind gloves parse nearly identically to these weapons, and you have to sacrifice 400-500 health and a boatload of other stats to use them, plus you lose the utility of the Horok proc and the AOE of the Spine proc. When the gloves had an AOE proc and higher H2H mod they were situationally useful, but now there is never a reason to use them. At this level there is one other source of H2H, the chest from Spires, and the content you are doing is extremely unforgiving so nerfing your stats to boost your H2H is not really an option.
So, here's what I propose: Remove all H2H mods from non-gloves. Scale H2H on gloves from BOE up through t13 from +0 to +25 with various elemental damage and procs (most of which can probably be left as-is). This will make it much easier to balance fist dps throughout the tiers, won't pigeonhole people into using substantially under-tiered items to game the system, and would still provide appropriate skill bonuses for someone using an actual h2h weapon, just like other classes and their weapon skills.
Something like this-
Tier 0 (BOE): o H2H
Tier 1-3: 5 H2H
Tier 4-6: 10 H2H
Tier 7-9: 15 H2H
Tier 10-12: 20 H2H
Tier 13: 25 H2H
Give beastlords conjuration or something on their aug and slap an offense or dual wield or whatever mod on other items where appropriate (Charm of the Brute, Thaz cloak, Talin wrist, spires chest).
Add hth/procs/ele damage to more gloves throughout the tiers to give more options and include some actual unique procs instead of low % nukes as far as the eye can see.
OR Alternatively, nerf charm of the brute, buff matrons grasp, call it a day.
For reference, my opinion of existing H2H mods and bare fist dps is that it is grossly overpowered from tier 0 through tier 6ish, relatively balanced in the mid/upper tiers, but then falls behind where it should be at the very high end. Monks and beastlords have to choose whether they can afford the loss of hp/resists/foci/procs that comes with not using any weapons in order to use their fists. As a result, fists should be higher DPS than weapons of a similar tier or there would be no reason to ever use them (or fists could offer enough utility to be worth using too, IE for AOE damage or healing/lifetap or providing unique debuffs, etc.)
Low Tier
Fresh 65s can obtain +25 H2H very easily via BOEs, which results in bare fists with 18/18 ratios (plus any ele damage and procs from gloves). This is so far beyond any other on-tier weaponry that it makes virtually every weapon pointless. Furthermore, the stat loss from using Charm of the Brute, Wandering Fungus Wrappings, Wraps of Brutal Strength, and/or High Paw's Hand are pretty minimal compared to typical low tier items. Smart monks of this tier will swap in a weapon with HP/AC/Resists for pulling and then use their fists 100% of the time in combat, same with beastlords. Properly played monks and beastlords using a few thousand PP of BOE gear (gloves plus aforementioned H2H items) can do two or three times the DPS of other classes at this end of the spectrum.
Mid/High Tier
Fists are still easily the best DPS option here, but now it's a more complicated situation. Using a Charm of the Brute at this level is a pretty huge downgrade from something like a Juggo, and the same is true for the BOE items. If you're lucky, this can be solved with raid-dropped H2H items, but they are few and far between. It's also common for gloves at this tier to have some H2H mod, and beastlords get 5-6 from their main quest aug. Weapons actually have appreciable stats at these tiers and raid fights are more involved and AOE-heavy, which makes the stat loss not worth it sometimes. Monks and beastlords no longer dominate the dps meters by using bare fists at this point, although they still are top notch if they're geared optimally and are able to use their fists.
Tier 12+
At the very high end of the game, there are essentially two weapons that are used- Horok and Entropy's Spine. All of the other options from tier 12+ content are essentially the same as what can be obtained at tiers 9 or 10 thanks to how poorly monk/beast physical dps scales, and until you get a Horok or Spine your dps is shit. Blazewind gloves parse nearly identically to these weapons, and you have to sacrifice 400-500 health and a boatload of other stats to use them, plus you lose the utility of the Horok proc and the AOE of the Spine proc. When the gloves had an AOE proc and higher H2H mod they were situationally useful, but now there is never a reason to use them. At this level there is one other source of H2H, the chest from Spires, and the content you are doing is extremely unforgiving so nerfing your stats to boost your H2H is not really an option.
So, here's what I propose: Remove all H2H mods from non-gloves. Scale H2H on gloves from BOE up through t13 from +0 to +25 with various elemental damage and procs (most of which can probably be left as-is). This will make it much easier to balance fist dps throughout the tiers, won't pigeonhole people into using substantially under-tiered items to game the system, and would still provide appropriate skill bonuses for someone using an actual h2h weapon, just like other classes and their weapon skills.
Something like this-
Tier 0 (BOE): o H2H
Tier 1-3: 5 H2H
Tier 4-6: 10 H2H
Tier 7-9: 15 H2H
Tier 10-12: 20 H2H
Tier 13: 25 H2H
Give beastlords conjuration or something on their aug and slap an offense or dual wield or whatever mod on other items where appropriate (Charm of the Brute, Thaz cloak, Talin wrist, spires chest).
Add hth/procs/ele damage to more gloves throughout the tiers to give more options and include some actual unique procs instead of low % nukes as far as the eye can see.
OR Alternatively, nerf charm of the brute, buff matrons grasp, call it a day.
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