main quest progression

Paxit

Dalayan Elder
Does it make any sense to have the 3 faction bands like blackscale , COI and silver crown augs/ally maxed for main quest progression into refuge anymore?
Can these be made optional to go back and max out and still get into refuge or rather the captains log turn in to brother kromtash as long as main quest is current (ie. high seeker aug) so newer players dont have to spend weeks of faction grinding just to experience the refuge portions of mainquest?
thoughts on this...
 
Does not make sense at all to change this, lore-wise. So I am against this proposal.
 

I don't mean this in a jerkish way, but what has changed? The only thing I can think of is the population, and none of these ever really need the kind of help to be affected much by low pop imo. Doesn't seem to make any less sense than before. They have always been a relatively tedious grind, and it's only gonna get worse when they have to camp mobs like Hrig, heh.
 
I've grinded all 3 factions multiple times and I still think it should be required. You can start the faction quests at a very early stage in the MQ, and most of the faction quests are meant to be progressed as you level. Some even have half decent rewards for the level/effort involved and give good experience along the way if you're "on-tier."

I do get where you're coming from being that they are really tedious and can take a long time even with all the resources in the game at your fingertips, but at what point would you make it required to be finished? The level of difficulty between doing Hate Fury B and even Kromtash's entry quests are pretty significant to a new player, especially when considering the rarity of groups lately.
 
it just seems it would speed the player along a bit to get into the raid game as well as more refuge porters, im sure many a player will grind that aug out anyways but doing it as a requirement for upgrading seeker augs seems redundant.
 
it just seems it would speed the player along a bit to get into the raid game as well as more refuge porters, im sure many a player will grind that aug out anyways but doing it as a requirement for upgrading seeker augs seems redundant.
I fail to see the point of this argument:
  1. HFB is not required to get to Ikisith.
  2. Raid zones in Ikisith aren't exactly entry level.
  3. There is not a single raid zone where Dreadlands is the convenient port to use.
  4. Nothing stops you from entering raid zones w/o finished heartlands faction aug. Sure, you might need someone else to open the zone for you, but that exists in other places as well, HL faction or not. (I'm looking at you, Grobb Undercity!)
 
Its still a hurdle that makes little sense in an age where we are struggling to get new players , faction grinding is not the best mechanic in rpg's. Just trying to find ways to remove a few roadblocks and this seems to be one of those.
 
I don't think Pax's idea of lowering the bar to entry is all that unreasonable.

Wait, let me stop you there before you go on about how everyone had to do it and you've done it so many times. Yeah me too. And after the 3rd or 4th time doing it I was like "I don't know what I was bitching about before." But now I am in a position where the CC dwarves don't have to be carefully pulled and I have a much wider selection of friends and guildmates to help me. This game is all about the struggle but it is pretty much the last MMO out there that is.

Yes, you don't even have to have started the MQ to go and get murk flagged. Yes, murk is central enough that it is just about all you need to get around but its still like a 15min run from murk to Claw. Jimawbop comes to mind. He is an IRL friend who loves this game but he just can't play it. He has maybe three hours of play time a week and spending 20mins buffing and another 20mins traveling to get somewhere pretty much makes this game unplayable for him. In an era in this game where new player retention is more important than ever saying "Thats how it is" is the online equivalent of "evolution is for suckers, we'll be fine."

Hell, even from a lore stand point having to complete your ranks in HL factions doesnt make any sense. After the dryads are done factions usefulness effectively dries up. Shaina doesn't even have a good reason for it. She is like "They might be able to help us get to Iksith!" and then 2 seeker upgrades later and she is like "Oh, wait never mind the orcs got this." And you NEVER talk about factions AGAIN. So "it doesn't fit in with the lore" is a bullshit cop out.

Lore-wise, Silvercrown is like the only faction that remotely makes any sense as an ally because their presence is pretty overt. They own Newport, they are pretty much the only trade company between cities and they have the boats and army to try to retake Freeport. Blackscale are little more than an organized gang whose home base is the asshole of Dalaya where no one else wants to live. CoI are Jayla light and have no interest in anything that isnt knowledge and robots. None of them have any effect on the story after Undercaverns, in fact they are almost entirely forgotten. Its like some dev was like "Well, I made it so you have to do it!"

If factions were really that important then someone would have finished Blackscale or CoI but they didn't and they wont.

Letting someone get refuge flagged if they have completed through Undercaverns doesn't alter the story AT ALL. Making it so the fresh 65 isn't spending 15-30mins running to where the group is fighting because they couldn't get the port might just be considered more fun for everyone.
 
without any bearing on the stuff you said, how does anyone take 15 minutes to go from murk to cita??
 
