[Wiki] Let's talk Lists

[Snake]

I think we should do some sort of score system.

Personally I'd like to keep it as simple as possible.

Each item scores 1 point per tier.
Each tome is 1 point.
Each quested or "rare drop" spell 1 point.
Each quested or "rare drop" aug 1 point.
Vah, Tears of Elael, Old Halloween quest (the new is shit, doesn't matter) 1 point each.
15-19 Deity 1 point. 20 Deity = 2 points.

Perhaps give extra points for the very rare items.
3 point each, on top of their tier for having, 4.3 robe, Rohk's Diamond, Rohk Book and Jyre.


Could also give 1 point for still playing....

 

[jumbers]

I think we should do some sort of score system.

Personally I'd like to keep it as simple as possible.

Each item scores 1 point per tier.
Each tome is 1 point.
Each quested or "rare drop" spell 1 point.
Each quested or "rare drop" aug 1 point.
Vah, Tears of Elael, Old Halloween quest (the new is shit, doesn't matter) 1 point each.
15-19 Deity 1 point. 20 Deity = 2 points.

Perhaps give extra points for the very rare items.
3 point each, on top of their tier for having, 4.3 robe, Rohk's Diamond, Rohk Book and Jyre.


Could also give 1 point for still playing....

This is the opposite of simple.

 

[Snake]

This is the opposite of simple.

Sure, it's more simple to just look at the char's, and say "I think this is the top 5 list", but then its a very subjective list.

I guess thats fine, but personally I think its a joke. Why I don't really care who is on the top 5 list currently, cause its mostly just a subjective list anyway.


Oh and by more complicated, I ment like first of all the score value, one could argue that Class tomes should count more than pet tomes, that the Rujik aug should count for more than the CC aug...

Also points for clickers in general, like dispell clicker for tanks, evac hat for those who can wear, ect ect, ToT weapon.. .hmm ToT weapon should be 1 point in retrospect...


Anyway, that just my point of view, to give the list actual value, as an objective list. Obv its more complicated than a subjective list, so just go with that, and I will continue to not care, and everyone is happy

Oh, charms should deff also give points.. I'm sloppy...

 

[Kedrin]

I'm so confused.

 

[Nwaij]

I think we should do some sort of score system.

Personally I'd like to keep it as simple as possible.

Each item scores 1 point per tier.
Each tome is 1 point.
Each quested or "rare drop" spell 1 point.
Each quested or "rare drop" aug 1 point.
Vah, Tears of Elael, Old Halloween quest (the new is shit, doesn't matter) 1 point each.
15-19 Deity 1 point. 20 Deity = 2 points.

Perhaps give extra points for the very rare items.
3 point each, on top of their tier for having, 4.3 robe, Rohk's Diamond, Rohk Book and Jyre.


Could also give 1 point for still playing....

Sure, it's more simple to just look at the char's, and say "I think this is the top 5 list", but then its a very subjective list.

I guess thats fine, but personally I think its a joke. Why I don't really care who is on the top 5 list currently, cause its mostly just a subjective list anyway.


Oh and by more complicated, I ment like first of all the score value, one could argue that Class tomes should count more than pet tomes, that the Rujik aug should count for more than the CC aug...

Also points for clickers in general, like dispell clicker for tanks, evac hat for those who can wear, ect ect, ToT weapon.. .hmm ToT weapon should be 1 point in retrospect...


Anyway, that just my point of view, to give the list actual value, as an objective list. Obv its more complicated than a subjective list, so just go with that, and I will continue to not care, and everyone is happy

Oh, charms should deff also give points.. I'm sloppy...

You should make an exhaustive list of everything that gives points (and how many points), then apply this to every character on the current top5 list, and post that somewhere. Please turn in a detailed paper with your findings by the weekend.

 

[Snake]

I guess the most simple way, is for fomelo to calculate it for us.

Perhaps then a tier system, is bad. Perhaps it should just give points for mana, ac and HP. Stats, resists and Tomes. FT, ATK, Regen, Skills, focus effects, ect ect ect.(could add points for AA's too, once that gets fixed).

Can fomelo check inventory? Bags? If so could also give some sort of points for "special items" it can find in the inventory. Like ToT clicker, Soverign, Dispell clickers, Heal clickers, damage bonus clickers, overhaste, pet clickers, combine, and so on.



Could be cool, list would manage it self with some clever coding once created; but then again, it will take far more work and thoughts, than just making a subjective list.
(Also the score could make a total ranking list (not just top 5), and when LFG, could say like /ooc 8958 score Cleric LFG... And ppl be like "Naw man, need atleast 30.000 to go to EF, sorry bro".

 

[Nwaij]

Thank you for volunteering to make the list of what is worth points (and how many), and for writing all the code required to automate all of it. Looking forward to see the results of your hard work!

 

[Rari]

I'm in stitches over this.

Just to give you a super vague idea of how absurd this gets from a wiki viewpoint, say there are 50 to 250 items per raid tier on the wiki. That's pretty close, for rough numbers. Multiply the average of that (150 items) by the number of raid tiers (14) to get the scope of how many items you'd be looking at numbering (over 2,000).

Then you have to look at methodology. Is a tome equal to boots always? How do you value each item? And then how do you value it per class? So let's say even if you were really lazy and somehow justified only coming up with one number for tanks, one for melee, one for casters and one for healers. Which would be lazy, but this is a hypothetical, so I'll let you get away with it. Now you're at over 8 thousand numbers. See where I'm going with this? This is now your life for the next 5 years. And at some point slaariel is going to rebalance something so you'll have to start over.

You'd be better off establishing stat cap and effect goals per class and establishing your values from there imo, but I also don't care.

