Please Adjust Something About the Endgame

[Silosobi]

I know numerous players have made posts or comments about the various aspects of imbalance at the high tiers of Shards of Dalaya. There have been a number of substantial nerfs to various classes and items, most of them targeted at the highest tier content. I can see the reasoning behind most of these changes. I am not going to ask for nerfs to be reverted. I just want it to be possible again for a guild to naturally progress into T13, because right now, it probably cannot be done, and this has killed numerous guilds, and caused countless players to quit.

These are some of the significant nerfs I am aware of (Just to give an idea of the power lost):
4.3 Robe lost CSI 10
4.3 2HS became virtually unusable to anyone other than Enchanter. Mage/Wiz lost DI10
All healer weapons had significant proc nerfs - these provided a substantial amount of free group healing and dps.
Necro lost their broken tome that gave them lots of free DPS
Custo Sword had multiple significant nerfs
Taeshlin Ear lost its increased damage and resist mod
Many other T11-13 items have seen various stat nerfs
Channeling was a big nerf to all casters, and even hurt meele procs.
Warriors lost some dps (and maybe more?)
BST/Monk lost a LOT of DPS (at the high end, these classes are really just not worth bringing unfortunately)

There have definitely been some buffs in there as well, but in total players/guilds have definitely lost power.

It total, what was lost?
(1)Mostly DPS. A LOT of DPS was lost. 10-20% total raid dps from parses I see.
(2)Group Healing. Those priest weapons were providing a ton of free group healing(check out Eisley's Rujik Video, where he heals the entire initial 8k AE entirely with weapon procs).
(3)Tanking has seen the least change, but some items have definitely lost stats.

How can this be fixed? These are some changes that I think would best address the issue:
(1) Reduce AEs on the T13 fights. Something like 10% would seem appropriate to me.
(2) Reduce the total HP on T13 fights. Somewhere in the 10-20% range seems about right.
(3) Give more access to focus 9s. As I highlighted in another thread, there is a strange delay in focus effect gain, and this would be a way to give back some of the lost character power, in a format that is natural and expected through the rest of the raid game(caster and especially healer item progression gets really boring without new focuses in T12-13)
(4) Making channeling something far less powerful than it was, but still desirable, and/or boost the stats on items balanced around channeling.
(5) Somehow buff Monk/Beastlords. IDK if these classes are suffering at the lower tiers as well. If they are, some innate buffs seem appropriate. If this is exclusive to the endgame, maybe just look back at items like Silence, T11-12 fist weapons, From what I understand Horok is still decent, there is just nothing good to pair it with, and of course the Mostro 2H and the Blazewind Gloves should really put out dps that is at least *closer* to other dps classes.

I'm not suggesting ALL of these changes as that would be too much. If the Focus 9s, monk/bst, and channeling adjustments went into game, the fights would need much less adjustment (although still some). If none of that changed, I really think a 10% AE reduction, and 20% hp reduction would be necessary to make these fights possible for a naturally progressing guild.

If any Dev wants to tackle this problem, please feel free to contact me. I am happy to share countless old parses that highlight some of these problems, as well as discuss specifics of fights, as some need more changes than others, and there are probably a few encounters pre T13 that should be adjusted as well, since many changes reduce power of players starting at T11-12. Thank you for your time! I really hope we can fix this so more players can experience some of these fun end game fights!

 

[Tevinter]

I agree with you point about focus 9s, channeling, and monk/bst weapons. However, I personally believe that a guild could 100% progress through every monster in the game without ringers of any kind at this point in time. The difference between tier 12 and tier 13 fights is that tier 13 fights leave very little room for error. The big reason that only 1 guild has really progressed past tier 12 is that the selection of tier 13 targets is pretty small. A tier 12 guild has 4 targets to choose from, Prime Twins, Taeshlin, Monstrosity, and Sharn Ree. I personally havent done Prime Twins so i cant speak for that, but monstrosity and taesh have some pretty large DPS checks, probably the biggest of any tier 13 fights. This leaves the option of Sharn Ree, a fight that is incredibly difficult to carry less skilled players on. I feel like if a guild is good enough to kill sharn ree, then they have the potential to kill the rest of the tier 13 monsters. Sharn Ree is probably one of the funnest fights in the game and it should not be changed. The 2 former strongest tier 12 guilds did not put very much time into this mob afaik, i know CW attempted the trash mobs once and did not get past the first actual pull, and im unsure of Exodus sharn ree experience. Basically if a guild that was geared properly from the available tier 12 targets put in the time and effort and had enough playeer skill, they could become a tier 13 guild.

