4.3 Loot balancing!

I mean, honestly, some of those items could actually use something to make them more useful if anything.
 
Interesting thought Shayken. Unfortunately that leaves those that already have the loot with not a lot of reason to progress for multiple tiers in those slots. Not very conducive to wanting to do new content. Also Sabuti, BiS will always be BiS, but BiS will constantl change. Unfortunately with the power level of thaqt loot it would be BiS for way too many tiers if you logically look at loot progression. We are not againts BiS, just a BiS that never changes.
 
I really dont think bard sword needs revamped. Bards arent doing top dps by any stretch. They already sacrifice a 2nd detri song by using the sword in the first place.
 
Xorz said:
The weapons are all meh. Half the classes dont even wear their class weapons as end game loot. And the other stuff isnt OP
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I do agree to this, the only other class than bard i see have their 4.3 weapon in use all the time is Enchanter, sometimes ill see wizards using the 1h version, but most the time not. bst use their weapon alot, and monks only wear it when tanking for the most part. As far as how strong the bard weapon is, the clicky, gives a base of 161 attack, and is effected by instrument mods, leading up to 312 attk at 2.5 percussion mod. on top of that, its -35% stamina loss, which is a good amount, allowing us to stay in our dps stance for the longer fights without running out. The bigger downsides to the weapon, which ill agree with Lleoc when he says its a crutch is that its Primary only, and has +10 agress, causing bards to pull more agro than they want, but this at least lets bards utilize their jolt song line, but just like Tanks and the Robe, there has yet to be a weapon a bard would use over 4.3 sword. Bards see very little dps (300-500 to tier 10/11) along the tiers until that sword. Caretakers Will and a Yivslayer combo with Blademaster IV will leave a bard around 700-800 dps, putting a Custo sword in the place of one of those and they might get up to 900, and on dragons maybe 1k, but the chances of a bard having Rhythm of the Blademaster III and IV before they end up with a 4.3 sword is very low, so Bards really do not get out of the 400-500 dps range until they get carried through that fight, then they see a dps jump of 350-450. Bards rely heavily on the 4.3 weapon as their source of dps.

If the Bard sword is not in the sights of items to be changed, then ill stop here, but as far as huge jumps go, 4.3 robe goes above T13, while bard sword catches them up in the dps category.
 
Xorz said:
Tone down robe AC.. Give it other benefits to other classes. Casting speed X or whatever. Tone down Jyre. Un-nerf Cella. AOD a cooldown. Leave the rest alone imo
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I don't think Jyre is too strong for what you sacrifice. If you nerf the item you need to introduce a quest to "purify" your character in exchange for jyre.
 
Well I am hoping horoks gets a good look at with this balancing. In the Hands of a Bst its a great item, in the hands of a Mnk a alright item. There is a bit of difference between the weapon in the two different classes, and honestly, its because the two classes have too much difference between them. Monks have different needs from weapons than Bsts. My own parses show that Horoks current setup is as strong a bare-fist (1k base Str/dex + Buffs). Without a good secondary though the idea of swapping it in for DPS is meh. It is however a useful stat stick while still retaining some DPS. Personally, I'd just prefer a less DPS sustain item for auxing, Rampage, WW, off-Tanking. Bsts of course would very much NOT prefer such a change, and because of this, I kinda think Horoks should have two different versions. A Bst and a Mnk version. Monks when using a weapon kinda think along the terms of Tankage with a little DPS; while bsts think of a long delay and decent proc-or proc rate- for mimicing. If you were to do this, I personally have a suggestion or two for the mnk version. I leave the Bst side to the bst.

Suggestion#1: A decent lifetap/Leech proc.

A lifetap proc can be useful without doing DPS. I think in terms of what a Mnk would equip a weapon for, it would do decent, and it would be a DPS decrease. Leeches are pretty good, but not great DPS/Sustain due to Reprocs. Honestly, I'd settle for old Horoks procs. Its not like the Over-writing Regen matters to mnks anymore, and the proc has a decent amount of Sustain/dmg. Though having rarely used the old horoks I can't say if its too strong or too weak.

