Please Adjust Something About the Endgame

@Skos: First of all, this probably deserves its own thread but, I have, in the now distant past, posted numerous threads/posts concerning Beastlords. The lack of dps, the frailty of pets, lack of relics (bards are hybrids with ancient/relic), inability to jolt(needed more at lower tiers than upper), the crappy stance selections, etc, etc. Everyone of those threads was shot down by the regular forum personalities (trolls/flamers), who, in very basic terms, said get better, and that they love having bst in their groups, blah blah blah. well, I never saw those people in game to group up with, that is for sure. Yet, in game, you see the same handful of bst constantly LFG. Most of them eventually quit, or re-roll, and along comes a new crop of people fooled into thinking they are a wortwhile, to level up and sit lfg for weeks at a time. And so the cycle restarts, ad infinitum.

Now, I never got to the r2 pet, so I can't really comment about that. The r1 swarm pet sure made a difference on dps, but it will drain you mana quicker than a spike strip deflates your tires. Being stuck using the same pet from 63 until you can get a r2 pet at what, tier11 (or is it 10)? If i had the time, I would re-load a parser and do all those different line-ups to get numbers to back everything up. But without the parser test dummy that many clamor for, it becomes much harder to give true comparative numbers. the sheer fact that the thread about the "ideal raid" includes numerous people saying they would not take a beastlord, says volumes about how bad off the class is, and how OP rangers are in endgame by comparison.

Part of the discrepancy in dps for bst (and monk also, I guess) it is the itemization of h2h mods. Looking at the wiki, I count about 2 dozen items with h2h mod on it. By contrast, the wiki lists 42 items with an archery mod, and backstab is on 53 items. (All these totals ignores the class augs from the main quest.) Both of those skills include an aug from thurg bounties (type 12 glyph), but h2h is not represented there. Of these 24 h2h items, one is the 60pp-ish charm of the brute, and 5 or 6 which are boe gear. Another of which is the old thaz quest gloves. Looking at the other two-thirds, there is an item around t4, another couple at t6 or t7, and the rest fall squarely in the t9+ range (mostly 10-11). Of all those two dozen items, a full half of them are gloves. Now, if h2h is to be the equalizer for bst/monk, how come other classes built around a weapon skill (ranger/rogue) get two charms with the skill on it, while bst only get the one? And how come they get so few items, with some slots not even represented, to choose from to gear up with?

And stances, let's not even start talking about those. I would have loved to get a stance overhaul like the warriors got. But an extremely vocal minority nixxed that before it ever got off the ground. All to save the "oh shit I need to tank stance".

I do love your ideas for improving rogues though. (Whom most certainly need some love, and a warrior type stance system to make relevant again, imo.)
 
I generally do not comment on these endgame discussions because spending my life raiding isn't my bag anymore, but as for the inaccessibility of the highest tier of content that seems a-okay in my book. The absolute highest tier content either has to be prohibitively difficult (SoD) or constantly replaced with new content (EQ, WoW) or else everyone "beats" the game and wanders off. For the time that I played WoW live there were always lulls in activity between updates because even bleeding edge content was manageable with a raid of people who had a clue about gearing/specs, the video game skills necessary to beat lvl 1 of Mario (any Mario, really), and could consistently show up without ninja afking to jerk it too frequently. Once our band of flipper fisted chronic masturbaters rocked the Tournament (or whatever was endgame at the time) hard mode on our third alts our focus would shift away from the game for a few months until new stuff arrived. If SoD endgame-endgame was made accessible the lull between content would stretch years and years and years.
 
I generally do not comment on these endgame discussions because spending my life raiding isn't my bag anymore, but as for the inaccessibility of the highest tier of content that seems a-okay in my book. The absolute highest tier content either has to be prohibitively difficult (SoD) or constantly replaced with new content (EQ, WoW) or else everyone "beats" the game and wanders off.
A great point, however I have to think that inaccessible end-game content in a game like this just shifts where people perceive the end to be. Rather than - hey we just killed VZ and beat the game - people consider themselves done when they get something like a solanerus, or a 4.3 robe, or a verdict, or some other silly thing, while the highest end content goes not only unkilled, but completely untouched.

100% my opinion, but I'd rather see people doing all of the content and quitting when they run out than running out artificially at some (potentially much) earlier point. I really enjoy the tier 13 fights I've been lucky enough to attempt, and look forward to every Jyre / Monstro / Blazewind / Taeshlin attempt just because they're very cool fights. It's a shame most people quit before they see them.
 