 

[Moraelintz]

Tev I unfortunately completely disagree with you. Especially because you have never seen or been part of an on tier raid for ree, rujik, and maybe even monstrosity. Ree while being a hard fight strategically is also nothing to scoff at as a gear check. Tanking it can be brutal and you need tw dps to outlive the attrition. Just think how much trouble we have had with rujik and we stupidly overtier it. When some of te best healers in game finish oom and we have people like Reehs Anvyl Kedrin solosolki Erude Krentil enasc Eisley asura Draeos in raid maybe not all of them but definitely some/a good part of them I don't see a guild progressing through it.

 

[Moraelintz]

Furthermore, with the weapon nerfs a cleric can no longer single heal through adds on taeshlin. Anti was consistently running oom about 60-70% through the fight. That may be some parts inefficient healing but I think more of it is he only got 1-2 free gheals from melee instead of 5-10. I agree with solo that in order for a new guild to progress through changes will need to be made otherwise the only people that can/will kill these mobs are the ones that have killed these mobs and have most/all of thier loots.

 

[Silosobi]

I agree with you point about focus 9s, channeling, and monk/bst weapons. However, I personally believe that a guild could 100% progress through every monster in the game without ringers of any kind at this point in time. The difference between tier 12 and tier 13 fights is that tier 13 fights leave very little room for error. The big reason that only 1 guild has really progressed past tier 12 is that the selection of tier 13 targets is pretty small. A tier 12 guild has 4 targets to choose from, Prime Twins, Taeshlin, Monstrosity, and Sharn Ree. I personally havent done Prime Twins so i cant speak for that, but monstrosity and taesh have some pretty large DPS checks, probably the biggest of any tier 13 fights. This leaves the option of Sharn Ree, a fight that is incredibly difficult to carry less skilled players on. I feel like if a guild is good enough to kill sharn ree, then they have the potential to kill the rest of the tier 13 monsters. Sharn Ree is probably one of the funnest fights in the game and it should not be changed. The 2 former strongest tier 12 guilds did not put very much time into this mob afaik, i know CW attempted the trash mobs once and did not get past the first actual pull, and im unsure of Exodus sharn ree experience. Basically if a guild that was geared properly from the available tier 12 targets put in the time and effort and had enough playeer skill, they could become a tier 13 guild.

This is the kind of end game arrogance that just accentuates these problems. I'm guilty of that sort of thinking at points, but after starting at this situation for *years* and only seeing it get worse, you just have to face the facts. You never did these fights on tier. You never saw a Tier 13 fight without *multiple* 4.3 robe tanks, much less your main tank. You never saw these fights without a good portion of the raid having already farmed out every possible opus and class tome in the game. Yeah, sure, Sharn'Ree is a bit less of a gear check than the others, and I'm sure a perfectly played T12 guild could defeat it, but with the lag and bugs in EQ, and the fact that there are almost always some boxes, expecting perfect play is totally unrealistic.

This problem doesn't even require you take my word for it. Any rational person could look at the changes to classes and gear over the last ~3 year and see that potential character power in the T11-13 range has substantially decreased. Without correspondingly decreasing mob power, fights obviously get harder.

 

[Dinadass]

T13 stuff from the beginning demanded a whole new level of "skill" from a guild, or whatever you want to call it. The margin of error compared to T11-12 stuff is hugely different, through a combination of more complex fight mechanics, longer durations, bigger AOEs, etc. And I don't think anyone could disagree with the idea that high end guilds now are weaker than they were years ago with the substantial reductions in DPS and group heal procs we've seen.