Suggestion#2: A Beneficial Proc

So, right off the git-go you kinda have a really big area for this 1, but there are a few areas I can think of that would work with Monks. Runes similar to Enthann's Guard provide a Proc and something to help with Whirlwind, Rampage, Auxing, and off-tanking. If it has a decent proc-rate and timer (maybe 2 mins or so?) you could even benefit from it while Bare-fist, assuming it stacks with Rbow of course.

Next up, A self-heal or HoT. These are similar to lifetap/leech procs cept, no DPS on them. You can compensate for that with slightly stronger healing. This imho isn't that great of a solution, but something all the same. Over-haste, or even a Yaulp 4 proc can be useful, and this adds a sorta of swapping rhythm to mnks as they would be swapping the weapon in and out for them Yaulp procs. Sounds good in theory, don't think it would be that great in application.

Anyways, maybe someone else can think of something better for this section, which is the main reason I threw this in here. I'm sure people can come up with a decent idea here. Maybe even no proc, lots of Double-attack on the weapon, and a clicky.

Suggestion#3: Gloves

This one is a little weird, and would take a whole rework of the weapon. Something that I am assuming no one is up for, but would provide Mnks a in-between area for gloves. After all the gloves kinda go Silence (or UC gloves) ->BW Gloves its only a 4 tier jump.


And that is honestly all I got off the top of my head. I know this is centered around balancing loot, and a lot of my suggestions are rather sub-par, but my main goal isn't so much to push for these changes, as to get people thinking. Maybe someone comes up with a great, non-OP solution to the weapon and both Mnks and bsts get a benefit from the same weapon. Either way, I just want to point out that in the over-all idea of Mnks and Bsts sharing a weapon is a bit lopsided.


edit: Sorry to any that read this before I did some edits.
 
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A lot of clutter in this thread without good reasoning. Gather your thoughts and then post instead of real-time spamming.

There's one item I think everyone can agree upon that's the motive behind this thread. I think it was wrong to come out saying there's many items that need rebalancing in the light of new content. I agree with what Lleoc's saying and it's wrong to make a judgment based on something that could be x years away from now. There hasn't been any discussion over new content whatsoever - why not let the community know?

Is the robe too good? Yes, for a few classes. But other items really have no need to rebalance. If anyone wants to contribute possible solutions for these items, go for it but here's my thoughts on the ~3 items that should get attention.
- The ear is the only end-game worn reagent con, and in some cases the ONLY possible way for Marlow followers to even get a Ravenward clicky. Stats are not unfair.
- 1hs is great for evo. Many classes that wear this rarely use it for the proc, and again, stats are not unfair.
- 2hs is literally only worn on Enchanters because it only works well with Enchanters. I don't know the severity of its power because I never played with it but I've heard of it being very good. Might deserve a look.
- Mask is a good mask for Bards and Warriors, and about it. Very swappable with Turruj mask and doesn't show any sign of being too powerful.
- I liked Binsin's / Tev's post about Disso. Good item for Bards, but not many other swords out there you can even consider to wear. Also might deserve a look.
- Horok was already nerfed once, and is only worn by Beastlords. Monks use it for hitpoints go figure.
- Nightwhisper is a pretty good item overall but mainly used for ammo proc. Not anything to get upset about.
- Scales are pretty horrible, and might be the worst item from 4.3. The recast rate on the already bad DoT is bad.
- Soul Shepherd is a great item for Necros but its clicky for any other priest is very comparable with a Talin clicky. Granted the extra stats from the clicky are cool but don't touch this.
- Shoes are shoes. Balanced for any class from Wizard to Warrior to wear.
- Robe is robe. Deserves a look.
- Dagger needs to be a poison proc. Not sure why it hasn't been made yet, but yeah. In light of Traek Jr. coming back out, I can say that this isn't really the best dagger a Rogue can use anymore so I don't think it needs looking.

