Channeling

Discussion in 'Balancing Discussion' started by Tarutao, Sep 18, 2013.

  1. Tarutao

    Tarutao Administrator

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    This will probably be a short-lived thread, but since there's actual discussion about the Channeling skill going on, this seems like a good place to move it. The discussion was inspired by a post by cian2 (Eisley) in the Tiers 9-11 thread. In order to keep that thread on topic, I quote here the posts and parts of posts I'm removing from that thread, and this should sufficiently serve as a start for this thread.
     
  2. Tarutao

    Tarutao Administrator

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    Behold, a million quoted posts.

     
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  3. Tevinter

    Tevinter Dalayan Master

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    make channeling a focus effect similar to Control Enhancement, 3 or 4 can be the highest rank. This prevents items with channeling from being best in slot forever, and prevents stacking of the stat.
     
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  4. cian2

    cian2 Dalayan Master

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    this is a pretty good idea, but make sure to put it on t13 items this time :p t13 still has no bane items
     
  5. Vitali

    Vitali Dalayan Master

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    I really like this as well. Instead of ruining the mod completely, just capping it (essentially) would be pretty stellar.
     
  6. sheer1

    sheer1 Dalayan Elder

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    yea i mean thats not a bad idea, but if we convert channeling effect into a focus effect, we are adding a brand new extremely powerful focus into the game just because we like it.

    Additionally it still leaves a question out there about what to do with the channeling skill mod.

    This is assuming the devs wouldnt be able to make the normal channeling skill not stack, and function similar to a focus effect so your piece of gear with the highest +channeling is all the matters. im not sure how hard that is, but im guessing it might be more work than its worth. but yea i dont know, if thats feasible it would probably be the best compromise to limit the huge power of all items with +channeling.

    and really if anything like this comes into reality (focus effect or reworking how +channeling stacks), id lean toward most items just being 1 anyway, maybe a few choice pieces having 2. Crit would still be hugely important, and at later tiers a single item with 2 or 3 crit is far and away the biggest dps/heal boost available on a single item.
     
  7. Vitali

    Vitali Dalayan Master

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    I personally like that there is something to manage in addition to the boring "must have mods" that requires a little sacrifice for something really nice. Healing 8 is pretty much required at a certain point, Casting Speed7+, etc... But because Channeling comes on obscure pieces randomly, and at various tiers, some require dropping stats just for the +channeling.

    I am a fan of the "lose a little, but get something really good in return" mentality. I really really liked the last version of 4.3 sword, sacrificing some health on a caster which is normally seen as taboo to up the damage output was a fantastic idea. I think the nerf went pretty far past bearable, but still. Channeling for a lack of stats seems like a good trade.

    Alternatively, leave items as is and only change what channeling does is an idea. Not good really, because as I said, I think channeling is fine as is. Just my opinion. I would suggest something to do with take dmg and being able to cast under attack more consistently, but stun resist covers it. Or fizzle rate on healers (since we dont get super cool AAs to do it) but then it doesn't help INT casters at all.
     
  8. Bridger

    Bridger Dalayan Beginner

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    My personal preference would be to combine Alteration Channeling Conjuration Evocation into a single
    mod that gave an increase to both spell damage (of all types) and heals of say 0.1% per level.

    This would both solve the problem of channeling being too "chunky" and also be much much much more balanced between the classes.
     
  9. Nwaij

    Nwaij Game Master Staff Member

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    /playerhat on
    Please explain to me how this would be more balanced. Seems to be only more boring. The way it is, different classes value different skillmods different, so where healer types are all over alteration mods, casters (except maybe mages) don't really care for them.

    Also I hope that you are aware that most skill mods are better then what you suggest, individually, so on top of asking to gimp things down, you are asking for a nerf here.

    Site note: you forgott to include abjuration and divination.
     
  10. Latten

    Latten Dalayan Elder

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    Your personal reference is wrong. Also with all thoose mods you can choose invidual how to make your char in gear and balance it (same thing as vitali said).

    Prolly the best balance would be for channeling to cap it on 5? and then start putting on +1 channeling on more gear. So you dont end up with OMG THIS tier 9 LOOT IS IRREPLACEABLE and you can also design your tier 12-15 whatever gear better.
     
  11. nikosk

    nikosk Dalayan Elder

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    something that adds a small "chance".. and we're saying it's overpowered? Jeez, this game nerfs way too much unnecessarily. There will be items that are worth using, no matter where you look.
     
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  12. Bridger

    Bridger Dalayan Beginner

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    Sorry I thought that was obvious.
    Anything that gave a 1% improvement to (caster) Class A would give a 1% improvement to (caster) class B.

    Currently 1 channeling would give a 1% improvement to a Wizard (or is it more?) whereas it would be worth less than a quarter percent to a Mage without relevant Class tomes done.

    No I am not.
    Anything that currently had 1 channeling *COULD* be replaced by 10 of the new mod
    Anything that had 1 evocation *COULD* be replaced by 2 of the new mod
    etc etc

    There is no reason that it has to result in a nerf - though it could be used to address the problem that a full 1% on an item is too much (but something is appropriate)
     
  13. Nwaij

    Nwaij Game Master Staff Member

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    /player hat still on.

    Okay, I'll go with your argument: Currently mages benefit from conjuration mods making their pets beefier and hitting harder, and alteration mods for making their pet heals better. Since wizards neither have a pet nor pet heals, mages should not benefit from conjuration mods nor alteration mods either. Balanced in your understanding of balance, right?