I think Solo is 100% right. T13 stuff is meant to be challenging, and it always has been (as well as being fun and engaging compared to lower tier stuff) but I think it's gotten too challenging over the last several years as a result of all the class/gear nerfs and no corresponding adjustments to the fights.

 

[Nebi]

I believe that until you have another guild breaking into that tier that this will remain how it is.

 

[Otcho]

If only you had manguadi in your guild.

 

[sheer1]

I dont agree that t12/13 fights are impossible for any "naturally" progressing guild.
You point to a lot of the item nerfs but in reality the first guild to do all these fights had none (maybe like 1 or 2 people had 1 thing) of those items on the first pass.

It total, what was lost?
(1)Mostly DPS. A LOT of DPS was lost. 10-20% total raid dps from parses I see.

There is also no hard evidence to support this as an ongoing trend. Immediately after bane/channeling other changes, it was easy to notice that a raid did less damage using the exact same gear as before, but once appropriate gear swaps were made the raids consistently did as much or more dps than previously.

Channeling is by far the biggest dps nerf that happened, and it inordinately affected wizards. However even with max channeling gear I think that added only 5 crit chance. Which is barely 3% dps for most casters, more like 5% for wizards when accounting for the increased ultimate/primal chance.

(check out Eisley's Rujik Video, where he heals the entire initial 8k AE entirely with weapon procs).

Rujik had died numerous times before this, before anyone even had this weaopn. This really only showed how broken Cella was in its current state. It should have gotten changed and it did.

(3)Tanking has seen the least change, but some items have definitely lost stats.

You are not even really saying anything here, tanking has only gotten better.

(3) Give more access to focus 9s.

This is the only part i remotely agree with, focus effects (and instrument mods) stall out around t10/11 and have very few options available which lead to people using the same gear for a very long time with out a way to upgrade anything.

This is the kind of end game arrogance that just accentuates these problems.

I dont even know what this means. There is nothing stopping other guilds, and continuing to point to gear nerfs from years ago is an excuse that has no merit.

 

[fxattack]

The nature of this server goes against 'natural progress' into the endgame. Two or three lesser guilds progress to a certain point while the top guild runs the same endgame content for a long time, then their burned out are replaced by the most hardcore players from the next highest guild. That is probably why no guild will 'naturally' progress into the endgame. The population is low on the server, and its this cycle that prevents guilds from getting all the way to the end while a top guild is in place. Getting back all your channeling dps and cast speed increment won't help those lesser guilds get to T13.

 

[sheer1]

Two or three lesser guilds progress to a certain point while the top guild runs the same endgame content for a long time, then their burned out are replaced by the most hardcore players from the next highest guild. That is probably why no guild will 'naturally' progress into the endgame.

this entire scenario we are referring to was progressed to and through by a (in its creation) maybe 1/3 sanctum geared guild and 2/3 old thaz/tot geared guild. There were no ringers and no strats known. You know this since you were in it for a little while.

Your analogy, while often accurate, is irrelevant to this discussion's core point about a new guild's ability to progress through the highest tiers.

 

[Silosobi]

I dont agree that t12/13 fights are impossible for any "naturally" progressing guild.

You point to a lot of the item nerfs but in reality the first guild to do all these fights had none (maybe like 1 or 2 people had 1 thing) of those items on the first pass.

There is also no hard evidence to support this as an ongoing trend. Immediately after bane/channeling other changes, it was easy to notice that a raid did less damage using the exact same gear as before, but once appropriate gear swaps were made the raids consistently did as much or more dps than previously.

Channeling is by far the biggest dps nerf that happened, and it inordinately affected wizards. However even with max channeling gear I think that added only 5 crit chance. Which is barely 3% dps for most casters, more like 5% for wizards when accounting for the increased ultimate/primal chance.

