Damage over Time idea.
- Thread starter Snake
- Start date
Sure, Lets take Ultimate Blast then.
[Wed Oct 25 17:55:18 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14260)
[Wed Oct 25 17:56:02 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14348)
[Wed Oct 25 17:56:06 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14348)
[Wed Oct 25 17:56:32 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14348)
[Thu Oct 26 03:27:04 2017] Relvos unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (20948)
[Thu Oct 26 03:27:47 2017] Relvos unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (18708)
[Thu Oct 26 03:27:54 2017] Relvos unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (19640)
I have tons of them. They don't seem super rare.
Pretty sure Arb is using Flash Flame, so thats 400 base mana right?
14348/400 = 35,87 damage pr mana.
Relvos probably using Moon Comet.
19640/525 = 37.4 damage pr mana.
I'm curious, just how is it dot's are by far the most mana efficient way of damage in the game?
These numbers are almost twice as mana effecient than a Marlow getting to do all its damage over 48 seconds
Marlow ticks for just under 1k, but lets just say 1k for arguments sake. Zake has around 25% crit chance to dots, but lets just say 30% to set it high, thats 22.6 damage per mana.
If Marlow ticks for 24 seconds, ~4 times as mana effecient.
12 seconds, 8 times.
6 seconds, 16 times more mana efficient....
You highly overrate how good dots are, and as you just saw some Necro say, he rarely even use them in exp groups.
Go check out your chart vs parsings of exp groups, see how often a dot class should even dot at all (not counting bards, since their dots costs 0 mana).
Your flowchart is actually pretty good, I know you try to show that whom ever is casting dots in shorter fights are stupid, but really your showing that dots are stupid in shorter fights.
Again to clarify how this idea would effects dots, it's only manawise, and only when the dot doesn't go full time.
So dots won't do more damage what so ever. The caster will just be less taxed on mana, when the target dies before the dot.
[Wed Oct 25 17:55:18 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14260)
[Wed Oct 25 17:56:02 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14348)
[Wed Oct 25 17:56:06 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14348)
[Wed Oct 25 17:56:32 2017] Arbalest unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (14348)
[Thu Oct 26 03:27:04 2017] Relvos unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (20948)
[Thu Oct 26 03:27:47 2017] Relvos unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (18708)
[Thu Oct 26 03:27:54 2017] Relvos unleashes an ULTIMATE BLAST! (19640)
I have tons of them. They don't seem super rare.
Pretty sure Arb is using Flash Flame, so thats 400 base mana right?
14348/400 = 35,87 damage pr mana.
Relvos probably using Moon Comet.
19640/525 = 37.4 damage pr mana.
I'm curious, just how is it dot's are by far the most mana efficient way of damage in the game?
These numbers are almost twice as mana effecient than a Marlow getting to do all its damage over 48 seconds
Marlow ticks for just under 1k, but lets just say 1k for arguments sake. Zake has around 25% crit chance to dots, but lets just say 30% to set it high, thats 22.6 damage per mana.
If Marlow ticks for 24 seconds, ~4 times as mana effecient.
12 seconds, 8 times.
6 seconds, 16 times more mana efficient....
You highly overrate how good dots are, and as you just saw some Necro say, he rarely even use them in exp groups.
Go check out your chart vs parsings of exp groups, see how often a dot class should even dot at all (not counting bards, since their dots costs 0 mana).
Your flowchart is actually pretty good, I know you try to show that whom ever is casting dots in shorter fights are stupid, but really your showing that dots are stupid in shorter fights.
Again to clarify how this idea would effects dots, it's only manawise, and only when the dot doesn't go full time.
So dots won't do more damage what so ever. The caster will just be less taxed on mana, when the target dies before the dot.
Last edited:
Im still curious if any other necros/shamans/bsts dot users w/e find this a good idea? cause im not seeing any support. just another thread where Snake asks for opinions and if they dont agree, he trys to fight with "His" logic and no one else can make much sense of it, and any time hes proven wrong, he goes full trump.
Jmayzak
Dalayan Elder
The other idea is to make DOTs free, and each tick has a Mana reduction recourse. But mana conservation would not work.
You seemed to do OK last night in the exp group. Multiple pull required you to DoT everything, and you pulled aggro on some smaller things, but I healed you.
I think once you get your Strands of Life 4, you mana might not be an issue in XP groups, allowing you to cast DoTs that dont tick all the way (netting more killshots)[Netting more mana]
You seemed to do OK last night in the exp group. Multiple pull required you to DoT everything, and you pulled aggro on some smaller things, but I healed you.