 

[Jmayzak]

So then you divide the work load of 8000 items to 20 editors (generous), over time. If the current top 5 was active for five years (a guess), then every editor only needs to edit 80 items a year for the next 5 years. Could do 80 items on a saturday with a cup of coffee.

Realistically, the wiki, forums, and fomelo is for people bored at work on slow days. They'd crank this out in a few months.

BUT at this point my comment is just me having free time at work and wanting to debate numbers comically to no end. Phew

A faster way to do this, is to have skilled (and socially acceptable) players make video guides to a class. I know, i know, it sounds revolutionary, but its the future, you can safely invest in it.

 

[Tevinter]

A faster way to do this, is to have skilled (and socially acceptable) players make video guides to a class. I know, i know, it sounds revolutionary, but its the future, you can safely invest in it.

everything about a points system is pants on head retarded, but video guides is good. I'd be willing to make guides for a lot of classes. Enchanter, Cleric, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, and Wizard are all classes I could confidently make a gearing guide for without any further effort/research on my part.

if there is interest I could probably get an enchanter one posted later today

 

[Snake]

I'm in stitches over this.

Just to give you a super vague idea of how absurd this gets from a wiki viewpoint, say there are 50 to 250 items per raid tier on the wiki. That's pretty close, for rough numbers. Multiply the average of that (150 items) by the number of raid tiers (14) to get the scope of how many items you'd be looking at numbering (over 2,000).

Then you have to look at methodology. Is a tome equal to boots always? How do you value each item? And then how do you value it per class? So let's say even if you were really lazy and somehow justified only coming up with one number for tanks, one for melee, one for casters and one for healers. Which would be lazy, but this is a hypothetical, so I'll let you get away with it. Now you're at over 8 thousand numbers. See where I'm going with this? This is now your life for the next 5 years. And at some point slaariel is going to rebalance something so you'll have to start over.

You'd be better off establishing stat cap and effect goals per class and establishing your values from there imo, but I also don't care.

I did re state an even simpler way.

The fomelo, it has all the stats of chars right.

Just add em all up, HP+AC+MANA+STR+..........+#AA+#tomes.......

There you go.

Then you might say, well thats just dumb, 1 AA should clearly be more than 1 hp, and 1 tome should clearly be more than 1 AA.

Alright, add in some multipliers.

HP+AC*3+MANA+STR*5+.......+#AA*15+#tomes*50...

A simple way to find the multipliers, would be to use augments as an indication.
Top AC aug is 5. Top HP aug is 15. So AC should be *3 more weightet than HP's.

Lots of ways, doesn't have to make it more complicated than it is, the data is all there.

 

[jumbers]

I did re state an even simpler way.

The fomelo, it has all the stats of chars right.

Just add em all up, HP+AC+MANA+STR+..........+#AA+#tomes.......

There you go.

Then you might say, well thats just dumb, 1 AA should clearly be more than 1 hp, and 1 tome should clearly be more than 1 AA.

Alright, add in some multipliers.

HP+AC*3+MANA+STR*5+.......+#AA*15+#tomes*50...

A simple way to find the multipliers, would be to use augments as an indication.
Top AC aug is 5. Top HP aug is 15. So AC should be *3 more weightet than HP's.

Lots of ways, doesn't have to make it more complicated than it is, the data is all there.

Every time you've posted this so far in this thread saying it's simple, you've made it even more convoluted and arbitrary. You can't boil down everything to a single number and expect it to be useful at all.

You can feel free to make your own ranking system and maintain a list of every character on your Geocities site, but we're not going to waste valuable dev time writing something that makes no sense and just serves to encourage elitism beyond what already exists.

 

[Snake]

Thats fine, keep the elitism subjective then, to the belives of a few perspons oppinion.

Imo a value system is not elitism, its a way to messure your progress compared to others, in the form of a number, a Benchmark if you will.
Sure even such a number will reflect the value, that what ever the rules give it. Say you make HP count for alot, well to win the game, you now have to aug HP and just go for high hp items, and obv, thats not how you make your best char (at least thats my oppinion).


My claim of it being simple may be far fetched, I'm just saying the data is there. Saying that the aug system already reflect a value of stats... Throwing out idea's how to make an automatic list, based on the data from fomelo...

But dude, don't have a cow lol

Didn't realize this elitism was such serious business, sowwy

 

[Kedrin]

I believe there is simply a misunderstanding. You wish to put a set value on things that represent how good they are for specific classes when the top5 list is already doing these things without the complications of setting up the nightmare numeric value system in the first place.

Top 5 isn't a popularity contest. Some people just have a deep understanding of classes and can see how one character is more advanced, again at their class role, than another at a glance.

 

[huey]

Just out of curiosity, can we somehow opt out of being put on these lists (or can some mechanism be put in place with which to do so?)? I ask because I was told that if I removed myself or asked someone else to do so, that I would just be put right back on.

 

[Jmayzak]

Deleting your gear will get you off it.

 

[Snake]

I believe there is simply a misunderstanding. You wish to put a set value on things that represent how good they are for specific classes when the top5 list is already doing these things without the complications of setting up the nightmare numeric value system in the first place.

Top 5 isn't a popularity contest. Some people just have a deep understanding of classes and can see how one character is more advanced, again at their class roll, than another at a glance.

Fair point for sure, very diplomatic written too

Also 2 posts got deleted from this thread;whom ever did it, good job! I'm not being ironic, removing childish back and forward shit, is apperently needed. +1

 

[fuwok]

see how one character is more advanced, again at their class roll

When you're doing your class roll is it 3d6, 4d6 drop lowest, or point buy?

 

[huey]

Deleting your gear will get you off it.

Soon enough...

 

[iBluNT]

Soon enough...

Don't worry I took you off.