.....
And stances, let's not even start talking about those. I would have loved to get a stance overhaul like the warriors got. But an extremely vocal minority nixxed that before it ever got off the ground. All to save the "oh shit I need to tank stance".

I do love your ideas for improving rogues though. (Whom most certainly need some love, and a warrior type stance system to make relevant again, imo.)


beastlord stance revamp for set aside by woldoff because he wasnt sure it would be compatible with the new client and didnt want to code something he was gonna have to recode later iirc, maybe now that it seems that taryth is seemlessly messing the systems into the new client, we can perhaps get wold to pick up his idea again.
 
I really don't understand how some people can think everything is totally fine as is.

I dont want easy t13 farming. These fights wouldn't change much for my guild with slightly reduced hp/damage, since wipes are nearly always because people mess up mechanics, not a lack of healing/dps.

I honestly think the GREEDY play here is to keep them as is, where they are only reasonable/realistic raid that will kill t13 is 2/3 geared from it. It makes sure up and coming guilds don't even try this content, and it is eternally reserved for the alts/friends of the group of players who are already T13/max tome/supreme/etc. This isn't some theoretical thing either, its already been happening for years. Up and coming guilds don't even try the endgame because they are friends with a lot of top players, or have some members who have been there, or etc, and they hear about how drastically harder T13 is than anything before, and they feel like they need a full awesome T12 force to beat it (which is true), so they try to farm that, but its impossible to get there, because someone will always quit or guildhop before the rest of the force is ready.

Even if we put aside the debate of whether nerfs have reduced healing/dps, I dont think the T13 fights need to be giant gear checks. I think a t11/12 guild in eternals and 15 tomes each should be able to kill this stuff if they had 18 people pushing buttons well. T13 fights are all about mechanics and player communication/skill, reducing numbers a bit won't change that at all. Anyone who has done any of these fights can tell you that 10% AE reduction and 20% less hp wouldn't make any of these fights possible to power through. They will always be about mechanics and skill, they don't need to be massive gear checks, and keeping them at the level of gear check they are now honestly destroys guilds and makes players quit.
 
here is a parse from a very old rujik kill.

Total
--- DMG: 6601123 (100%) @ 10984 dps (10984 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 3717316 @6185dps

Lleoc + pets
--- DMG: 719055 (10.89%) @ 1200 dps (1196 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 127587 @263dps

Solosolki + pets
--- DMG: 691462 (10.47%) @ 1152 dps (1151 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 133366 @278dps

Valdian + pets
--- DMG: 689889 (10.45%) @ 1154 dps (1148 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 290674 @607dps

Velleity + pets
--- DMG: 661335 (10.02%) @ 1119 dps (1100 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 164748 @278dps

Tarutao + pets
--- DMG: 626062 (9.48%) @ 1050 dps (1042 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 139639 @292dps

Kedrin + pets
--- DMG: 614817 (9.31%) @ 1028 dps (1023 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 125920 @263dps

Shimone + pets
--- DMG: 560455 (8.49%) @ 937 dps (933 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 295490 @521dps

Vexiz + pets
--- DMG: 558322 (8.46%) @ 935 dps (929 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 294140 @672dps

Reehs + pets
--- DMG: 529572 (8.02%) @ 887 dps (881 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 5412 @16dps

Here we can see that the raid DPS isnt that great. For comparison, here is a undergeared undertomed character from 2014 vs rujik.
Nebi
--- DMG: 529410 (8.08%) @ 1117 dps (1112 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 122586 @341dps

Now you might argue, "Oh but OP healer weapons made it so you could fight the mob for a million billion hours and never run oom." Well, if Eisley's rujik video is any indication (
) you can see that literally the ONLY healer that melees the boss at any point is eisley. Now the above parse may not be from that specific raid, but lets take a look at some other things in the raid from that video. 0 tanks have a 4.3 robe, there is 3 tanks in the raid (rujik can be done with 2 tanks on tier), solosolki is the only int caster using a 2hand 4.3 sword, old enchanter GoG and runic 1, very few fae robes/BPs, no rangers w/ BW bow OR the current ranger runic 2. The amount of people in that video using the OP marza era items and 2 minute vah backs is pretty limited. A number of buffs have went in since those nerfs as well, ranger runic 2 enchanter aod change, necro dots being buffed etc. If a raid of tier 12 geared dudes with the proper work put into their characters and are mostly unboxed cant achieve enough raid dps to be able to kill tier 13 mobs maybe the issue isnt character power or the content being too hard but maybe the people behind the keyboard instead
 