I think once you get your Strands of Life 4, you mana might not be an issue in XP groups, allowing you to cast DoTs that dont tick all the way (netting more killshots)[Netting more mana]
Rohk clear.
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 26s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 25s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 22s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 19s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 92s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 45s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 33s
A lava spirit
---Fight Length: 17s
So what I did on all, was R2, in to Arhaic, in to lifetaps.
R2 takes 4.6 seconds to cast, then 2.5 seconds to be able to cast again...
Then Archaic takes 3.2.
So anything shorter than 20 seconds im only 50% mana efficient on both R2 and Archaic...
Only fights lasting 40 seconds+ am I actually mana efficient, and thats just doing 2 dots.
Yep I was like 60m when we got to the top (even using Lich on the way), rest of the group was like 80m.
Last edited:
Where is the Rohk parse?
I really don't think you are getting what necros are supposed to provide in groups.. And that's killshots to keep everyone FM, not super high sustained dps. Also I'm pretty sure necros can solo better than most classes in the game using some of their other spells (not dots) that no other class has access too. I also see no mention of dot crits but a lot of mentions of ultimate/primal blast.
If you kill shot all those lava spirits instead of trying to do crazy dps, group probably would have been almost FM. I love bringing necros to emberflow to not have to med. although I will say when fighting things under tier, it's much less required (which is what you are doing) so maybe fighting some harder monsters might help you. (Back end OG for example)
Tldr
I don't think you are fully grasping necros purpose in this game.
I really don't think you are getting what necros are supposed to provide in groups.. And that's killshots to keep everyone FM, not super high sustained dps. Also I'm pretty sure necros can solo better than most classes in the game using some of their other spells (not dots) that no other class has access too. I also see no mention of dot crits but a lot of mentions of ultimate/primal blast.
If you kill shot all those lava spirits instead of trying to do crazy dps, group probably would have been almost FM. I love bringing necros to emberflow to not have to med. although I will say when fighting things under tier, it's much less required (which is what you are doing) so maybe fighting some harder monsters might help you. (Back end OG for example)
Tldr
I don't think you are fully grasping necros purpose in this game.
So your believe is, that the Devs made the necro to not do high sustained dps in exp groups, but rather to get kill shots, to get mana for the group? Thats their role in this very essential part of the game?
I guess you base that logic on the PBAoE spell + 1 class tome line.
Well as DoT's works right now, mana wise, you are right. Thats basicly what necro's can try to do in exp groups.
I just don't think that this was the intention all along. I think that when the DoT system was made originally, the dps from the other class's wasnt so high, and so instant, that monsters usually lived a good 1 minut atleast.
This dot problem is a bi product of this high burst dps performance of so many other class's.
That is why im suggesting this change to DoTs (not to just necro's, to dots in general).
You mention I dont talk about crits, well I did "... Zake has around 25% crit chance to dots, but lets just say 30% to set it high...".
Actually its something I have been meaning to look in to too, cause it seems like Wizards gets much higher crit % on their nukes, than Necro's do on their dots.
I havent run parses yet, but I will eventually. (Necro's are masters of dots, wizards masters of nukes, seems fair they should get around the same crit % right?)
But this is for an other topic, this one is not about necro's as such; its about Dots mana cost, when they don't deliver all their damage.
Last edited:
Like I said, fight harder monsters, solo, or try different style groups. You are right mobs used to last a lot longer, but now the groups you are joining are way over tier for the content. I understand you are trying to talk about getting mana back for not fully sustained dots, but I don't think killing stuff too fast has ever really been an issue in this game. And in these scenarios, yes getting killshots for your tome is the best thing you can do for your group. Perhaps even FD pulling in certain situations might be helpful, but not likely since the groups you have mentioned thus far could just take on a massive pile of monsters anyway.
Wanna know why necros dont do wizard dps, and have wizard dps-like shit? We can FD (self AND OTHERS, AND WE JUST HAD A RULING ALLOWING PEOPLE TO GO SKIP MOBS THAT DONT SEE FD WITH THAT SPELL), mez, debuff (in more than 1 variety, not including what dots do to npcs after enough are on them https://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Damage_over_time 2nd paragraph), snare, root, charm (have you charmed an undead iksar for Forest Gloom? Those guys rule), self-evac, summon a decent pet (he isnt a bstlord or mage pet, but hes gonna live longer than a druid/wizard pet), tap mana for the group (the spell and the tome), heal (dont tell me this isnt good), tap stats from npcs for the group, levitate a raid with a nice poison resist buff, SOULBOND, back to the pet other classes dont have minion skills for an AA, which means we can put our pet in stances, slow undead mobs for as much as a beastlord slow (at lvl 39 no less, take note, adept hunters...), and oh yeah, our mana regen is ridiculous at almost 100 ft or something.
