LOL I love this club...

[JayelleNephilim]

After seeing the epic ownage just laid down by Wiz, I think I'll subscribe to this topic.

You are just kissing ass. :keke: He did nothing more but state his opinion. Which others did just as well previously but were dismissed because their beliefs were not the same.

Arguing such controversial topics via the internet/forums is pretty hillarious in my opinion. Do any of you really expect to budge anyone elses beliefs by doing so in such a fashion, heh? If not... why are you wasting your time posting here in the first place? =P

 

[vistachiri]

This thread wins, man there should be a duplicate copy in happyland.

Me personally I go by the idea that everyone's religions, delusions, whatever one wishes to call them, are all equally valid. Belief being the main separation of course (an individuals belief in their own paradigm, differing by amount from person to person, a member of the clergy of a religion ostensibly having more belief and faith than a layperson of said religion in an ideal state (though not always the case)), that and relative lack of harm to one's self or others, though that isn't entirely surprising due to my background in psych. After all one of the major qualifications for abnormal functioning in the dsm itself is the presence of that in particular for most disorders.

One of the best descriptions I've ever heard of this (the separation for myself of whether one causes harm by their religious beliefs or not, and whether it happens to be ok for society at large, for example one who believes their sacred duty is cannibalizing random people, not ok, most other religions, ok) came from one of my coworkers when I worked in an acute mental ward.

"See if some guy wants to wear a tinfoil hat, and earnestly believes he's a pig man from venus. As long as he isn't hurting anyone, or himself, well that's fine by us, we don't give a damm. Now if that same guy runs around on the street clubbing people with a wiffle bat and setting fires. Well then they end up here."

You are just kissing ass. :keke: He did nothing more but state his opinion. Which others did just as well previously but were dismissed because their beliefs were not the same.

Arguing such controversial topics via the internet/forums is pretty hillarious in my opinion. Do any of you really expect to budge anyone elses beliefs by doing so in such a fashion, heh? If not... why are you wasting your time posting here in the first place? =P

nah I personally don't expect anyone's beliefs to be changed. But then the thread for me isn't about that. Personally I've always found such discussions as a form of intellectual amusement. When of course kept civil and not falling into various grr you suck because you believe this, and my god's better than youuur god. When treated correctly sometimes even one in the right frame of mind gains more information about other faiths etc, and perhaps even gains a bit of respect or understanding for the faiths in question, though then that is also entirely dependant on the opinions their experiences and paradigm have formed for them over their lifespan. But then sometimes, sometimes its just fun

 

[JayelleNephilim]

I'd rather read books if I was just looking to be educated on others beliefs. You can skip all the immature mud flinging in the process, hahahah.

 

[Wiz]

You are just kissing ass. :keke: He did nothing more but state his opinion. Which others did just as well previously but were dismissed because their beliefs were not the same.

Arguing such controversial topics via the internet/forums is pretty hillarious in my opinion. Do any of you really expect to budge anyone elses beliefs by doing so in such a fashion, heh? If not... why are you wasting your time posting here in the first place? =P

If people wanted their precious beliefs to not be criticized, maybe they shouldn't post general degratory slurs about "scientists" and "atheists".

 

[Kyeld]

You are just kissing ass. :keke: He did nothing more but state his opinion. Which others did just as well previously but were dismissed because their beliefs were not the same.

Arguing such controversial topics via the internet/forums is pretty hillarious in my opinion. Do any of you really expect to budge anyone elses beliefs by doing so in such a fashion, heh? If not... why are you wasting your time posting here in the first place? =P

Hehe I wasn't just kissing ass, I agree with most of Wiz's opinion. I'm more agnostic though. I just find it funny when people get so high strung about their religion. Fanaticism is hilarious in every form. People just need to look at religion as more of a philosophy for living, rather than devoting your life to worship. As Wiz said, most religions are debunked. So worship whatever you do, and be happy about it. It'll probably be disproved sometime in the future anyway.