Getting to refuge and factioning to port status is alot more server friendly then grinding murk port. with only 3 ways to get to ikisith which would you wana do as a new player? Main quest makes more sense overall the other 2 options not so appealing. getting access to runic spell line a tad quicker well thats hands down better for all of us. Getting players to heavy lfg group/farm zones like bloodquarry and citadel is a positive thing.
This is just some of the positives, there was a push to make this game more accessable and reasonable to an average gamer awile back. remove the hurdle and I bet you will get nothing but praise from the gamers that benefit from it or even the ones that just wana make a 10 th alt.
 
I could see maybe a faction route that allows you to access some stuff quicker or bypass some stuff, at least to allow you access to some things so you can raid, but if you want an aug with stats, IMO you should do the same as everyone else.
 
I could see maybe a faction route that allows you to access some stuff quicker or bypass some stuff, at least to allow you access to some things so you can raid, but if you want an aug with stats, IMO you should do the same as everyone else.

Couldn't agree more. I don't think they should get upgrades to their seeker or a free ride on their faction, just the ability to do the entry quest so they can get a port.

without any bearing on the stuff you said, how does anyone take 15 minutes to go from murk to cita??

Sorry, I just timed it and its a 9min 21 sec run from murk port to zone in to Cita with just run 3. That seems a lot more reasonable.
 
Yeah, sorry, didn't want to nitpick, but was like, if you get the evac you'll get from the porter (since most won't do the shield quest), and have any kind of run speed buff, it's more like 5 min unless your zone times are awful, heh. Read 15 and was like, are they dropping a shoulder and barreling into BQ through Tears or something? lol
 
"faction grinding is not the best mechanic".

Its not a mechanic to a new player, its an exciting plot and exploration. This is what makes the game "shards of dalaya". Its what got me hooked, and its what hooks others.
 
Players will still grind this aug out. I never suggested removing it. Just give them more options if they wana do mainquest upto refuge and come back to faction aug it should and can be a choice with very little impact on the lore the same way the dragon and giant faction aug functions. The negative consequences are very little if any to this being an option. I must point out though that this aug has very little to do with the raid aspect of the server in its current state as compared to getting up to runic spells and farming zones. I cannot imagine any raid leader or guildleader saying "oh man I wish my new recruit could spend an extra few weeks or month doing an aug instead of getting runic spells and refuge port first"
 
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bumping this topic , I would really like to hear some more opinions on this by the staff and/or community and how difficult of thing it would be to implement dev wise?
 
I speculate that it's not an easy fix. Also why fix what isn't broken? I understand that it's a qol thing, but it still works and staff has a pile of things to do that is sufficiently large to escape a good adjective for its enormity.
 
bumping this topic , I would really like to hear some more opinions on this by the staff and/or community and how difficult of thing it would be to implement dev wise?
From what it sounds like, essentially what you're asking is to completely throw away most of the lore and story of Refuge which would have to be either removed or all rewritten just to get to Refuge quicker. The whole refuge storyline is very much integrated into the main quest both up to now and presumably even more so into the future. Removing that would break lore, quests, and nothing would make any sense.

If you need easy porting access to Ikisith, Murk is pretty much standalone and doesn't require anything but the ability to get to Ikisith. As Nwaij said you can raid any zone in Ikisith without Refuge if you really do not want to do it for some reason.
 
Blackscale , Silvercrown or COI are part of refuge lore ? I know heartlands is basically part of main quest lore sure but after those is it really part of anything other then gaining the aug upgrades?

Changing anything other then the barrier to makes you progress to final augment and ally within your faction to proceed with refuge mainquest requires a rewrite?

How many guilds have recruited a new player within lets say since 2.5 launched that have stayed in a stagnant non 65 non raid communtiy here (guildleaders chime in here)?
We are faced with recycling every player that has existed on this server for years to raid tier 10+ content with very little fresh meat making its was up. The amount of time it takes to get up to tier 10+ raiding is too much, this comes from many many years of recruiting new players and trying to get them up to speed to fit a changed server from what it was long ago. Im sure many of the top guilds are perfectly doing fine with recycling long time existing community members in their raids but im also sure if we had the choice we would gladly like to see newer players in the cool club that exists currently instead of timmy the two years gone and im back to raid type toons.

Removing this prequisite after you do heartlands/mainquest strengthens the top four guilds ability to get new players in with the current state of things going in SoD. I firmly believe after many years of leading a guild on SoD that the grind time crunch is a big factor in todays day and age of whether a new player is going to stay and help in the long term or just go to the next game after a brief experience on SoD. A small concession such as this would go a long way not only for the top 4 guilds but the server community as a whole.