I'd really like to bring light to other topics instead of this for a change of thought. There's this monster in the game called Prime Warden Jenrok who's a T13 6-man encounter with very bad loot. I'm talking maybe 2-3 people wearing one of his items. And then you find out there's also a quest he's involved in. Which again gives very bad loot. For the level of difficulty this fight AND the quest takes - you have so much flexibility in item rework from this encounter.

I'll really only touch upon the quest items because they're the most shocking. The time and effort it takes to get these items is beyond any in the game, and the rewards are sub-par.
- Ranger bracer is OKAY. Its proc rate is VERY comparable to Hellhound bracer and only slightly better. The archery mod on it is so unnecessary already due to MQ aug, Spires bracer, and Archery gloves.
- Brd/Rog bracer is OKAY. Piercing mod could prove beneficial since there's limited slots with it, but hard to swap in for rogues and the proc doesn't exist. For bards, it's probably harder to swap in.
- Shaman bracer I like. That's a good one.
- Ravenclaw is on par with Acid Tongue in terms of DPS. I think the DI8 is interesting in some aspects, and the fact it has a back slot has potential, but again - it's a bow. I literally had to make a thread to even get this bow to WORK properly, since it didn't have a Range stat for however many months prior without notice / change.
- Peacegiver should have never been nerfed from its original H2H mod. Idk who actually took part in that, but it shouldn't have. Otherwise it's a good item.
- Robes I really don't know how to feel about. I think it's pretty neat for certain classes and gives a good CSI slot, but I'll let someone else touch on that.
- Sanctus I don't even know what to say. From what I've heard this item was intended to have the original Cella proc at a 19% rate or so, and even still would only be good on Warriors IF it had a Secondary slot. Mana drain would just mess Knights' day up.
- Raiment I also like along with Sham bracer. Good alteration source, CSI slot, stats, and also a neat clicky (also very beneficial on SK's with their pet mechanic).

Where I'm headed with all of this - you have a T12 fight with great items. You have a T13 fight that literally nobody wears or spends time farming. It's up for days at a time when you have people literally clawing at each other's necks for a shot at 4.3. There is something very wrong with this, and deserves more attention than you're giving to the status of 4.3.
 
Agreed Tev, not an enc fix but that is not what we are looking at currently. It would aleviate some of the overpowering though.
 
Deceptions Laughter: Seems balanced. Can make tank choices toward turruj face, so there is thought and options. (Ill argue that this item is REALLY close to custo face)

Voidstep: Mostly ends up being the participation reward and some take as interim loot till other upgrades. Tank options, better on War.

Black Pearl: BIS that i think its power is over exaggerated. If you have another ravenward clickie and swap for reagent 8, its ok.

Bane 1h Slash: I have this on a SK, its fun for some AoE aggro when soloing. Ive only seen it used situationally on other classes but mainly for its 5 evocation mod.

Bane 2h slash: I only see enchanters use this. Damage 10. Ive tried it on a SK, and i nuke myself more than i heal with lifetaps. Also, Paladins being able to go healer mod probably makes the class have options, although i dont see this happen much.

Scales of the Fallen: Cooldown is long, so i used on burn phase. I like that the dex and agi is high (on my cleric), these are rarer on priest loot.

Dissonatatus, Horok, Ysar: Class defining weapons for bard, beast, and rogue . Ysar i dont ever see used on a warrior, and a Horok is used when a monk tanks. Dont know much else.

Soul-Sheperd: I use as a cleric. there are times i use the T8 brood of blood. It would be easy to make better loot that shares a CD with this.

Nightwhisper: nice ammo proc versitility, could provide options later. Mainly used for damage inc 8. If other options were added later it would be an option

Xi Valla Kah: Cast Speed 8 is fine. Offense can be increased if you want melee to take more advantage of it. Two aug slots is fun. Stats are fine. Illusion is fine. This item seems fine for every class aside from tanks.