Wizards can port, evac, cast a proc spell, root, snare, and dont have soulbond.
Im sorry that this isnt a dot-based post, but god fucking damn it if you do not see why we dont do as much dps as a wizard then you are playing the wrong class. P.s. ive saved my wizard a few times, with fd, necro heal, and ive said fuck it when healing my group 2boxing and saved Nomos over Ywom, because that guy is gonna do dps. Changing how mana on dots work is going to do nothing, bud. Trust me. We bring a lot to the table, and sorry to say it, but we are dps/ u t i l i t y. I say all this because I am saving you time and effort on your posts. If there is one thing id like to see necros changed, its Insidious elements, and that is to at least see some sort of difference in our resist adjust, but beggars cant be choosers, because we do 1k-1300 dps with all our utility, so i cant complain.
So before you go off on me about this, think about the dev's mindset right now. Id be surprised if i am wrong but they are gonna go, "ummm necros are fine right now, and we got other shit to do #nerffourthree"
Wizards can port, evac, cast a proc spell, root, snare, and dont have soulbond.
Im sorry that this isnt a dot-based post, but god fucking damn it if you do not see why we dont do as much dps as a wizard then you are playing the wrong class. P.s. ive saved my wizard a few times, with fd, necro heal, and ive said fuck it when healing my group 2boxing and saved Nomos over Ywom, because that guy is gonna do dps. Changing how mana on dots work is going to do nothing, bud. Trust me. We bring a lot to the table, and sorry to say it, but we are dps/ u t i l i t y. I say all this because I am saving you time and effort on your posts. If there is one thing id like to see necros changed, its Insidious elements, and that is to at least see some sort of difference in our resist adjust, but beggars cant be choosers, because we do 1k-1300 dps with all our utility, so i cant complain.
So before you go off on me about this, think about the dev's mindset right now. Id be surprised if i am wrong but they are gonna go, "ummm necros are fine right now, and we got other shit to do #nerffourthree"
Faylahs
Dalayan Elder
As someone who was playing necro (main switched back to a Rogue cause hes my original baby) The only things i wish to be done to necros (with adjustments if needed) are:
- Fix Leeching Servant class tome to not suck as much (instant mimic or such since most necros dont spam direct lifetaps often so not OP imo).
- Slightly increase relic/runic pet base hp (like 15-30%) and increase runic pet mana regen rate so it isnt useless after a few pulls.
- Slightly increase base damage of Caress (would help shamans a bit too) and skitterpox to make them a bit better but nothing too strong like 50 to 100 extra damage added to base tops.
- Improve damage/cast time of direct nukes like Cryotoxin and Torbas' Venom blast but again not too fast or too much extra. Enough to make them more killshot sniping friendly but not super fast like wizard quick nukes or such.
Aside from that i dont feel Necros need too much help. Just some small nudges to improve their quality and raid dps by like 100 so they dont feel mega level gimp all the time. But im far from the perfect player or analyst of numbers i could be completely off base for all i know.
- Fix Leeching Servant class tome to not suck as much (instant mimic or such since most necros dont spam direct lifetaps often so not OP imo).
- Slightly increase relic/runic pet base hp (like 15-30%) and increase runic pet mana regen rate so it isnt useless after a few pulls.
- Slightly increase base damage of Caress (would help shamans a bit too) and skitterpox to make them a bit better but nothing too strong like 50 to 100 extra damage added to base tops.
- Improve damage/cast time of direct nukes like Cryotoxin and Torbas' Venom blast but again not too fast or too much extra. Enough to make them more killshot sniping friendly but not super fast like wizard quick nukes or such.
Aside from that i dont feel Necros need too much help. Just some small nudges to improve their quality and raid dps by like 100 so they dont feel mega level gimp all the time. But im far from the perfect player or analyst of numbers i could be completely off base for all i know.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Save yourself the time alongside boarding another wrong train of thought. Wizards DO have a higher crit chance then necros, and rightly so. Wanna know why? Because wizards are built around crits. Yes, If one plays a wizard, one is basically going to the casino, spinning the wheel in hopes to get lucky. Sounds weird, huh? So let's revisite the mana efficiency list I posted earlier in this thread. What I didn't tell back then was that this is with only one target, so hardly ideal DPS conditions for mages. So under ideal conditions, MAG has a DPM of ~7-8 (about double what they have on single target due to how rains work), NEC is somewhere in the 7-8 ballpark range as well (mind you, we are talking ideal conditions, so don't even try to argue that mobs die early here!) while WIZ has a whooping 4.something. So yes, WIZ are balanced around higher crit chance, it is there to get them even somewhat competitive on DPM to other casters, and no, NEC have no business at all being at the same level of spell crits WIZ are at.
demither wtf are you talking about? I'm not asking for more damage, and I'm not asking for a specific necro change. I think you reply'ed to a wrong thread man.
