Flecthing revamp
- Thread starter Gargate
- Start date
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Being rude to others, admins or not, is never going to help...
Thank you! I figure that if I don't 100% understand the issues, others reading the forums are in the same ballpark. Couple more questions if you don't mind
:
1. This new fletching change happened because of the recent body type and bane damage changes? (The bump to 15 body types, removal of elemental errors, and the non-stacking of bane damage for melee/non-ranged combat. The last of which is not in argument here.)
2. Rangers are upset about 2 things? :
a. They have to pay, via buying arrows, to produce any ranged DPS.
b. Due to taking away elemental errors, rangers have to carry around a bunch of different bane damage arrows if they want to max DPS for all encounters.
3. Because of the recent changes, have rangers lost enough ranged DPS to change their position in the DPS hierarchy?
I totally get that number 2a and 3 could be problematic, but all the hubbub seems to be about number 2b. Isn't number 2b now sort of putting rangers on par with all other melee classes? If a rogue wants to max dps for all encounters, said rogue would need a bane damage item for each of 15 body types. I guess I am not understanding why being the only melee dps class that can effectively max bane dps on each mob can be seen as a bad thing
Thank you! I figure that if I don't 100% understand the issues, others reading the forums are in the same ballpark. Couple more questions if you don't mind
:1. This new fletching change happened because of the recent body type and bane damage changes? (The bump to 15 body types, removal of elemental errors, and the non-stacking of bane damage for melee/non-ranged combat. The last of which is not in argument here.)
2. Rangers are upset about 2 things? :
a. They have to pay, via buying arrows, to produce any ranged DPS.
b. Due to taking away elemental errors, rangers have to carry around a bunch of different bane damage arrows if they want to max DPS for all encounters.
3. Because of the recent changes, have rangers lost enough ranged DPS to change their position in the DPS hierarchy?
I totally get that number 2a and 3 could be problematic, but all the hubbub seems to be about number 2b. Isn't number 2b now sort of putting rangers on par with all other melee classes? If a rogue wants to max dps for all encounters, said rogue would need a bane damage item for each of 15 body types. I guess I am not understanding why being the only melee dps class that can effectively max bane dps on each mob can be seen as a bad thing
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
They actually gained +1 dmg to all their arrows of the correct bane type. They lost no dps, but gained a huge inconvience. Ranged bow shots dont benefit from bane damage on gear, only the bow/arrows
CharmCitysKing
Dalayan Elder
They use a bounty-hunters belt as their bane damage item. They at no point consume anything in order to DPS. They put belts in a bag and swap them out whenever the bane type changes.
Maybe if there was only 1 single type of arrow, and rangers just swapped belts for whatever type of mob they were shooting at, the situation would be comparable. But with the change, a Ranger's inventory becomes a giant cluster fuck and we also have to pay ALOT more money to have FIFTEEN FINITE QUIVERS at all times.
It's funny because this all started by monks and rogues doing broken DPS by stacking so much bane on their characters. IMO the easy fix would be just reduce the amount of bane available to a player. But a very complex new bane damage system was introduced and while it's certainly not ruining the Ranger class it's making it more complicated and clustery and unenjoyable.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
Yeah seriously all that needed to be done was let bane damage cap out at like 7 and everything would be fine. Or the new incoming bane system where bane damage works like a focus effect (highest wins, doesnt stack). Not adding 15 bodytypes and pissing everyone off
what I posted in the other fletching thread.
1) condense body types down to like maybe 5 or 6 and cap how much bane dmg you can wear.
2) keep resist/elemental arrows gone if they're that big of a deal but only having 5-6 body types makes this palatable.
3) endless quiver combine with quivers only having 25 charges and only summons 1 arrow that is no rent no trade, get rid of the arrow "just one". saving bag space, avoiding a class built around a TS and lowering cost to play.
3) make bane arrows 8+2 making melee more competitive while still maintaining the small dps nerf to rangers.
4) less bank space needed for fletchers because they would only need to stock 5-6 types of arrows instead of 15.
that boosts melee back up some making there bane needs less annoying, helps fletchers out to stock what they need and reduces the rangers head ache while maintaining the mild nerf to dps that everyone seems to think they need.
1) condense body types down to like maybe 5 or 6 and cap how much bane dmg you can wear.
2) keep resist/elemental arrows gone if they're that big of a deal but only having 5-6 body types makes this palatable.
3) endless quiver combine with quivers only having 25 charges and only summons 1 arrow that is no rent no trade, get rid of the arrow "just one". saving bag space, avoiding a class built around a TS and lowering cost to play.
3) make bane arrows 8+2 making melee more competitive while still maintaining the small dps nerf to rangers.
