Damage over Time idea.

[Snake]

So you find the fact (yes, fact) that the crit dependend class that is built around crits actually is better at crits then anyone else hillarious. Maybe you should just stop posting altogether.

It's not build around crit's, it just get stupid good numbers from crit's.

And yeah it's hilarious that you think, that obv the class that benefits the most from DD crit's, should also get the most of them, while the class that benefits the most from dot crit's (casting 6 dots) should not be good at dot crits, because Necromancer crits can't do 40k damage, duh!


Even more hilarious when I again and again see wizards doing more damage than any one else (Rangers, Monks and Beastlords often content Wizards for their crown, but Wizards most often wear it though)

 

[Snake]

So you find the fact (yes, fact) that the crit dependend class that is built around crits actually is better at crits then anyone else hillarious. Maybe you should just stop posting altogether.

This being posted in a thread idea about making a change to a mechanic that other classes are build around, an idea you strongly disagree to, makes this comment even more hilarious.

Why is it that Wizards have to be the best dps around?
I mean they aren't on live or any other server I know of. What is it that makes it so blatantly obvious to every one in SoD, that Wizards have to be the best dps class?

Okey really enchanters are the silent kings, but that I can understand, because they are dependent on other class' to do their insane dps, wizards aren't.

 

[Snake]

Wizards are build around crit's, they can get crazy high numbers from them, so obviously they also need to get more crit's than any other class.

Necromancers are build around dots, they don't get any special crit's or more crit's from dots than Wizards do on DD crit's, yet when it's pointed out that this dot mechanic in today's dps pace makes the mechanic very bad in shorter fights such as exp groups, well just don't use it!

Okey. So Wizards needs more of what they build around cause it's working well for them, yet necromancers should just not do what they are build around, cause it's working bad for them...
I don't know, perhaps you are so right about this that I should stop posting, it just seems, unbalanced, biased and wrong to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the wizard class changed, it's a super fun class to play, I just wish that dots where balanced to be more fun too.


Remember this idea is about dots in general, not just necro dots.
Also remember is an idea to make dots cost mana based on how much of its damage it delivered, aka dots won't do more damage what so ever.

 

[Nwaij]

It's not build around crit's, it just get stupid good numbers from crit's.

Are you even looking at the numbers provided? Are you even trying to understand them? Wizards are relying on crits to be comparable in DPM to other casters, like it or not. And since big crits are their shtik - heck they have two entire lines of AAs devoted to crits - they obviously are BETTER at them as well.

Even more hilarious when I again and again see wizards doing more damage than any one else (Rangers, Monks and Beastlords often content Wizards for their crown, but Wizards most often wear it though)

Why is it that Wizards have to be the best dps around?
I mean they aren't on live or any other server I know of. What is it that makes it so blatantly obvious to every one in SoD, that Wizards have to be the best dps class?

Man please, you are better then this! Provide parses for the following fight durations, with absolutely no med breaks, vs mobs you aren't overtiered to, for the following classes:

Fight durations: 1 min, 5 min, 10 min, 20 min, 30 min.
Classes: WIZ NEC RNG MNK

Expected results:
WIZ will most likely dominate the first 2 time frames (1 and 5 min, depending on crits) and perform well enough on the 3rd (10 min). After that, his DPS will be absolutely horrible due to no mana any more. The lower tier the lower the manapool, the sooner the OOM happens and the sooner WIZ dps will suck.
MNK will do consistent DPS no matter the fights duration, dominating the later brackets (starting somewhere around 10+ min).
RNG will do mostly consistent DPS. It will propably down a bit once the RNG runs oom. No idea how long that takes, but they will for sure outparse WIZ in the 10+ min fights.
NEC will do very high very consistent DPS for the time his mana lasts, and the best mana regen in the game by a long shot. So while WIZ (and likely RNG) will beat them in short fights (read: while they have mana), NECs will absolutely destroy WIZ in long fights (and should dominate RNG nicely for the time NECs have mana but RNGs don't.)

Lessons learned:
Not all classes are equal. Some classes are burst dps, who are really good in short fights. Other classes are sustained dps, who shine in longer fights. DoT classes are not burst classes. They do not shine in short fights. They are not meant to. This is working as intended. Nothing justifies the class with the best mana regen in the game (or any other class for that matter) getting compensated for poor decession making.