Also your claim of being a utility class is a joke, Wizards offer more utility with evac ports and RBoW, than necro does. Mages offer way more utility just with their rods...
Obv Beastlords, Druids, Shaman and Enchanters (even bards) are the real utility class'. How often do you load Necro in athica for their utility? How often do you say "no we can't do this with out necro buffs, debuff, ports, pulls and/or mezzing (ect.)"? Basicly never.
But again, this is a thread about dots costing way to much mana, in shorter fights.
I saw someone ask for Rohk parse, in this thread... Rohk parse with or with out the implementation of this idea would stay 100% the same. It is as if far most of these reply's don't understand the nature of this idea.
Look I even out lined how to code it, go read that, then you will see that there will be 0 dps gained from any dots.
And Nwaij your post is just hillarious, "Wizards are build around crits, ofcourse they should crit more than other class'!". Oh okey, now I see why Wizards should always crit more than other class', they benefit a lot more from them so they need more obv!
Anyway thats an other topic.
Faylahs I agree with those changes completely, but this is #1 not about necro, and #2 not about more dps, survivability of pet ect.
Again to all reading this idea. It's about DoT's in general, and its about DoT's costing 20% mana of its cost when cast, and then the remaining 80% will be deducted as the dot is ticking away.
(The dot will actually cost 100% normal right when cast, to not mess with bracer procs and in general having the mana to cast the spell, but 80% of the mana spent will be returned instantly).
Also your claim of being a utility class is a joke, Wizards offer more utility with evac ports and RBoW, than necro does. Mages offer way more utility just with their rods...
Obv Beastlords, Druids, Shaman and Enchanters (even bards) are the real utility class'. How often do you load Necro in athica for their utility? How often do you say "no we can't do this with out necro buffs, debuff, ports, pulls and/or mezzing (ect.)"? Basicly never.
But again, this is a thread about dots costing way to much mana, in shorter fights.
I saw someone ask for Rohk parse, in this thread... Rohk parse with or with out the implementation of this idea would stay 100% the same. It is as if far most of these reply's don't understand the nature of this idea.
Look I even out lined how to code it, go read that, then you will see that there will be 0 dps gained from any dots.
And Nwaij your post is just hillarious, "Wizards are build around crits, ofcourse they should crit more than other class'!". Oh okey, now I see why Wizards should always crit more than other class', they benefit a lot more from them so they need more obv!
Anyway thats an other topic.
Faylahs I agree with those changes completely, but this is #1 not about necro, and #2 not about more dps, survivability of pet ect.
Again to all reading this idea. It's about DoT's in general, and its about DoT's costing 20% mana of its cost when cast, and then the remaining 80% will be deducted as the dot is ticking away.
(The dot will actually cost 100% normal right when cast, to not mess with bracer procs and in general having the mana to cast the spell, but 80% of the mana spent will be returned instantly).
Last edited:
I have been keeping up with this thread just for the heck of it. I don't even know who Snake is in game so don't take this personally. You mentioned mages so I feel like I have to reply to that bit. I'll trade you "more utility just with their rods" for your FD, resurrection, regen-taps, and class tome for group mana regen. This is an mmo right. Your one class can keep an entire group FM in an exp group if you tried or at least never have to med. Your group is Your dps when you are able to complish this. Would such a group ever want another class over yours for exp/6 man/raids when they come pre-loaded with the rest of the class utility? Come on. Be sensible.
TL;DR For those who dont want to read everything in this topic, Yusuke summed up what everyone is trying to tell Snake. and Snake is just doing what he does best. Ignoring everyone even asking for opinions.
This is a post about DoT change. I'm sorry for me replying to all the non sense. I will stop that now.
Again to all reading this idea. It's about DoT's in general, and its about DoT's costing 20% mana of its cost when cast, and then the remaining 80% will be deducted as the dot is ticking away.
(The dot will actually cost 100% normal right when cast, to not mess with bracer procs and in general having the mana to cast the spell, but 80% of the mana spent will be returned instantly).