I don't know if your arguments necessarily support the parse. One of the big things is overall dps:
Total
--- DMG: 6601123 (100%) @ 10984 dps (10984 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 3717316 @6185dps

Here is a recent parse from our latest rujik kill with 1 tank. If you swap even the lowest dps character for a paladin (which would almost be needed on tier) you would lose over 400dps putting the dps about on par with previous raid. I would say a new T12 breaking into T13 will not put up the numbers like Enasc, reehs, kedrin, yelsie, solo. Most likely they will be around 2/3 that dps at best so they will most likely be in the 7-8k dps range making the fight run 20-30% longer. While we have been finishing pretty much oom recently on these I think it would be an issue for a guild breaking in. Also, that post shows how much casters have been nerfed since most of those casters were less geared/tomed than the ones we have and solo and tao were doing 1150 and 1050 vs solo and nomos @ 1077 and 952 with tao now being at 50 tomes and nomos at 92 there is no telling where they were at that parse.

Total
--- DMG: 6635328 (100%) @ 11362 dps (11362 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 3108939 @5324dps

Enasc
--- DMG: 700030 (10.55%) @ 1224 dps (1199 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 118238 @253dps

Reehs
--- DMG: 656591 (9.9%) @ 1130 dps (1124 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 6372 @37dps

Kedrin + pets
--- DMG: 647427 (9.76%) @ 1855 dps (1109 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 64044 @192dps
--- Special: X

Solosolki + pets
--- DMG: 628826 (9.48%) @ 1094 dps (1077 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 111536 @238dps

Yelsie
--- DMG: 603314 (9.09%) @ 1040 dps (1033 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 147755 @316dps

Nomos
--- DMG: 566419 (8.54%) @ 978 dps (970 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 118375 @253dps

Lowako + pets
--- DMG: 556201 (8.38%) @ 966 dps (952 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 129623 @273dps

Daenar + pets
--- DMG: 510054 (7.69%) @ 882 dps (873 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 381900 @816dps

Riule + pets
--- DMG: 418707 (6.31%) @ 727 dps (717 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 284112 @607dps

Anvyl + pets
--- DMG: 405885 (6.12%) @ 1176 dps (695 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 65855 @278dps
--- Special: X

Tevinter
--- DMG: 355825 (5.36%) @ 754 dps (609 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 110649 @236dps

Moraelin
--- DMG: 293177 (4.42%) @ 503 dps (502 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 644366 @1103dps

Eisley
--- DMG: 82564 (1.24%) @ 321 dps (141 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 107818 @202dps

Biarni
--- DMG: 77726 (1.17%) @ 149 dps (133 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 124974 @267dps

Flotte + pets
--- DMG: 34366 (0.52%) @ 74 dps (59 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 123640 @264dps

Kepsitrealson
--- DMG: 30221 (0.46%) @ 133 dps (52 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 49599 @221dps

Gtoo
--- DMG: 28735 (0.43%) @ 67 dps (49 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 116168 @207dps

Lilfangcdxxxiv
--- DMG: 12471 (0.19%) @ 75 dps (21 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 6885 @275dps

Kangal
--- DMG: 9996 (0.15%) @ 17 dps (17 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 20484 @37dps

Cuddles
--- DMG: 5848 (0.09%) @ 12 dps (10 sdps)

Shinobi
--- DMG: 4324 (0.07%) @ 14 dps (7 sdps)

Mooshie
--- DMG: 3600 (0.05%) @ 10 dps (6 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 59992 @175dps

Freechillville
--- DMG: 2863 (0.04%) @ 8 dps (5 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 64451 @284dps

Tinytank
--- DMG: 158 (0%) @ 0 dps (0 sdps)

Triopas
--- DMG to PC: 124530 @266dps

Antinnia
--- DMG to PC: 127573 @273dps
 
Also, Combined: Warchief Rujik Moktar on 8/18/2014 in 584sec if that went on for another 20% would be roughly an additional 2 minutes and I am very certain our healers could not heal that fight for an additional 2 minutes. That would be about 1:15 of the first phase and 45s of the second. The first phase increased length + additional mobs to mez would decrease the overall raid dps even further probably pushing it past 2 minute mark b/c casters would run oom as well.
 
Tev, you really just don't have a good idea of how powerful stuff we had back then was. The fact that raid dps parses show dps being about the same or a little higher now is simply because our characters have more gear, WAY more tomes, more optimal raid setups, etc.