4) less bank space needed for fletchers because they would only need to stock 5-6 types of arrows instead of 15.
that boosts melee back up some making there bane needs less annoying, helps fletchers out to stock what they need and reduces the rangers head ache while maintaining the mild nerf to dps that everyone seems to think they need.
cian2
Dalayan Master
I totally get that number 2a and 3 could be problematic, but all the hubbub seems to be about number 2b. Isn't number 2b now sort of putting rangers on par with all other melee classes? If a rogue wants to max dps for all encounters, said rogue would need a bane damage item for each of 15 body types. I guess I am not understanding why being the only melee dps class that can effectively max bane dps on each mob can be seen as a bad thing
supposedly in the bane item revamp, bane damage to a bunch of various mob types will be put on existing items, so other dps might need to carry around swap items with bane damage to each enemy, whereas a ranger has to carry around quivers for each bodytype
i think it'd be better if rangers were affected by worn bane items and just had elemental arrows
Whopperfoo
Dalayan Adventurer
I just wanted to say a few simple things to get more mained ranger input out there:
1) I agree with the sentiments of the other rangers/tradeskillers that have weighed in so far so I won't make more posts rehashing already stated issues or solutions.
2) Tao - Sincerely, thanks for the work you put into the game and the effort to improve and make more interesting both this class and tradeskill.
3) Clearly this change isn't that great and won't work well as implemented. Don't take this as "you suck we hate this/you", but please work with the player base to find a different adjustment that does work for the class.
4) WTT 1 quiver of superb cold arrows and 1 quiver of superb poison arrows for Frost Mastery II or Crit Evo II.
Brickey
1) I agree with the sentiments of the other rangers/tradeskillers that have weighed in so far so I won't make more posts rehashing already stated issues or solutions.
2) Tao - Sincerely, thanks for the work you put into the game and the effort to improve and make more interesting both this class and tradeskill.
3) Clearly this change isn't that great and won't work well as implemented. Don't take this as "you suck we hate this/you", but please work with the player base to find a different adjustment that does work for the class.
4) WTT 1 quiver of superb cold arrows and 1 quiver of superb poison arrows for Frost Mastery II or Crit Evo II.
Brickey
Tarutao
Staff Emeritus
This, like every other change made in this game, is subject to balancing adjustments. This is an inevitability for MMOs that give two (cough)s about their content. I do have other things I'm working on, and the overall changes to bane made a sudden "this needs to done with priority" situation with Fletching.
There are things to adjust with Fletching as it is now, but at least it's functional. If I'm just going to get yelled at, I'll go work on what I was doing before, and I'll get back to Fletching when I'm done with it.
tl;dr: Changes coming, but not priority now.
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Edited to add: If you're adamant about elemental arrows, then it'd speed things up a lot for me if I can some seriously good parses of them. Go shoot some harthuks with some poison or disease arrows for a few hours and with 8 damage no bonus arrows for a few hours or something. Be helpful and put in hours of work for something for the betterment of the server. If you won't do that, shut up.
There are things to adjust with Fletching as it is now, but at least it's functional. If I'm just going to get yelled at, I'll go work on what I was doing before, and I'll get back to Fletching when I'm done with it.
tl;dr: Changes coming, but not priority now.
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Edited to add: If you're adamant about elemental arrows, then it'd speed things up a lot for me if I can some seriously good parses of them. Go shoot some harthuks with some poison or disease arrows for a few hours and with 8 damage no bonus arrows for a few hours or something. Be helpful and put in hours of work for something for the betterment of the server. If you won't do that, shut up.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
I'm sure people would be a lot more inclined to do this if these elemental damage arrows were not finite now. Especially seeing as how bane damage is still MIA, making the elemental damage arrows literally the only way to go for maxing your raid dps at this time.
A sproutari sporecaster 3/19/13 1:06:42 AM
Avg Normal hit 3936 avg crit 6515
A sproutari sporecaster 3/31/13 4:23:36 PM
Avg normal hit 2329 avg crit 5309
if you want i can go through later and condense months of parses but I figured 2 of the same mob would work. Edit if you want I can condense my parses to show my old clockwork bow on spore caster's prenerf and what acid tongue looked like prenerf, cus I just noticed my avg hit now with acid tongue isnt much different then prenerf T7 bow.
also my last post on body type/bane for melee and fletching would work about condensing the types down to like 6. its not just having broad use arrows its all the carring stuff around, fletchers having to stock tons of 1's and 2's and the melee nerf/pain with the same issues.