If you still feel the need to compensate people for mana spent on damage that wasn't really needed to kill a mob, please write a compelling argument for how a wizard should get about 8 times the cost of a nuket reimbursed if he so happens to land a primal blast on a mob that is at 0%.

 

[Snake]

20 minut fights? 30 minut fights? I mean I know Seven Virtues are pretty chill, but what fights takes you 20 minuts? or even 30? Don't you stack Wizards and Rangers on your raids?
Are we talking clears involved? What is your frame of reference here?

But sure, I'll do some parses, but what ever comes of it, what the heck does it have to do with this dot idea? Other than the 1 minut example...

This has little to do with my idea here, but I'm fine going over balance of class's, if thats what it takes for this idea to be taken seriously.

 

[Nwaij]

Xp groups tend to last for even more then 20-30 min, at least for most of us. And I think we have established at this point that noone but you is going to take this idea serious, no matter what.

 

[Binsin]

The only reason he made this post is because his post about giving necros an overpowered way to secure kill shots was shot down, and hes really bad at timing kill shots, so he cant get his mana back from the tome, so he wants something else to make up for his poor skills. He should just stick to warrior and his "2.5k dps" and stop trying to fuck with other classes.

 

[Melodico]

 

[Snake]

Xp groups tend to last for even more then 20-30 min, at least for most of us. And I think we have established at this point that noone but you is going to take this idea serious, no matter what.

We have established that you don't want necro's to change at all, thats for sure.
Although many necromancers posts again and again that they feel they could use a leg up.
They may not agree with my idea's of what the best change would be; that still keeps the spirit of the necromancer, slow build damage, but great mana with a splash of utilitiy, but they basicly all feel they need something.

It is a fact though, that Dot's arent great mana in shorter fights. You even showed it with a nice flowchart.
Yet you go out of your way to just throw around wild arguments, even though its plain to see that dots are bad in short fights.
People posting "Dude, you dont understand your class, you are not suppose to try and dot mobs okey, aim for the killshot, give group mana!". Seriously? Everyone (even Devs) are just fine with the fact that an almost pure dot class, is not suppose to cast dots in exp groups? Its just not fast enough in today's pace, you will run oom fast doing very little damage... (higher tiers).


Anyway, i'll do some parses, since your flowchart apperently isen't enough to convince people.

 

[Apros]

We have established that you don't want necro's to change at all, thats for sure.
Although many necromancers posts again and again that they feel they could use a leg up.
They may not agree with my idea's of what the best change would be; that still keeps the spirit of the necromancer, slow build damage, but great mana with a splash of utilitiy, but they basicly all feel they need something.

It is a fact though, that Dot's arent great mana in shorter fights. You even showed it with a nice flowchart.
Yet you go out of your way to just throw around wild arguments, even though its plain to see that dots are bad in short fights.
People posting "Dude, you dont understand your class, you are not suppose to try and dot mobs okey, aim for the killshot, give group mana!". Seriously? Everyone (even Devs) are just fine with the fact that an almost pure dot class, is not suppose to cast dots in exp groups? Its just not fast enough in today's pace, you will run oom fast doing very little damage... (higher tiers).


Anyway, i'll do some parses, since your flowchart apperently isen't enough to convince people.

Again, fight harder monsters. I used to do citadel when Apros had 7k hp, the groups you are taking are ridiculously overtier, if you are fighting single monsters (with maybe exception of constructs/names MAYBE) With a necro in your group, IMO your doing it wrong.

I don't think anyone denies that maybe necros could use a slight tweak, (caster pet seems to be a hotspot) but the idea you have suggested is not likely as easy as you think to code, test and implement, with other factors combined as well as being kind of OP as a premise in general. Personally I would like to see the Devs focus their attention elsewhere than to spend copious amounts of hours on balancing this.

The reason I asked for the Rohk parse is because maybe you weren't top dps on the trash, but i'm sure you were near the top on the boss, which in all reality isn't that what we all care about most? Just my thoughts...

 

[jumbers]

Please... please no more. Please let this die.

 

[Dinadass]

Way back in the day my first main was a necro, and I was cool and good and got to tag along with higher tiered people for exp. And I'd cast a dot and then the mob would die and my DPS was 0. So I quit my necro lol.

Make necro dots do all their damage instantly and I wouldn't have had that negative game experience probably.

 

[darksabbath]

Make necro dots do all their damage instantly and I wouldn't have had that negative game experience probably.

Well that is easy enough, I have the secret for that! First, delete the necro, and then roll up a wizard using the EXACT same name. Problem solved, you are welcome.