But obviously whatever MAGICAL thing this does for mitigation is the going to be the main discussion.
I say magical, because a robed tank with 2200 AC, will take way less damage than a Non-robed tank with 2359 Ac (the amount the robe supposedly adds) [Let alone 2500ac tank] {Someone is telling me Spell AC is better than normal AC...How much AC is it even?}

The cast system of Robed and non-robed tanks sucks.

Its hard enough playing a tank and trying to enjoy the class in groups. Its even harder to get into content if your not robed. (People are prefering to carry my SK through curator and 4.3 with a robed tank than to have me actually tank the mob)

The progression from Yclist BP, Spires BP, Custo BP, to Robe will take a sudden jump at robe and could be smoothed. But how do you smooth it?
 
Regarding Jenrok, I've been killing it basically on spawn the last 4 or 5 spawns and it is also a no shorter than 8 day respawn out of those kills. Honestly the time i spent in tunnels wasnt that bad, i spent 60 hours over 9 days to complete a robe and ring bow/wrist and mostly have another ring (from earlier farming) shoulder and sword done. So i'd say around 5.5 items done in that time. However the 8 day spawning jenrok who drops sidegrades could definitely be tweaked.
 
Emzur, thank you for your thoughts on 4.3. Anything else will be discussed at a later time. I can not speak for the Devs. I know bugs are being worked on as well as content. There has been no discussion on new content in some time. I know a lot of folks were more concerned about bugs getting fixed. That is happening. Just know that discussion of 4.3 is not taken lightly and not without merit.
 
I made a long winded air chatter about this just in the last couple weeks in Discord. I think the Kara'Kadar BP is the prime example of how overpowered the 4.3 robe is. They are both from T12 fights. The robe from a 6 man, the other from an 18 man, they have essentially the same stats, exchanging stun resist, damage reduction, FT, etc. for the CSI8 focus effect. Then you consider the AC, on which the robe surpasses the dragon hide by an asinine amount. with dual AC augs on the robe the AC difference is 64... It could already be argued that the loot from an 18 man should be better than that of a 6 man just based on historic threads on that topic. The question is does staff want to keep 4.3 loot unique and usable far into the future?

I suggest changing the robe AC to 75-85 (which is in line with Harn, MK, and Jenrok Combine Robe chest pieces) and making the worn effect a clicky. Reduce the AC that it gives the player by about half (because they will obviously swap it out), and give it a 2-3 minute uptime with a 20-30 minute cooldown to the likes of the ravenward/natureward/earthen ward set of clickies. Doing this would preserve the robe's usefullness essentially forever, and get rid of the "paper tank" problem.
 
The two items I always bitched about were Robe and Bard Sword.

Robe is pretty obviously overpowered, having talked to Marza about it a bunch he had assumed the spell ac on the worn effect would be divided by six like every other spell ac buff, and later it was found out it did not. It invalidates every other bp in the game. However, a handful of encounters are balanced around it, and without it some of them are going to need tuning. Also as tev pointed out Breastplate balance is a mess because of how over powered some of the bp procs are with how much things AOE at the high tiers, these items would also need looked at (lookin at you frost bp).

Bard sword on the other hand is not overly powerful, it's actually only a small dps upgrade over runic two (when not taking blademaster into account, this widens the gap ten fold because of how insane the ratio is on the sword). My problem with it is completely stylistic; bard sword + blademaster tomes completely changed the bard style of play. The class plays one way for the first ten tiers of the game, then does a 180 into something else. It limits utility song flexibility because you need to use blademaster to do any semblance of dps, and takes the bard from being ~60% song damage/40% melee dps, to like 70% melee/30% song dps.

Keeping in theme with the bard sword (high dps weapon that generates huge aggro) I'd change it to have a large Bellow proc, maybe 500 or 1k base, remove the +aggression, and put some sort of instrument mod on it (stringed or all?). But in order to do this, you need to change blademaster tome also, because right now it's what is keeping bards a reasonable class in high end content.
 
Also the biggest mistake made was probably standardizing the loot rate of all the items. How is it possible we've (Resurgum) seen ~7 robes in the past year but we haven't seen an ear since November?
 
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