The new players probably will not have a voice on this topic but if it was to be polled somehow im sure many would say yeah I want to get caught up to these guys (SoD raid guilds) a little bit quicker.
 
From what it sounds like, essentially what you're asking is to completely throw away most of the lore and story of Refuge which would have to be either removed or all rewritten just to get to Refuge quicker. The whole refuge storyline is very much integrated into the main quest both up to now and presumably even more so into the future. Removing that would break lore, quests, and nothing would make any sense.

I dont feel that its as open and shut as that.
True that it would be a lot of extra work for an overworked team but I don't think, as someone who loves lore of games in general, that it disrupts the established lore as much as people are making it out to seem.

Once the undercaverns part of the quest is completed (which I personally think should be a requirement and is not at all difficult), MQ factions have nothing to do with the story (as far as the player base is concerned). If Iksith 2.5 or 3.0 or 1.1.5b opens up an invasion involving the MQ factions I could totally see it but that is beyond the scope of the player base and beyond the expectation of the player base to be released any time soon. That being said even Shaina, the one who sends you on the fool's errand, abandons them as quickly as their usefulness dries up and another option appears. None of the HFb events involve MQ factions, none of the refuge quests involve factions, none of the Iksith quests involve factions at all. There is NO involvement of factions after that. They are a stepping stone *spoilers* to find out something doesn't work. Again, if factions were at all important to the lore of this game, which they are pretty clearly not, then 2 of the 3 factions would also have finished quests but they don't. As I understand how projects work for the Dev team, they never will be finished either. Outside of the MQ you have to go out of your way in the old world to find mentions of Kaezul beyond areas he fucked over. Even there they talk about the effect he has (plague) and not on the story that has developed. So to say it breaks lore is pretty weak tea.

There is no basis for actually understanding how the old world works. Its been 15 years in game since Newport's founding. Is that from the day they laid the first stone (them some real good contractors) or the day Newport looked like we as players see it? Its been 55 years in game since we started reclaiming the lands taken and ruined by Kaezul but we have to run around to find people who remember it (all from the MQ). A total of just over 150 years since his actual invasion. There is an elf that still remembers, are elves (like most fantasy games) significantly long lived? What is the average life expectancy of a human? Why is there an "ancient elven culture" that has greater magical knowledge than has been seen before, located in human lands, when Elves themselves are not so much older of a race than any of the young races? Why is Underhill, one of the last to fall to Kaezul and still struggling to feed its people, not at all worried about his return? How is it that 150 years has passed and someone who destroyed half of the known world and set the playable races back probably 300 years not still fresh on every NPCs lips? It destroyed the largest old world civilization in history, cause more than half of the dark elves turn on their own and left all they had known and loved tainted and scarred but no one loses sleep of his return?

If we are to assume the hero fantasy, the first time your character does anything is the first time its been done. Information would have trickled back through the raiding events that occur from time to time that the old world has gained in strength and there is an organized movement (seekers) actively defending its lands and that they have found ways to undo some of the damage that has been done (athica, kelethin). The refugees would absolutely be looking for high ranking contacts in this movement but by the end of the heartlands chain you are already tied with Gavin and presumably one of the very few who actually get to talk to Shaina. Not to mention falling back to hero fantasy, youre one of the first people from the old world to voluntarily step onto Iksith and go looking for an organization that is also looking for you. You cannot bring any force you have earned from MQ faction to bear. Any incursion from Blackscale or Silver Crown would be met with instant aggression or mist rendering them moot and any supplies from Silver Crown or CoI (again failing to feed their own people) would tip off the location of the refugees or risk falling into enemy hands again tipping them off to your arrival. No amount of cigars or gnomish sex robot fantasies you fulfill changes that outcome up to where the player base is able to reach.

Allowing new players access to runic spells or ports changes very little in the long run with balance but makes a large difference to new players and what they feel they can accomplish while playing with others. I am not suggesting that we allow new players to bypass MQ factions by any stretch or to award them augments but taking down some of the longer time sink barriers to this games interesting lore and class features might do well to keeping new player base. Removing or lowering the barrier does not decrease the amount of people in Iksith, it does not decrease the difficulty in the content. It might increase player satisfaction, it might encourage class diversity and it could increase player longevity. What feels better "Oh, its gonna rot. Loot it because you'll need it some day." or "Great, you got a piece for your Runic spell. That really rounds out the class."

I know personally, seeing that I had to get up to R1 or R2 on a beastlord to get the most out of the class was a turn off for me before I did any refuge quests. It is more of a turn off for me now that I have.

TL;DR: Lore excuse is weak tea. There is a lot of time invested to get access to all your class can do. Lowering the bar to entry but not the bar for rewards might help us as a server in the long run.
 
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