thank you for your time, off to work I go
Avg Normal hit 3936 avg crit 6515
A sproutari sporecaster 3/31/13 4:23:36 PM
Avg normal hit 2329 avg crit 5309
if you want i can go through later and condense months of parses but I figured 2 of the same mob would work. Edit if you want I can condense my parses to show my old clockwork bow on spore caster's prenerf and what acid tongue looked like prenerf, cus I just noticed my avg hit now with acid tongue isnt much different then prenerf T7 bow.
also my last post on body type/bane for melee and fletching would work about condensing the types down to like 6. its not just having broad use arrows its all the carring stuff around, fletchers having to stock tons of 1's and 2's and the melee nerf/pain with the same issues.
thank you for your time, off to work I go
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Kedrin
Dalayan Pious Diety
I really don't understand why you even started the change if you didn't have the time to follow through with the whole change. I understand you have a real life and I don't think anyone will blame you for that. This just seems to happen a lot and it's rather irritating. Not trying to single you out in any way but it seems like the trend of changes or "fixes" is to nerf first and complete later. By changing fletching you nerfed the whole ranger class in not only dps but also in "fun level". Seeing that fixing this change that was very quickly patched into the game is instantly put in the back seat is sad to hear at best.
I don't feel the real problem is that elemental arrows were taken out of the game. The problem is that rangers are the only class so depending on a trade skill in the game. Fletching shouldn't have the ability to make the very best arrows in the game. The very best way, I feel, to fix this problem is giving Rangers endless quiver and an arrow that is a reward from a quest that can be upgraded as the ranger goes through the tiers.
Elemental arrows were taken out of the game. Having a GM tell a whole class that a problem will not get fixed untill they spend hours of their time parsing with an item that can no longer be made is dubious at best. Why should elemental arrows even be a part of the equation? They are no longer in the game. The only thing that needs to be tested is what is the difference between dps with an 8 dmg arrow vs a 12 dmg arrows (8+4 bane). The problem with this is that no testing even needs to be done. It's just simple math. You love math. Just plug in 8 and then plug in 12 and see the difference. No hours of killing light blues is needed.
EDIT: Telling us to shut up makes me feel all warm inside by the way.
Also, why was the better fletching thread that was older and had better information in it get closed down and the one that is mainly focused on bashing a GM was chosen for continuing this topic?
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Tarutao
Staff Emeritus
No. After the things you have said, you do not get to be upset about being told to shut up if you're unwilling to help. You have attacked me, my commitment to this game, and my level of caring for the SoD community. You don't get to play the victim card.
Endless quiver and "just let some mob drop an item that gives me infinite arrows of the best kind" are not options. I'm keeping an eye out for other suggestions.
Kedrin
Dalayan Pious Diety
Why do rangers have to pay to play when every other class gets a free pass?
well I was doing some thinking today after reading the thread this morning and talking with guildies last night. What I got is the problem with fletching and the current ranger class is more then just our issues.
This all started from melee stacking bane and that only a few bane were being used. The fix to this was condensing some body types and expanding others "note I am not completely against bane dmg".
How ever in CW we have found that this change to body type not only has made the game less enjoyable as a whole but nerfed dps not just for melee or rangers but bane spells on casters and pally abilities.
So now were at a standstill Dev's not just Tao but others came up with an idea and put a lot of effort in to it, that in its self is not bad but maybe needs tweaked. Feelings were hurt on both sides and now that I have had time to relax I would like to apologize to Tao personally.
now on to what I was thinking, so we have casters/melee/pally/rangers/trade skill merchants to think about not just rangers "IMO this thread should be restarted to include those players in the title".
1st up body types were getting underused and some over used, okay well 6 body types should work, for most exp zones maybe they would have 2-3 and most raids zones 4-5. "some body types would be more niche then others"
what this does is cuts down bag space required for melee and rangers by a lot, second this allows the trade skill players to focus their inventory.
sadly some of the bane spells would have to be balanced. along with balance how much bane would cap at and what dmg we would get from the arrows.
2nd Kedrin is right we need to address the ranger requiring tradeskilled items to do anything worth doing"no other class is stuck like that" . I've suggested some things before but if endless quiver is 100% out of the question then maybe we can expand how many casts a quiver has, say 100 instead of 50 and some way to get say 2 stacks of CoD arrows instead of 1.
If devs and other players are willing I think we can get this hammered out. we could keep bane/body type changes but tweaked, help out fletchers, reduce bag space issues and over all improve gameplay.
This all started from melee stacking bane and that only a few bane were being used. The fix to this was condensing some body types and expanding others "note I am not completely against bane dmg".
How ever in CW we have found that this change to body type not only has made the game less enjoyable as a whole but nerfed dps not just for melee or rangers but bane spells on casters and pally abilities.
