CH nerf?

Bella

Dalayan Beginner
Let me first explain what I see and how it will affect things. Please point out what I may have wrong or misunderstand. I dont mean this to be a rant, nor am I angry, there are solutions to every nerf. I am just confussed as to how this helps the cleric issue.

The CH as patched ... well ok CH is not changed... how often players can be CHed has changed, to 2 seconds between (/pause 20).

Purpose:
1) balance out overpowerd CH a bit
2)free up clerics from being in rotations (put them on padding?) fewer clerics needed, more druid/shaman, bst/rng/pal, nec/brd needed
If I missed one my apologies (add bind wounds?), add runes and other mitigation...

Observation: this change only affects high end raids where you might want to put clerics on a pause 10 or 15 or 19 between CH's.

If cleric_bot_01 is a little fast on the fastest chain (pause 20), that CH misses = wipe (usually). btw will this eat the mana cost for that cast?
Solution: add padders

If padders get agro early (dont argue your bs, they do and they die) padding gets thin mt dies = wipe.
Solution: add more padders

IE:
Change padders to clerics (better more mana efficient healing not using CH) - this adds the need for more clerics, defeating the purpose of adding the 2 second minimum druation between CH's, designed to reduce number of needed clerics.

Am I missing something here? are there other healers left available to heal other melee's taking AE's? or off-tanking adds

And if its a fight that will require padding and CH chain is maxed, how will server lag add its problems. We have all seen chains where it looks like the pauses dont match from cleric to cleric, this is caused by server lag or user lag, and in big raids your gonna have lag.

I just dont see how making it harder to heal on mobs quading 1500+ dmg add flurry or 2k ae nuke etc. balances the power of CH. The mob probably already has 100,000 hp (how many players does it take to add up to 100,000 hp) mad dps from mob who may have specials and AE's that players dont get... how are we unbalanced? mobs even can get CH of thier own.

If a mob (1) has two mob clerics(2,3) casting CH at the same time and one hits 1 second after the other... will it take on mob(1)?

_______

~Bella Lugosi (61 enchanter) ... yes I am not a cleric whining about my nerf ;)
 
It doesn't really balance the power of CHeal itself, as such. One of the main reasons I see (and I personally agree with it) is to stop cleric-zerging making-or-breaking high end raids. It also gets rid of a scenario where Some_Tank_01 can tank any mob in the game, provided he has 20 clerics at his back running a /pause 5 chain.

There will be some inherent problems, such as the ones you mentioned (ie, a cleric casting a fractino of a second too early and the heal not landing resulting in wipes), but those can be worked around. As for pad healers, their role will be eleveated a little bit, but there'll always be a CHeal chain, simply because it's the most efficient way to heal a tank with over 7000 hit points.

Being limited to a two second chain also means that the mobs themselves can be balanced around that, ie. mobs don't have to be made so that they're still provide a challenge to a raid with a one second chain, which completely cuts any guild's chances if they don't have ten or more clerics there.

I haven't seen first hand how these changes have affected raiding, so I don't really have a proper opinion yet, but I do agree with the motives behind it. The only way, however, to find out if the bad out-weighs the good is to put it into practice.
 
We had khalid tank grandlibrarian fine b4 chain slipped with a 2 sec pause. My major problem atm is that spell refresh will limit some padding, and that mob dps will need to be looked into for mobs such as DBLASH and king, over all this patch will require weeks of testing and tweeking as is.
 
Melwin said:
We wiped to Grand Librarian because a 2 second chain was insufficient.
maddctr said:
We had khalid tank grandlibrarian fine b4 chain slipped with a 2 sec pause.

I think our chain was fast enough, CH just didn't go through every time. Maybe we should have used /pause 21 instead of 20.
 
I think our chain was fast enough, CH just didn't go through every time. Maybe we should have used /pause 21 instead of 20.

That's not going to make much of a difference, most humans find it hard to judge a CHeal down to the microsecond. :p

Changing the limit to 1.6 or 1.7 seconds on the client target recast might make a bit of a difference, though. Allowing a little margin of error on the cast, though it's not really exploitable except by seriously hard-core clerics with amazing connections and an impeccible sense of timing.
 
isnt it so that with a pause 20 and delay between lines and reaction time of the user the pause 20 is actually more like a pause 24? wich is there by a long enough pause
 
If it was codeable, Id make it so that if you CH under 2seconds, the CH hits for accordingly lower amounts. That way if you do a /pause 10 CH chain, the CHs only hit for 3000 max or something similar, but /pause 20 will still hit for max.

