God help us, its a BST thread

Discussion in 'Balancing Discussion' started by Taryth, Feb 27, 2015.

  1. Swiftur

    Swiftur Dalayan Elder

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    BRACER PROCS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOO!
     
  2. daenar_sod

    daenar_sod Dalayan Elder

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    Your mother was a hampster and your father smells of elderberries!
     
  3. Kharras

    Kharras Dalayan Adventurer

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    Tune BSTs to do an average dps somewhere around 20% less than an equal tiered WIZ. Problem solved. That was easy.


    *Disregard above statement if you think it's dumb*
     
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  4. Taryth

    Taryth Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh yeah, I should have just plugged in bst = wiz * 0.8 and been done...

    Not sure if srs. Anyway, still working on changes, there's a weird problem with proc calcs right now that I'm trying to sort out. Also, this process has revealed a few items that are HORRIBLY out of whack from a proc/clicky perspective, don't be surprised if that gets addressed soon.
     
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  5. Thade

    Thade DINOSAUR THADE

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    What sort of items are we talking? There's a bunch of items currently propping up some broken item progression that could use nerfed, but other items would need reworked some to fix the fact that those items were keeping other itemization issues from mattering.
     
  6. sabuti

    sabuti Dalayan Elder

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    #buffrujikbracer2015
     
  7. Rusheeth

    Rusheeth Dalayan Adventurer

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    Hi guys. I was directed to post here, but I'll preface this by saying I'm putting out experience and parses for a level 55, so I'm just here to talk about scaling I guess? Anyway my character is Rushonix (yeah augs are silly idk what to do for that level). I stacked h2h mods during the time when h2h mod = better fist ratio and that was awesome, but now it's changed I wondered were my fists and the procs still better than weapons and stats? So testing on gemiathans with gamparse (fully buffed):

    Fleshripper + Stoneshatter Hammer (.65 ratio + .63 ratio) = 45-60 dps

    Fists + Spirit-Saturated Gloves (18% proc rate) + (h2h23) = 70-80 dps

    Pet (CS5) = 80 dps

    May have seemed obvious? Idk everyone told me the stats were better. Sorry if it's not relevant here, but still, I love the changes so far and am contemplating levelling to 65 because I'm enjoying my bst so much.
     
  8. cornelweezy

    cornelweezy Dalayan Elder

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    SSGs have 2 magic dmg added to the dmg side of the fist ratio. That ontop of your +23h2h mean your accuracy is much higher with barefists as a 55 than your weaps. And of course the proc dps is an obvious bonus.
     
  9. Swiftur

    Swiftur Dalayan Elder

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    So after some time playing around with the mimic stance while @Taryth was on vacation, I've come to really enjoy the halved duration swarm pets since I get twice as many through Monkey See, Monkey Do. I think it bodes WAY better for EXP groups because more damage in shorter time is more efficient for a spell like this in that scenario. Also, because the same amount of damage is done, It doesn't negatively affect other situations either (raid, 6man, etc.). I would like to see this stay as it is, even though it was unintended, it works out overall imho. I doubt it's on the table but gotta ask... I'd love to see a reduction in recast time. The spell costs so much mana, I don't see how it can cause balance issues if you shorten the recast, even half it.

    Additionally, if it's not possible to negate pet focus affects on mimic'd procs/spells and current mimic'd damage stays as it is... @daenar_sod and I were talking and came to agreement (i know right?) that PBAE rate of mimicking needs a good sized bump. However, if @Taryth is able to figure out that focus effect negation thingy so that base spell DMG is done, I think going back to 100% proc rate on all detrimental effects is in order, mostly for consistencies sake and the loss of DMG output from pet not receiving focus benefits. It should balance out better this way... at least conceptually. For the record, I prefer the latter.

    Finally, lets talk beneficial spell mimicking. I'm a fan. I can see how this dis-balances soothing to be too good, and I don't know if there's a way to exclude a spell/proc, etc... But short of that, are there any other problems with our pets having a chance to proc clickies like taesh belt, halloween, etc...? I'm good either way because I know this wasn't intended at all and I can see why (soothing), just my thoughts.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  10. Taryth

    Taryth Administrator Staff Member

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    OK, so here's the current deal. I've spent a week tracking down why pets were doing less than base damage on a lot of procs/clickies and found out it's due to the wacky as shit resist code. Unfortunately, getting around just that limited problem in a way that won't suck is going to be tricky and is likely to break other shit.