There is tons of hard evidence for this. We had a ton of 4.3 loot when we first killed Sharn'Ree, and by Blaze/Taesh/Mostro, the entire guild was using 43 weapons and gear. I was rocking 35% DI, and more total crit rate. Healers had Crystalis, which was more powerful than Cella is now. BST were doing more damage. Monks were doing WAY more damage. Most of these fights actually got *harder* since we first beat them (EG: remember when Rujik hail targets were rocking like 1500 dps each?!?). Mage/BST pets had 30k hp, could tank things, never died from AEs. Necros had that tome that added like 500 free dps and instantly exploded any grouped up adds(remember how we used to kill ALL skeleton adds before going into rujik's room)

The only reason *our* raids are doing at all comparable dps is that we have a ton of characters who are pretty much maxed out from available content. All tomes, supreme, all gear, cash for elemental damage augs, etc. All you have to do is add up the nerfs and buffs over the last few years, and it is pretty clear that characters have less potential power. Actual power hasn't changed as much because we have farmed out every single tome, item, etc to make ourselves stronger. That is a completely unrealistic expectation for a normally progressing guild.

Rujik had died numerous times before this, before anyone even had this weaopn. This really only showed how broken Cella was in its current state. It should have gotten changed and it did.

They all had Crystalis before they had Cella.

I dont even know what this means. There is nothing stopping other guilds, and continuing to point to gear nerfs from years ago is an excuse that has no merit.

I'm referring to the attitude among many end game players (myself included at times) that "haha, we are the best, nobody else can do the content we do because they are not good enough".

Yes, these fights require more "skill" than most previous fights. I don't want that to change. I think its fun and adds an "epic" feel to the end game.

However, the fact that the sum total of end-game changes over the past years has seen a significant loss of potential character power, while fights have remained the same, seems like a pretty obvious indication that balance is off.

The fact that these fights remain a struggle for characters completely geared from them, who have spent *years* in spires/turuj getting every available opus, etc should indicate there is a problem. Yeah we could "just be better" but even the fights where I have not seen people make mistakes, we have ended with considerably lower mana than we use to.

On top of all this, I know for a fact that Marza went back and made a number of these fights *harder* after seeing FWF beat them with lots of spare mana at the peak of the OP marza item era.

Oh another thing I forgot. Do you remember when we had 2 minute Vah backs? Those were absurdly powerful, and just about required when we were first beating rujik.

 

[Tevinter]

Okay here is the DPS from the most recent SF custodian kill.

Total
--- DMG: 3380944 (100%) @ 9470 dps (9470 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 971214 @2970dps

Here is the DPS of CW's last custodian kill (RIP Chaotic Winds)
Total
--- DMG: 3286158 (100%) @ 9205 dps (9205 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 1302035 @3710dps

Here is another SF custo kill
Total
--- DMG: 2972103 (100%) @ 8011 dps (8011 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 1266029 @3628dps

I feel like if that CW raid on that custo kill had gotten their bards and rogues a hard mode custo sword they would have enough DPS to kill sharn ree, ESPECIALLY if some of their DPS played better (there was a wizard just below a mage pet, and a monk just above a mage pet, LOL) in that raid. Tier 13 fights are balanced around the best players in the game because thats what original FWF was (Zurkka bango eisley lleoc kedrin reehs solosolki etc). Aside from what i stated in my first post, the only other point i can agree on is reducing AE damage taken on certain fights. The things that come to mind are Taesh, the 100-80% part of monstro, and maybe reducing ash HP a little bit on blazewind. Currently though, bringing a paladin and druid and keeping ghots up on all 3 groups is night and day difference. I seriously believe that a tier 12 geared guild has the potential to kill tier 13 monsters. I was in a guild that was geared to the teeth in tier 12 loot, and i believe that guild had the gear to kill sharn ree and probably rujik too if all 18 dudes played good enough. But until there is 18 dudes with tier 12 gear pushing their characters to the limit trying to kill tier 13 mobs, I dont think anything will be done about it.

I was in a tier 12 guild for a very long time, and the reason it did not kill any tier 13 monsters was not because they were impossibly difficult, but because they were never attempted because guaranteed loot and appeasing loot/opus whores was prioritized over progressing the guild.

 

[Nebi]

Okay here is the DPS from the most recent SF custodian kill.

