Haste, How does it work?

B

Binsin

Dalayan Elder
I would love to have a dev or someone who knoes 100% how haste works because I get confused sometimes by what certain items/buffs offer.

Theres Melee Haste, v1, v2, v3, Overhaste, and im curious as to what stacks with what? or they dont stack at all? theres a cap?

so Melee haste being the most basic, is pretty simple as far as worn haste goes, It dosnt stack with other warn haste items. But how does overhaste work? Do spell overhaste stack? or does the higher one override the haste from the lower one?

What does it mean when theres a item that procs or has a clicky spell that Increase Melee Haste v3 by 110%?
or Increase Melee Haste v2 by 75%? will the v2 haste and the v3 haste stack with other spell haste? does it count as overhaste? do they stack with each other? they dont seem to be considered overhaste, nor does the item that offers "Increase Melee Haste v3 by 110%" dosnt do anything for my melee haste. not sure if its not working properly or not, but even if it isnt, I think everyone would like to know just how haste works with other haste items.
 
from Wiz,

HASTE

There's 3 types of haste. Since we have no caps, "Overhaste" isn't really an accurate name.

Type 1: Normal spell haste
Type 2: Bard song haste, dawn shoulders, guardian of the forest, etc
Type 3: Some AA abilities, enchanter illusion haste, Heavenly Wrath

There are two types of bard haste. One is normal spell haste, and the Tribes line of songs have "song haste".
​
So can have 1 of each type that all stack. That's all I got for ya. As for the actual math, I'm an engineer so I'm bad at math; it's evil and magical and non understandable.
 
To my knowledge there are the 4 kinds of haste that stack, Item + Spell (effectively Type 1) + Song (Type 3 in the parser) + Clicky & Vulfwere labelled as Type 2 as well as custo sword proc

If you had like a 20 delay weapon, thats 1 swing every 2 seconds at no haste or 20/1.
with GoE you'd get 20/1.77 = 11.29 delay
with GoE + 49% haste you'd get 20 / 2.26 = 8.85 delay
Add Fiery you get 20 / 2.48 = 8.06 delay
Add an awake enchanter keeping vulfwere on you get 20/3.08 = 6.49 delay
 
Ovisha said:
To my knowledge there are the 4 kinds of haste that stack, Item + Spell (effectively Type 1) + Song (Type 3 in the parser) + Clicky & Vulfwere labelled as Type 2 as well as custo sword proc

If you had like a 20 delay weapon, thats 1 swing every 2 seconds at no haste or 20/1.
with GoE you'd get 20/1.77 = 11.29 delay
with GoE + 49% haste you'd get 20 / 2.26 = 8.85 delay
Add Fiery you get 20 / 2.48 = 8.06 delay
Add an awake enchanter keeping vulfwere on you get 20/3.08 = 6.49 delay
Click to expand...

Now saying thats how it works, Custo sword proc says "Increase Melee Haste v2 by 75%" on wiki, while Vulfwere is labeled as an Overhaste, I dont know if they stack or not? and if they dont, is it because of the illusions? or the haste? because the "spell parse" reads them as different types of haste.

Ortananoch, Custodian's Demise/Legacy of the Dragonkin -
Slot 2: Increase Melee Haste v2 by 75%
Slot 8: Illusion: Dragonkin
Slot 9: Increase Armor Class by 28

Spell: Boon of the Vulfwere-
Slot 1: Illusion Were Wolf
Slot 2: Add Weapon Proc: LifetapEffectNormal
Slot 3: Increase Attack Speed (Haste Above Cap) by 60%
Slot 4: Decrease Aggro by 25%

What does the spell parse mean by "slot 2" or "slot 8"?


 
Slot 1: Illusion: Werewolf
Slot 2: Add Weapon Proc: LifetapEffectNormal
Slot 3: Increase Melee Haste v2 by 60%
Slot 4: Decrease Agro by 25%


Effects:
Slot 2: Increase Melee Haste v2 by 75%
Slot 8: Illusion: Dragonkin
Slot 9: Increase AC by 28

they dont stack because they have the same type of haste.
 
iirc custo sword doesnt stack with somatic bond either, presumably because of the illusion. the term "overhaste" refers to v2 haste, and "song haste" refers to v3 haste effects like fiery and the ranger AA and whatnot
 
So from what I am understanding, There is Worn Haste, Then There are three types of Spell Haste. v1, v2, and v3. They stack with each other, but not with themselves. v1 being along the lines of "Normal" haste, GoE, Empower, Song of the Blademaster. v2 being some sort of larger haste, Boon of the Vulfwere, Legacy of the Dragonkin. and v3 a smaller haste that normally offers other benefits, Fiery, Twelve Tone Rhythm, Ect.
 
Binsin said:
What does the spell parse mean by "slot 2" or "slot 8"?
Click to expand...