So now were at a standstill Dev's not just Tao but others came up with an idea and put a lot of effort in to it, that in its self is not bad but maybe needs tweaked. Feelings were hurt on both sides and now that I have had time to relax I would like to apologize to Tao personally.
now on to what I was thinking, so we have casters/melee/pally/rangers/trade skill merchants to think about not just rangers "IMO this thread should be restarted to include those players in the title".
1st up body types were getting underused and some over used, okay well 6 body types should work, for most exp zones maybe they would have 2-3 and most raids zones 4-5. "some body types would be more niche then others"
what this does is cuts down bag space required for melee and rangers by a lot, second this allows the trade skill players to focus their inventory.
sadly some of the bane spells would have to be balanced. along with balance how much bane would cap at and what dmg we would get from the arrows.
2nd Kedrin is right we need to address the ranger requiring tradeskilled items to do anything worth doing"no other class is stuck like that" . I've suggested some things before but if endless quiver is 100% out of the question then maybe we can expand how many casts a quiver has, say 100 instead of 50 and some way to get say 2 stacks of CoD arrows instead of 1.
If devs and other players are willing I think we can get this hammered out. we could keep bane/body type changes but tweaked, help out fletchers, reduce bag space issues and over all improve gameplay.
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Kedrin
Dalayan Pious Diety
I am very willing to help. I also feel that there is some type of misunderstanding since I never wished to offend you on a personal level whatsoever.
What did I say exactly that made you feel attacked? question your commitment to this game or your level of caring for the SoD community?
Are you confusing me with someone else? or are you using the word "you" to describe people other then myself?
The only thing I have posted in this thread was that I wish that changes were more finished before they are put into the game.
Using the bane damage changes as an example. Currently the mobs body types are in making all old world bane damage items worthless, since they have not been added. Why did the body types have to change before items were changed? I have seen some arrows that have the incorrect body types listed on them vs the name of the items. I have seen mobs still having "old" body types.
Not sure how this could be taken as a personal attack at all.
Re-Reading through the "Changes to Fletching" thread...
I shared my view point that Rangers are being forced to use a trade skill, Fletching, and no other class does in the entire game.
Around November, 11 2010, when the first wave of re-vamped Fletching came into the game...
Summoned: Heartseeker Arrow went from 9 base damage && 200 range to 5 base damage +5 magic damage && 75 range.
Making Mage arrows no longer an option to use for rangers.
Summoned: Nightmare Arrow went from 10 base damage && 200 range to 6 base damage && 75 range.
This made Quiver of the Mind just about worthless for rangers. I guess this was a good thing since Quiver of the Mind cool down was a huge pain to deal with and forced rangers to stay logged to never lose their arrows or log in very early to raids and "stalk up" before raids. This item's main problem was probably the fact that they have too much damage on them for their tier and the fact that there was nothing to replace the item with. This is funny because now anyone can use the very best arrows in the game from the get go at level 1.
Was it just a coincidence that these items were changed on the same day the Fletching changes went live?
Perhaps I was stepping over the line when I said; "It seems very selfish." However all logic leads to rangers being forced to use the Fletching trade skill just to play the game.
Maybe it wasn't your call. Perhaps someone else told you to make Fletching and they liked your work so they forced everyone to use it.
I am sorry if you were personally hurt by me calling you selfish. I do think you are a good guy and I would never wish to intentionally hurt your feelings.
Perhaps I also crossed the line when I said; "He also somehow made it so no other Dev wants to make items that in any way step on his "fletching tradeskill toes". I feel this is a large reason why Shadowstorm was never looked into."
I do feel that Shadowstorm was never tinkered with to be made useful because Marza did not want to interfere with the Fletching trade skill. Once again, I could be very off base and I am sorry I said it like it was a fact.
After I said
,which I still 100% agree with, the reply that Cless made...
just solidified my thought process that Tarutao or just the time he put into re-making the Fletching skill made it so the game will forever force rangers to only use arrows made from that trade skill.
Oh and there was this...
Never wanted to hurt you Tarutao I just hate to see changes go in that make my class less fun to play in SoD. I hope you understand.
I am 100% willing in any way to help with fixing the ranger class.
This is also a great idea....
I do NOT think endless quiver being added into the game could hurt the game in any way. Fletching Trade skill could be changed a number of different ways. Type 4 augs are on the majority of the bows in the game. The trade skill could make +1 bane damage augs to any of the 15 types. Rangers would buy quite a few of them to change them out as they raid different areas. They could also make the augs have cool procs such as.... +hate procs, snare procs, group life taps (like the Branch of Conquering Legacies bow proc)
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RobbyBenson24
Dalayan Elder
I bet if monks could buy expendable items that increased their dps by 300 or 400, they might be happy.