    Even if that happened, there is a cap of +25 skillmod for every and all skills. So if you united all of them under a new name (wich is impossible anyways btw), reducing their individual effects from 0.2% to 0.1% is essentially a nerf of 50% to all of them.
     
  14. Bridger

    Bridger Dalayan Beginner

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    NO - OBVIOUSLY not right
    To obtain an overall increase of 1% to a mage dps you would need to increase the spell casting dps AND the pet dps (including swarm pets etc) by 1%.
    (example Casting dps 700 Pet dps 300 Total 1000
    Increase by 1% to give casting 707 + Pet 303 giving a total of 1010
    and lo and behold 1010 is 1% greater than 1000)

    Ok - make the new mod 0.2% per level.

    For a mage to obtain the an equivalent to a wizard getting 5 evocation, the mage would need to obtain 5 evocation AND 5 Conjuration AND 5 alteration.
    Even then I suspect swarm pets are not upgraded (anyone confirm?)

    How is this balanced?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  15. Nwaij

    Nwaij Game Master Staff Member

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    /player hat of protection against zoroth on
    How does alteration affect a mages DPS (or anyone elses DPS for that matter), like at all? Also let me tell you one big secret to this server: NOT ALL CLASSES ARE DESIGNED THE SAME. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

    There, I said it. Let me say it again for good measure, in hope it sticks:

    NOT ALL CLASSES ARE DESIGNED THE SAME. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.


    That means of course that different things - in this case, skillmods, affect them in different ways. You shouldn't see skillmods as something you are entitled to - you are not! - and instead consider them as a bonus you find here and there on gear. Instead of complaining that you need oh so many more skillmods then random other class, be happy that there are so many more skillmods that actually do something for you!

    Side note: Since you seem so worried about skillmods, how come you do not have a single +alteration aug from refuge?
     
  16. Marza

    Marza *Unfortunately a Developer*

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    Honestly channeling was never meant to increase crit by a whole percentage. I know I mentioned this to a few people but the original intention was .5%. Still, it never got coded to be anything but 1% so that is kind of irrelevant, and even if it was .5% I don't believe that would fix the issue at hand so the point is moot.

    One of the biggest problems with channeling is that it is a new stat that was created at the current "end game", which by that point in time many stats are well beyond maxed or have become increasingly meaningless (mana for healers). Imagine though if crit chance for melee never existed and instead of spell crit channeling increased melee crit chance (makes a ton of sense I know). It would face the same exact problem, any item with it would be far and away superior to all items that did not have it. Honeslty thinking on it, double attack and DW are very similar to the situation I have explained, except that channeling is more potent and less available.

    Basically, items at end game have too many stats that are capped so if there is something that isnt capped it will always make it the best choice. At least if it has an impact on player power.

    If channeling was introduced at the beginning of the raiding scene and capped at 10% (basically melee crit chance). The problems of the stat being such a big deal like it is right now would be largely diminished I believe. I say this because players would be increasing their channeling at the same time they are increasing their flowing thought, spellward, cha, (meaningful) mana, etc. In some ways this would help delay players capping all of these said stats since instead of just grabbing all of the FT items they could get they might pick up an item that had no FT but channeling.

    But! As pretty much anyone would guess just like all the other stats I listed it too would eventually get capped and players would just be expected to have the extra 10% chance to crit with spells. Rebalancing might need to happen for already created content and it seems kind of like a questionable endeavor.

    I guess the whole point of this post is that introducing stats to the game that increase player power, even if small, is going to have a large impact on itemization and likely on game difficulty. Even if channeling was changed to 1% more crit damage this would not really change how desirable the stat is at end game because it is still a number increase to the players power.

    If I remember correctly, and I hope I am not speaking out of turn, some of the ideas for channeling from the devs were things like: Increasing the grace radius players can move before spell can be interrupted, preventing stuns and forced interrupts from interrupting the players (sort of like mind shield for casting), these sort of things that don't really have a #increase for the player, and would not cause nearly as many problems as the current channeling has.

    Having said all this hopefully a cool, implementable idea can be formed. =]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  17. Lleoc

    Lleoc Dalayan Master

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    this is what stood out to me and i'd very much rather see MORE channeling available on gear but put a cap of like 5% so it's essentially a crit stat throughout the tiers for casters as well as a minor boost for melees dps (they are FAR behind the best caster vs best melee anyway so who cares)
     
  18. bloog

    bloog Dalayan Adventurer

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    I really like having some way of increasing the chance to crit spells. However channeling in the current form is really overpowered and makes it the best stat other then healing or damage increment. Why not have it so there is a focus where each rank increases your chance to crit on spells by 1% and just make overcap channeling decrease the chance getting hit will interrupt your spell and decrease the chance your spells will fizzle.

    If spell crit was a focus it would give the devs more control over which tiers a player would have a certain level of spell crit and allow it to be more balanced. If channeling makes it harder for a players spells to be interrupted and decreased the chance they fizzle, it would sort of fit with how increasing your channelling skill works as you go up levels.
     
  19. Moraelintz

    Moraelintz Dalayan Elder

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    This is the best idea so far.
     
  20. Slaariel

    Slaariel *The Only Real Life Girl Dev* Staff Member

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    I'm making Channeling do what it was meant to do only better. Having it be +crit was a mistake by the dev team and I am sorry for the trauma it has caused.

    Overcap Channeling will now grant a chance to cast through stuns barring irresistible stuns and not including things like mez and charm, of course. This is the intent of the skill as written, as currently implemented, and now as expanded upon by Shards of Dalaya.

    Please post a list of items that are now ruined from this change. (High tier items balanced around their Channeling stat are VERY RARE but I know they exist so let's get them all done at once.)
     

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