Is that codeable? I dunno.
 
"Any tank on the server" can be kept alive while tanking "any mob on the server" if there are enough clerics zerging for him, CH or no CH. Fights like muskl encourage the non use of CH's because he requires more situational healing.

Its a lot easier to zerg 20 healers than it is to raid for 12 months to get the right tank gear to kill somehting with only 4 clerics and a handful of padders.


There will still be overhealing no matter what.
 
Let me rephrase. Guilds will learn where to place their characters, use the proper strategy, then they will over heal to take care of the numbers game. Has been this way since day 1 of EQ.
 
^^^ of course that only applies to mobs that are killable, unlike Patrol Master Dblash, which hits too hard and too fast to even heal with 1.3 second spells..
 
Duma: With a 20 cleric chain, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl.

With a 5 cleric chain and 15 cleric spammers, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl for maybe 25% until their mana ran out.
 
But what would the delay be for the 20 clerics? 10? 05? A mob that dished out that much dps would be nearly impossible to get into the rotation to begin with, unless you timed it right so your tank engaged 8 seconds into the first CH channel. Then you are almost 100% certified to get half your clerics dead from unestablished aggro on the MT. Or does tarhyl just simply have a ton more hp than anythitng else and not just a stronger attack?


Unless we were talking pop abilities and a good 2000-4000more hp than anyone on the server has at the moment.


I can't really really read your mind or know how to reply to a situtation no one on the server has been in yet. I can only attempt use relative and deductive logic from the experiences I have had.
 
Duma said:
But what would the delay be for the 20 clerics? 10? 05? A mob that dished out that much dps would be nearly impossible to get into the rotation to begin with, unless you timed it right so your tank engaged 8 seconds into the first CH channel. Then you are almost 100% certified to get half your clerics dead from unestablished aggro on the MT. Or does tarhyl just simply have a ton more hp than anythitng else and not just a stronger attack?


Unless we were talking pop abilities and a good 2000-4000more hp than anyone on the server has at the moment.


I can't really really read your mind or know how to reply to a situtation no one on the server has been in yet. I can only attempt use relative and deductive logic from the experiences I have had.

Yes, you start chain in the middle of the pull, and there is ways to make the MT have more aggro at start than the CH will gain on the cleric
 
fjo the only way I can think to save this first cleric and potentially others from an 8 sec into ch engage is to target FD him.
 
Duma said:
But what would the delay be for the 20 clerics? 10? 05? A mob that dished out that much dps would be nearly impossible to get into the rotation to begin with, unless you timed it right so your tank engaged 8 seconds into the first CH channel. Then you are almost 100% certified to get half your clerics dead from unestablished aggro on the MT. Or does tarhyl just simply have a ton more hp than anythitng else and not just a stronger attack?


Unless we were talking pop abilities and a good 2000-4000more hp than anyone on the server has at the moment.


I can't really really read your mind or know how to reply to a situtation no one on the server has been in yet. I can only attempt use relative and deductive logic from the experiences I have had.

Huh? What are you talking about? You're not even on topic anymore. First you say it'd be possible despite the nerf with enough clerics, now you say it wouldn't even be possible without the nerf.

It seems like you're just desperate to dig up reasons to revoke it.
 
CoH doesnt heal agro

You could AA regen tank just before pull and use the last 10 clerics of chain to pad heal till first CH would hit so agro on first cleric wouldnt be a problem
 
.... sheesh I'm long winded :eek: ....

As far as I know CoH does clear agro, in fact one of the pullers fell into ntov pit got agro, was cohed out. Unless I was mistaken and he wasnt agro after he fell in. I know you are a 64 mage and should know so I'm probably wrong.

Wiz wrote: "With a 20 cleric chain, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl.
With a 5 cleric chain and 15 cleric spammers, Coltaine could tank Tarhyl for maybe 25% until their mana ran out."


So in effect yes with enough clerics (and now padders) any 7k+ ish tank can still tank any mob. If mana is too low, just add more clerics to the chain. If fights get too long add more rogues or wizards to add DPS. Perhaps just add necros to pump mana to clerics, maybe have an equal number of necros as clerics and assign each to his own.