    So what I'm going to test is possibly putting AEs and such back to where they have a full chance to mimic to compensate for pets hitting less than they really should be while mimicking. The only fix is not allowing things like rains to proc a master's BPs (in addition to self-proccing, that's dumb). I'm hoping this kind of all comes out in the wash then, because otherwise the solution gets really cumbersome.

    Lastly, I'm open to bringing beneficial mimics back (they are going away next patch) subject to some restrictions, but I want the DPS thing sorted out first. I'm at least thinking about it though.

    So patch later this week with these things.
     
  11. Taryth

    Taryth Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh and no, pets don't get to summon other pets, sorry. :) That's off the table.
     
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  12. Swiftur

    Swiftur Dalayan Elder

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    Could a simple fix just be to give pets a -100 resist adjust across the board through a buff or something? "Looking at you Keshuval's protection.
     
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  13. Taryth

    Taryth Administrator Staff Member

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    No, its far more complicated than that, I looked at things like CHA buffs to pets and various other things, none is particularly clean.
     
  14. Swiftur

    Swiftur Dalayan Elder

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    Gross. I'm sure you've already thought of anything I could come up with then but was worth a shot :p.
     
  15. Swiftur

    Swiftur Dalayan Elder

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    How about this... since the pets will not even mimic base damage with this change... For only Beastlords, make shared power not share focus effects, but instead give the pet a % of the masters stats and % our our chance to crit melee? Our pet's don't get this innately and this would makeup for the loss in spell damage. As I mentioned before, short of soothing, which the Beastlord is the "caster" of anyway, it doesn't benefit us especially with the changes to pet spell damage affecting given weapon procs too.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  16. Swiftur

    Swiftur Dalayan Elder

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    So it was brought to my attention that Beastlords are the only melee type class that don't get 250 defense. wut mate? #tenuki2015
     
  17. susurrus

    susurrus Dalayan Elder

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    All of the BST stuff so far is pretty alright, I think the offense has more or less been addressed and these final tweaks are cool. There's one thing that I believe has been overlooked -- BST take way too much damage.

    Here's the thing:

    Rogue:
    defense: 250
    dodge: 250
    parry: 225
    riposte: 225

    Ranger:
    defense: 250
    dodge: 225
    parry: 225
    riposte: 225

    Bard:
    defense: 250
    dodge: 225
    parry: 175
    riposte: 150

    And the belle of the ball?
    Beastlord:
    defense: 230
    dodge: 225
    BLOCK: 200
    riposte: 200

    I've leveled many melee characters, and the one thing that stuck out about my beastlord was how horrible he is to heal. Thankfully I have a t12 or whatever healer to help with that, but they take a HUGE amount of damage compared to other similarly geared melee. Most recently, an undergeared bard took about half the healing of my bst farming slimes in yclist for R2.

    Why is a bard a good comparison? Their evasive stats are terrible compared to BST -- the only difference is the defense. I had more HP/AC/DR/whatever, and it was no contest.

    Given that all of the DPS melees have the standard 250 defense, I think it is reasonable that BST should get 250 defense as well. We've recently had a post describing the effect of weapon skills below and above 250 -- it clearly applies to defense skill as well. This is not paladins getting 245 1hs that can easily be brought to the 250 level, this is a skill that does not exist on any items and has a massive impact on any type of non-raid game play.

    To quote Zaela from the the Weapon Mods after 250 thread:

    thanks for the shout out swift.
     
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  18. Moraelintz

    Moraelintz Dalayan Elder

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    The thing about that is all the other melee classes wear better armor. Chain and plate vs leather it would make sense for them to have better defense. The only exception is the monk who wears leather but has good defensive skills.
     
  19. Moraelintz

    Moraelintz Dalayan Elder

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    Also, they can share their incoming damage with their pet so its feasible for them to take more damage.
     
  20. mechkl

    mechkl Dalayan Elder

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    except your pet shares pretty much unmitigated damage back to you.... that was a awesome change.
     

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