EVERY SINGLE 4.3 weapon has been nerfed.
Custo Sword used to proc ICE COMET
Robes gave CSI10 THAT WORKED ON ALL SPELLS, INCLUDING FAST HEALS/NUKES
Two Minutes of Vah Back. Anyone that knows what vah back does knows how insanely powerful that is.
Fae Robes were 40%
Tons of loot had more raw hp/mana/ac
Channeling Gave pretty much every character more spell crit
Necros lost their broke spreading DOT thing that killed all rujik adds, and gave caster group 20-30% bonus mana.
etc

Single raid parses are a terrible way to compare these things, they are hugely variable.

If guilds are *expected* to farm hundreds of opuses , supremes, full 43 gear for most of their raid, then yeah they can break into T13.

The mantra that "nobody else is good enough to kill the things we do" is just stupid. Characters have less potential power than they used to, and if SF didnt already have maxed out characters, they wouldn't ever kill T13. The fact that we struggle on it and OOM makes it abundantly obvious that this is the case.

Last night we had a blazewind attempt that we did right and we lost because we didnt use COTB. If SF with half its toons in full T13 gear, supreme, and every viable opus requires COTB on an attempt without other mistakes, how is a guild without all of that supposed to have a chance.
 
That blazewind attempt definitely was not done the right way lol. That one rujik kill parse i posted was done in 601 seconds. rujik has an estimated 6.6 mil hp. To kill the mob in 610 seconds, you'd need 10820 raid dps. To achieve this, every dps would need to do 902 dps on their own, as well as both tanks and all 5 healers doing a combined total of 902 dps. This isnt unattainable by a tier 12 raid on a fight like rujik. Maybe I'm arrogant because i think that the hardest killable content in the game requires 18 well progressed and geared characters played at a very high skill level to kill. Until a guild progresses and kills sharn ree this thread is mostly irrelevant anyways.

Realistically though i dont think a guild will hit the point where they 2 tanks 5 efficient healers and 11 dps who push their toons to the max with a bunch of them having vah backs. If a guild gets to the point where they are knocking on the door of tier 13 mobs then maybe they should be tuned a bit more but honestly a mostly unboxed raid of dudes with good toons can kill some tier13 monsters with 0 tier 13 items equipped
 
Im sure its possible. I'm just saying its *harder* than it was before. And seeing as when it was first beat it took 18 real people who were all competent a lot of attempts, it just seems unreasonable to not adjust things.
 
Here we can see that the raid DPS isnt that great. For comparison, here is a undergeared undertomed character from 2014 vs rujik.
Nebi
--- DMG: 529410 (8.08%) @ 1117 dps (1112 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 122586 @341dps

hey bro i had cunning ok
 
ref: rujik vid
EVERY SINGLE 4.3 weapon has been nerfed.
let's count the 4.3 2 handers. solosolki, .... uhh, zorlon (pre-aod change) .... okay.
Custo Sword used to proc ICE COMET
I'm a little surprised you even brought this up, it kinda reeks of desperation, or hoping no one will call you out. Ice Comet was removed from Custo sword literal months before we got intimate with Dr. Moktar, I mean they are so far apart that I don't think rujik/ree even existed by the time comet was removed. Paging Reehs
Robes gave CSI10 THAT WORKED ON ALL SPELLS, INCLUDING FAST HEALS/NUKES
okay let's play the counting game again, 4.3 robe.... reinhardt... lleoc.... well, i guess at least they could nuke faster??
Two Minutes of Vah Back. Anyone that knows what vah back does knows how insanely powerful that is.
This is true and still the only I can get on board with. Except for oneeeeee big problem... who on this raid had this mystical vah back? Solosolki, Lleoc, Zurkka, Glorax, umm... yeah, it was gross, but to suggest we were progressing with a treasure chest of vah backs is a real stretch dude. Oh, let's not forget how bad vah back was on a monk, ranger, rogue, magician, etc. It had ATK added later to compensate.
Fae Robes were 40%
really? :\ I'm not trying to troll you, but you cannot look me in the eye and tell me you think that matters at all.
Tons of loot had more raw hp/mana/ac
Sure, loot we did not yet have. we're talking like net 20 or so hp/mana per character.
Channeling Gave pretty much every character more spell crit
valid, but statistically insignificant. When dealing with something like 2-3 extra percent on a binary conclusion, you made math nerds cringe. it's nearly equally likely that you do more damage post-nerf[/quote]
Necros lost their broke spreading DOT thing that killed all rujik adds, and gave caster group 20-30% bonus mana.
etc
simply rooted in fantasy man. In my vid we kill one add. Sure, I think there was ONE kill where the adds were bugged and had 1 hp, but to suggest that this was a regular thing is kind of insulting to those of us who were there. My video was like the 4th kill.