Total
--- DMG: 3380944 (100%) @ 9470 dps (9470 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 971214 @2970dps

Here is the DPS of CW's last custodian kill (RIP Chaotic Winds)
Total
--- DMG: 3286158 (100%) @ 9205 dps (9205 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 1302035 @3710dps

Here is another SF custo kill
Total
--- DMG: 2972103 (100%) @ 8011 dps (8011 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 1266029 @3628dps

You cannot compare SF's Custo raids which are filled with alts and less than optimal gear vs CW's raids where everyone practically had 50+ tomes.

 

[Moraelintz]

As you stated a t12 guild could not kill custo unless it had better dps and loot from hard mode custo. How does that make sense then that it is balanced?

You said you were in a guild that was decked out t12 and could/would not make the jump in over a year. If it takes longer than a year to progress 2 tier there is an inherit problem. I understand that there is a lot more 'skill' involved in the tier, but that shows just how big the tier jump is and how small the reward jump is, especially if the tier is still really difficult when you are over tiered.

Correct me if I am wrong but exo never even killed a non broken taeshlin. I think they beat it when some mechanic was funny think monks might have been stupid dps or something.

I completely agree with solo that certain things should be rebalanced around where the game is now and not where it was pre-nerfs.

 

[sheer1]

There is tons of hard evidence for this. [...] All you have to do is add up the nerfs and buffs over the last few years, and it is pretty clear that characters have less potential power. Actual power hasn't changed as much because we have farmed out every single tome, item, etc to make ourselves stronger.

This is basically an impossible statement to prove either way. This is not the case, you think it is. I suspect you may be misconstruing some personal wizard dps loss (which is a thing) as a reflection on an entire raid force. Trying to compare parses or what we recall from raids over three years ago isn't really going to make much difference and would just turn this thread into the incomprehensible number vomit we saw on that bad monk dps post a few weeks ago.

Like you said another big change other than channeling would be Vah Back (and festering curse for that matter). They were poorly implemented long cooldown huge damage boosters that skewed potential damage output when those cooldowns were available. Vah back getting changed makes it more reliable on a per fight basis and evens out what the class is capable of doing. A guild can actually depend on it now for each attempt instead of thinking they need to hold back until maybe they might win a hard fight, then finally use vah backs. Its a nerf to peak dps, but it is a buff in terms of judging a raid's capability on a given encounter.


I'm ignoring the part about crystalis and cella because the healing output of those two items were not comparable at all in their initial states.

I'm referring to the attitude among many end game players (myself included at times) that "haha, we are the best, nobody else can do the content we do because they are not good enough"..

Sometimes you just need to suck it up and wipe out a strat. That isn't anything special, its not being arrogant, it is just playing the game and realizing you ran into something that can't power through and ignore.

The biggest barrier to guilds doing higher content is, and has always been, getting people to stick around, and getting people to show up all on the same day to raid. Then convincing those players that there is fun to be had in actually playing the game, and not just getting guaranteed loot you can link in ooc.

 

[Moraelintz]

Reehs you bring up some good points, but again with all that has gone on I would still say overall raid dps has dropped 10% or more from equally geared and exp toons in the fwf days. The casters were hurt the most followed by the healers ability to heal some of the aes. Cella was always way more powerful than crystallis as far as healing but it was still very handy and would save 3-5 gheals at a minimum per fight. Now at best cella saves 1-2 gheals per fight. The nice thing about that is not only the mana but the time casting that can be used healing tank/low person in group/melee ing trying for another proc.

I can't say exactly how the melee dps has been affected maybe they haven't been hit as hard.

 

[Tevinter]

As you stated a t12 guild could not kill custo unless it had better dps and loot from hard mode custo. How does that make sense then that it is balanced?

You said you were in a guild that was decked out t12 and could/would not make the jump in over a year. If it takes longer than a year to progress 2 tier there is an inherit problem. I understand that there is a lot more 'skill' involved in the tier, but that shows just how big the tier jump is and how small the reward jump is, especially if the tier is still really difficult when you are over tiered.

Correct me if I am wrong but exo never even killed a non broken taeshlin. I think they beat it when some mechanic was funny think monks might have been stupid dps or something.

I completely agree with solo that certain things should be rebalanced around where the game is now and not where it was pre-nerfs.