 

[Snake]

Way back in the day my first main was a necro, and I was cool and good and got to tag along with higher tiered people for exp. And I'd cast a dot and then the mob would die and my DPS was 0. So I quit my necro lol.

Make necro dots do all their damage instantly and I wouldn't have had that negative game experience probably.

Heheh, well that's a bad idea, but the problem is real.
Its what im trying to adress here, but only by losing less mana when having these "womp womp" moments, that necro and dot class' in general have a lot of in exp groups.

Its funny how so many think that necro's have unlimited mana, I did a parsing vs a slightly lower tierd wizard than my necro, and I ran out of mana chaining my 5 dots, faster than the wizard did chaining his archaic. This was on 1 target that never died (Hoyas was the wizard, he also did more damage with his mana bar, only getting 2 ultimate blasts).
Even worse when you cast 2 dots on an exp target, but the wizard takes the kill shot with his 2nd nuke. Your dots did 3 ticks total, your down 1k mana, you did 5k damage, the wizard walks away with FM and having done 20k damage...

All I suggest here, is that at least let the necro get away with "only" having spend ~350 mana in this scenario, not 1k.
At least she can play a little longer before turning off dots, and trying to 'pet attack' time kill shots for mana, and/or the poison single target DD, thats pretty terrible, but atleast wont lose to much mana...

 

[iBluNT]

and trying to 'pet attack' time kill shots for mana, and/or the poison single target DD, thats pretty terrible, but atleast wont lose to much mana...

This is why your ideas get so much negative feedback. Instead of trying to offer a simple change to the two poor things you just highlighted and acknowledged about necros (ie. increase DD damage slightly, or buff pet health/dmg slightly which was mentioned by another end-game necro earlier in the thread), let's just do a "simple" re-work of the entire fundamentals of damage over time spells to better suit one of the many classes that uses them.

You aren't a wizard and never will be a wizard, Harry. You come into threads saying you're not trying to compare but always end up comparing. You press a different button at Character Creation for a reason.

 

[Snake]

This is why your ideas get so much negative feedback. Instead of trying to offer a simple change to the two poor things you just highlighted and acknowledged about necros (ie. increase DD damage slightly, or buff pet health/dmg slightly which was mentioned by another end-game necro earlier in the thread), let's just do a "simple" re-work of the entire fundamentals of damage over time spells to better suit one of the many classes that uses them.

You aren't a wizard and never will be a wizard, Harry. You come into threads saying you're not trying to compare but always end up comparing. You press a different button at Character Creation for a reason.

Uhm... So because I come with an illustration of a near oom Necro trying to get kill shots, you tell me that I try to be a wizard?
"This is why your ideas get so much negative feedback" you say, and I agree in the sense, that you dont understand what I'm saying.

What I kinda hear you say is "Instead of trying to get mana on dots redesigned, you should just ask for stronger DD's and stronger Pets", and then you say I need to stop trying to be more like a Wizard. And something about what buttons I clicked when I created my char back in 2008... I don't know man, this seem more odd than claiming that Dots and DDs have the same drawbacks damage for mana wise, because both can "Land on a dead target", and do nothing....

The comparing happens as a result of the claims of other posters, that Dots are insanly mana efficient. I try to put it in to perspective, cause they arent as great as many think.


Alright, once again.
The idea here is plain and simple, when ever someone casts a dot, following will happen.
1. Mana, resist and targets ect, happens same as usual.
2. 80% of the mana spend, is returned to the caster.
3. 80% of the mana spend is divided up in # of total ticks.
4. Every time the dot ticks, it will cost the caster mana.


No desire to be a wizard.
The idea is not about more damage DD's.
The idea is not about more damage DoT's.
This idea is for all class's that casts dots.

 

[iBluNT]

Welp I've made the mistake of involving myself in this thread again. You got a thick skull! None of this stuff is ever gonna roll out no need to reiterate your idea.
GL

 

[Snake]

Yeah I can't get in to my thick skull these common sense -rules?-, of what has a chance to be changed, and what does not.

To me it's not a unreasonable request, from my experience with dots and their mana cost and general power lvl, pro's and cons.

Appreciate your attempt to help me though.

 

[Melodico]

haha

Please... please no more. Please let this die.

 

[Taryth]

OK, I think I can sum this up. We have no plans to make changes to how DOTs work. If we need to revisit things, we can consider some of this.