So guilds still need to recruit 20%ish clerics that can be put into CH rotations. I know 20 is an exageration I'm just quoting some /ooc. However have you ever seen a guild anywhere ever say that had too many clerics or turn off recruitment of clerics?

Are we forgetting that many people get tired of playing main clerics... is this not why the majority of clerics are currently bots? Stuck in a CH rotation as a main for most every mob on every raid is not fun. You say "welcome to the life of a cleric". Well I have already started to PL a cleric bot so that Kagera might be able to do something else in raids (as another class) and actually have fun and enjoy it more.

She played a shaman most often opposite my monk before WR and got sick of it - malo, slow, heal (ad infinatum), and every few mintutes respeed/rebuff... and hell thats more variety then clerics ever get. Seldom does a cleric get to fight except when soloing low blues at high risk.

Perhaps CH is so overpowering that it should be removed all together and we should just collect 50+ spam healers for raid mobs? Maybe if we are lucky we can have 100ish people on raids and it not be full of lag/ld/zone crashes. Or better yet make zerging an actual tactic and creat the "zerg rez/rebuff group" (epic cleric to rez/cleric to aego/necro to pump mana to aego cleric/enchanter to speed/druid to resist buff/shaman for more hp buffs)
... for those that dont understand zerging, it works like this: keep throwing people at the mob till it dies, it doesnt matter how many deaths the players incure there will be many rezzes during and after fight ...

Zerging is not a valid tactic, because it is not a tactic at all... a tactic is figuring out how to kill a mob that wipes raids of 80+ peope with only 13 characters (lord inquisitor seru) and yes I was a monk/cleric(bot on rotation) in that fight, and kag was RGC(remove greater curse) shaman for that fight. -- additionally our first attempt at that fight was with 28 people without seru bane weapons (proc and spell dmg only), the fight took well over an hour got lord down to 23% before we wiped because someone lagged too far on a run into fight and agroed a nearby spawn) for info on this mob, search allakhazam (sp?)

I guess my point in one sentence is - why try to fix what really aint broke.
Complete heal is already not 'complete' as it once was. Perhaps "really long cast time really large heal" is a better name.

Or maybe just be content doing blues and the occasional even in a group for mediocre loot.

_______________
~Bella (61 enchanter - less than 10aa's left till DC)
 
CH questions

I as a cleric have some questions I hope Wizzy will answer. (or someone in the know)

1) If you have a time limit on Complete Heal and 2 seconds max is the duration period until the tank can receive another CH, what happens if the tank gets any lag? The cleric lags - they all die. If lag is an issue on the tank would it register it hit at the appropriate time?

2) If it does *not* register at the correct second, then everyone else's button will be wrong, potentially killing the warrior and guild. I know you tested this; did you test it with a huge amount of people in the same zone?

3) I can understand you not wanting to have a "cleric zerg" fight, but is that even a real concern? If it is, how come people haven't beaten everything on the server with ease?

4) I see only where it will encourage twice as many clerics, (1 chain heal on main tank, 1 on secondary - and if Main dies then clerics are added to pad healing on tank number 2. (Now Main tank) Cleric will not be able to just complete heal new main tank from switchover because everyone's buttons would be off. I understand that the MoBS can be adjusted for this CH situation so they do not have 100,000,000 hit points or hit for upper 1000's. The question I have is "Are the MoBs currently adjusted'?

5) I do not think it is good tactics putting all shamans, druids and healers on cleric duty. Sure they heal, but on really long raids, every group was assigned a shaman or druid if possible and part of their job is keep their group alive. Now the group will not get pad heals. Shamans and Druids won’t be able to DoT stuff because their mana will run out. I can Ethereal Light apx 12 times before I go oom, and 1600 hit points isn’t a lot. That is at 4.8 seconds per cast. Everyone that pad heals will need a lot of mana - remember CH is the most efficient heal in the game. Pad healing is cast at the same time as other pad heals, thus everyone runs out apx at the same time. Does anyone even have enough mana to keep up with pad heals in a long fight?

6) I would like a test raid, with everyone (Wizzy) to kill a mob, and I think the mob we should try is the one in Umbrel Plains. That mob *should* be easy if done right. Can we test it out there?
 
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