What i meant was that if the dudes that made the DPS had a couple more items they could kill rujik, sorry i worded it poorly. The reason the guild could not make the jump was because the raids were finally hard enough to not be able to carry bad people. Look at heroic mode progression in WoW, guilds wipe literally HUNDREDS of times to kill 1 monster on the hardest difficulty. The heroic mode fights are balanced 10 or 25 dudes playing the game at a very high skill level to get loot that is slightly better than normal mode.

The real question is, do you balance tier 13 around an FWF level guild with the game best players, or a CW level guild carrying euro caster DPS and monks who are competing to outparse mage pets?

 

[TheSkos]

The biggest barrier to guilds doing higher content is, and has always been, getting people to stick around, and getting people to show up all on the same day to raid. Then convincing those players that there is fun to be had in actually playing the game, and not just getting guaranteed loot you can link in ooc.

Yup. This. People burn out on the jump from ToT going to Prison because the mobs are highly contested or not up, pug'ed and/or killed by over-tiered people.
When I was shitting around in a lower tier guild because I really had nothing else to do, this was the problem. It was always getting the right people in game on the right day with the right mobs up. But they never were. So it was an endless cycle of Frost. Someone would burn out thats important then it was backgearing.

I would look more into the gaps in loot that classes have going from tier to tier. It's a constant shuffle of items. "I need to get this item so I can upgrade that item. I need this focus effect so I can't upgrade it till I get this other item." Sure this is how it has always been but I see the problem not so much with the loot but the lack of focus on a diversity of items rather than the same slots over and over or slots that have another irreplaceable item in it until you get some other item.

If you are meant to get DI 7 in a said tier, add it to multiple items in multiple slots of that tier.
Same with CSI et al. This alone would make more items viable immediately instead of having to get this one item then get this one item. Then you can get this one item.

Hell I wouldn't mind seeing multiple's of the same item with different focus effects.

But Progressing on tier as it is now is possible. Harder breaking into t12 - 13 because strats get amazingly harder. There is less room for error. There is no more power through. It's execution. You need people that listen and know whats going on. Yeah you are gonna head bash shit for days or weeks breaking into it. But you have to think when you progressed as a top tier guild. The stuff was always there for you to throw attempts at. New guilds have to sometimes wait a couple weeks to find it up to make a few attempts.

I also believe until another guild hits these progression points and can't do it with currant available gear then an argument that sounds like "You nerfed this so you should make this easier" won't get very far. I also think this thread needs to be more specific. I'm not saying parses. I'm saying more or less what classes are doing underwhelming dps at what tier and is is holding a guild back. Is this person/class not brought to a raid because they contribute nothing on tier?

I mean I rarely see rogues'. The DPS is linear but based completely on a weapon/procs/clickies(if they have any) So having the same weapon for 2 tiers before you get a drop can mean you are the worst of the worst in the raid for DPS. While casters get slow increments of DPS boost with every little bit of FT and mana gained.

Melee classes just grow in jumps rather than slow increase in power compared to casters.

So again, I would say there are OTHER area's that should be addressed before saying change progression to make it easier. Why not focus on the area's that need to see improvements. I see little tidbits here and there all over the forums but nobody makes posts. Recently a monk post on fists. But no rogues post about improvements to class or Beasts.

But in the end it really is burnout from waiting for right circumstances to progress. Some people get all the items they need from what they are killing but need to gear others so they are stuck in a situation of not getting an upgrade for months and see no end in sight and they burn out and stop showing up or guild hop like previously stated.

I do like the direction this thread could take. I don't think its impossible to progress as is but I know there are other things that should be looked at to make it easier to progress rather than "this was nerfed it was easier then now its harder so please make it easier again."

 

[mechkl]

Can we just rewind the game to 3 years ago when it was fun....

love this game, love this server.
I HATE the direction the server is going in...
I think refusing to awknowledge power creep in an mmo and nerfing items/mechanics based around what end game characters can do with them (looks at you riposte) is incredibly ignorant to what the server playerbase wants. Like the staff has always said "our sand box our rules" but how fun is it to play in a sand box by yourself, Seems more like ur taking ur ball and going home instead.