Just for the record: buff effect slots are the main stacking mechanism for buffs. They're not relevant to the discussion of the different stacking types of haste effects as such; they're more concerned with buff effects that can add up linearly like +/-STR or +MaxHP, or ones you can have multiple independent instances of like melee procs.

Simply put, two buffs that have the same effect type (like +/-STR) in the same effect slot won't stack with each other. Two buffs with the same effect type in different slots may stack, as long as all of their shared effect types are in different slots.

This can get complicated when buffs have 5 or 6 or more effects each -- there are only 12 available slots on each buff, though only because that's how it was on EQ way back in 2004 or so -- but mostly boils down to things like "this line of buffs is distinguished by having the Regen effect in Slot 3; any regen buff that should stack needs to claim another slot for the Regen effect." Although, it can get difficult to juggle effect slots so that a buff stacks with all the things it should, and none of the things it shouldn't; when designing a new buff you would basically have to examine every other buff with any effect in common to find out if there are any "free" slots for each effect -- and if there weren't, there were some ugly workarounds to force things to stack when the slot system says they shouldn't.

(The way haste works on SoD could easily be mapped onto the slot system of stacking -- just dedicate a certain slot to a certain type of haste, rather than having different haste effects -- but the separate haste effects are a holdover from live where the different types of haste had different caps or whatever. Although, having separate effects does mean less slot juggling...)


Someday I'll manage to forget all this useless stuff...
 
Zaela said:
Just for the record: buff effect slots are the main stacking mechanism for buffs. They're not relevant to the discussion of the different stacking types of haste effects as such; they're more concerned with buff effects that can add up linearly like +/-STR or +MaxHP, or ones you can have multiple independent instances of like melee procs.

Simply put, two buffs that have the same effect type (like +/-STR) in the same effect slot won't stack with each other. Two buffs with the same effect type in different slots may stack, as long as all of their shared effect types are in different slots.

This can get complicated when buffs have 5 or 6 or more effects each -- there are only 12 available slots on each buff, though only because that's how it was on EQ way back in 2004 or so -- but mostly boils down to things like "this line of buffs is distinguished by having the Regen effect in Slot 3; any regen buff that should stack needs to claim another slot for the Regen effect." Although, it can get difficult to juggle effect slots so that a buff stacks with all the things it should, and none of the things it shouldn't; when designing a new buff you would basically have to examine every other buff with any effect in common to find out if there are any "free" slots for each effect -- and if there weren't, there were some ugly workarounds to force things to stack when the slot system says they shouldn't.

(The way haste works on SoD could easily be mapped onto the slot system of stacking -- just dedicate a certain slot to a certain type of haste, rather than having different haste effects -- but the separate haste effects are a holdover from live where the different types of haste had different caps or whatever. Although, having separate effects does mean less slot juggling...)
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for that insight. It was very informative.
 
To add my 2cp...

There's basically 6 types of haste that are additive, effects within the same type only the highest will apply (except for the dual wield bonus which is additive):
  1. Item Haste: worn effect on items
  2. Spell Haste: As found in spells like Swift like the Wind. Most Bard haste also falls in this category.
  3. Illusion/Special Haste: Given via certain AA's, certain spells (Enchanter's Boon of the Vulfwere) and other things (e.g., Vah and other short duration haste clickies)
  4. Song Haste: Commonly known as overhaste, the primary source of this type of haste is the tribe line of songs, such as Relic: Fiery Warcry of Taryhl
  5. Stance Haste: the various stances available to melee classes often have a haste component, e.g. aggresive stance
  6. Dual wield overcap bonus: 1% haste per overcap of dual wield
The actual math of how haste effects delay is as follows (matches up with my parsing):

Effective Delay = Delay * (Current attack rate / Hasted attack rate)

Your current attack rate is 100%. This is the standard speed at which you attack. Your hasted attack rate is your standard 100% attack rate, plus whatever rate increase you have from your haste item/song/spell (note that the parser shows type 3 haste incorrectly (e.g. Fiery shows up as 122% haste - its really 22%) . Dividing the current attack rate by the hasted attack rate gives you the factor by which your delay decreases.

So for example, Haenir with full haste effects has 251% haste (49% item + 77% goe + 75% dragon sword + 22% fiery + 5% aggresive stance + 1% dual wield) and thus his attack delay is decreased by a factor of ~.285 meaning that his main hand has an effective delay of 6.8 (24 *.285) and offhand an effective delay of 6.3 (22 * .285). You can parse those effective delay numbers for whatever setup you have, lag and rounding of course will probably make things a little squishy, but its close enough. And its possible that things like dual wield and stances change current attack rate rather than hasted attack rate which would also change the math slightly - so again a little guesswork going on.


What this math means though in a practical sense is that that first 100% of haste is worth more than the 2nd 100% and so on. I.e., a 100 delay weapon with 100% haste swings at an effective delay of 50 but at 200% swings at an effective delay of 33.3, and at 300% at an effective delay of 25.
 
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