The mantra that "nobody else is good enough to kill the things we do" is just stupid.
this has never been the mantra of anyone. I've tried and tried, and I don't know how else to drive this home man, the only reason people don't progress is because they choose not to. The only person who thinks "FWF was great" is you - and it's rose tinted glasses - we had our fair share of not-so-good players. For some guilds, it's about loot, and indeed farming basement is still probably the best way to improve your character. Others find enjoyment in beating new fights. Exo and CW were both so far beyond where we were on our first kills. You are trying to balance around human nature.

Last night we had a blazewind attempt that we did right and we lost because we didnt use COTB. If SF with half its toons in full T13 gear, supreme, and every viable opus requires COTB on an attempt without other mistakes, how is a guild without all of that supposed to have a chance.

That was not a good attempt. It was a massive fuckup, which turned an easy win to a wipe in 10 seconds flat. and that is why that fight is awesome

Ultimately solo I'm just disappointing that you're putting so much effort into getting one of the last truly awesome things about this game nerfed. You ruin the sense of accomplishment for anyone who may end up attempting them. They aren't supposed to be easy. We wiped for a month on some fights. The fights do not need changed, they are *easier* now than ever. What do you call nostalgia for something that never existed? Phantom pains?

as Tev pointed out, raid dps is much higher now! fletching change, bane change (plz understand how pc aux works before you post a parse), autofire, ranger r2, enc aod/boon, rogues benefitting from overhaste, your elementary evo tome, other tomes, other things. Overall, the game has moved in a good direction in terms of balance. And please stop pointing out all these items that we all know very few/no one had on our FIRST KILLS. I respect your opinion and put a lot of time researching this myself, because if you succeed it will be the end of time in this game. A game with no challenge doesn't interest me. tbh, that statement might help your cause!

sorry if I sound trolly or whatever, that's just how I speak, it's not intentional. Obviously solo is a great friend but this whole thing is just pure myth with potentially devastating results.
 

i wanted to not just like this post, but also post myself about how much more accurate it is than any other post solo has made. sorry bro. i'd post all the buffs that have happened too but i feel like you would just ignore them and continue saying high tier stuff is impossible to break into cause of thing xyz.

the only legit post about balancing high tier stuff in this thread was made by Skos.
 
Large brick of text

Really good post with a lot of cool ideas IMO about the rogue poisons however offtopic they were/are great ideas would love to see some of these actually implemented instead of o look more molten lead poisons.

I like the idea of pet stancing providing some more damage as a slow drain similar to mages and think it would be a good idea (obviously less powerful than mage stances but similar) And i also like how it forces them to choose between dpsing and allowing them to tank via stances.

The only thing i can honestly say im uncertain on about Skos post is the balancing of gloves/weps and how to apply them to bsts/monks without breaking them one way or another.

Otherwise great post with good suggestions.

P.S. on an unrelated note im not sure where the hell rangers come up with space to put all there shit i mean seriously 1 bag of quivers is basically standard if not more than 1 bag plus another 4-5 slots of partially unused arrows plus the standard bags of clickies/gear swaps. You guys are saints im a bard carrying i think last i checked 6 instruments and i still struggle to find space to carry things and still be able to loot.
 
Yeah the quiver system seems like it would be pretty annoying but then again rangers are stupidly good dps so I guess it's a trade-off (although that doesn't mean the arrow system is good).
 
P.S. on an unrelated note im not sure where the hell rangers come up with space to put all there shit i mean seriously 1 bag of quivers is basically standard if not more than 1 bag plus another 4-5 slots of partially unused arrows plus the standard bags of clickies/gear swaps. You guys are saints im a bard carrying i think last i checked 6 instruments and i still struggle to find space to carry things and still be able to loot.

my ranger doesnt have every quiver and is over 1 bag close to a bag and a half.
 
I could point out a number of inaccuracies/counterpoints here, but I'm tired of it.

I think nerfs hit harder than buffs. Undoubtedly they did for my character, and BST/Monks.

I guess the core point in all this is I think there should not be such a massive difficulty/gearcheck disparity between t13 and prior content. I think T13 fights are challenging/difficult because of mechanics and don't need to be massive gearchecks.
 
Back
Top Bottom