 

[misin]

I didn't say you were lazy because you disbelieve. Thats all up to you. I said you're lazy because you haven't dont your research, sir.

Again theres a difference between forcing belief on people and just enlightening them on something they have no knowledge about. This is why religious fanatics love religious chat so much. Because there is so much that people dont know. This is also why scientists get a little crazy when talking to people who dont know about it... simply because its fulfilling to teach others things they dont yet know.

I dont care if you become muslim or christian or whatever, i do care if you make that choice before looking into your options and doing some research (making you neglegant-maybe i could use neglegant instead of lazy?)

Maybe you're just afraid of the truth? (hahahahah)

 

[Waldoff]

If people wanted their precious beliefs to not be criticized, maybe they shouldn't post general degratory slurs about "scientists" and "atheists".

I didn't say you were lazy because you disbelieve. Thats all up to you. I said you're lazy because you haven't dont your research, sir.

You keep making these broad sweeping statements about non theists and how they obviously do not believe just because they have not "done their research". How is that any different than saying "you do not believe because you are lazy"

 

[Waldoff]

and it holds no water anyway. Show me this mind wavering research or else me saying "Your a theist because your lazy and have not done your research" holds the exact same weight.

 

[vistachiri]

I'd rather read books if I was just looking to be educated on others beliefs. You can skip all the immature mud flinging in the process, hahahah.

lol true but it loses that sometimes beneficial, more often mindnumbing and ridiculously frustrating feeling that social interaction has . Though for me I suppose it's no wonder why I'd prefer discussion. Hell I talk to people with completely twisted perceptions on a weekly basis for work , I find it entertaining more often than not

 

[zodium]

THE GREAT TRUTH REVEALED

The secret answer to life is to let someone else care about stupid arbitrary stuff like religion and philosophy and just focus on big chillin'. Millenia of evidence points to the fact that someone else will do the job quite well i.e. needlessly waste tons of time on it for no reason or result.

 

[misin]

I cant say that i'm a religious scholar or anything... on the contrary actuaully, but when i do find something i dont know about i make an effort to find it out. I've been around the world and met many different people, i also used to hang out on religious chat rooms. I like to discuss everything i dont know about and like to inform people of what they dont know about. Hell, i've even discussed lesbianism with zaira syduck: (Something my religion punishes by death... Please dont sidetrack on this one)

The beggining of this post posted some misinformation about Muslims and i simply corrected that. I didn't mean to make a shot at the athiests, i was just challenging them, and everyone else, to at least learn about the religions they generalize because all they know is christianity and maybe a little buddism.

Like i said before i dont care what you are, as long as you've chosen that smartly.

 

[JayelleNephilim]

because all they know is christianity

That's debatable. Most (including those who claim to be christians) use the term so loosely they don't even know what it really means, heh.

 

[Aneas]

Like i said before i dont care what you are, as long as you've chosen that smartly.

For the record, there is no way to choose your religion "smartly". It's all about faith, and any possible supporting evidence is often just as easily discounted by cynics as it is embraced by believers. I've always felt that, in the end, basing such beliefs merely on what can be proven by the limited knowledge mankind possesses is not a very wise idea.

 

[Aneas]

My setiments exactly. Truth does not need to be defended. That is why I no longer debate religion.

"Truth" is only as infallible as our limited level of awareness. I have absolutely zero doubt that we, as humans, have barely scratched the surface of truly understanding the nature of things. In that respect, science is no more reliable than spirituality. After all, we once had what we felt was all the evidence we needed to prove that the sun revolved around the earth.

Education seems to breed closed-mindedness for some reason. I would think it would serve to open the mind, instead.

 

[JayelleNephilim]

I was referring to John 14:6 when I used the word Truth.

 

[Puella]

Education seems to breed closed-mindedness for some reason. I would think it would serve to open the mind, instead.

I wouldn't say that education breeds closed mindedness. Education is neutral, and should not be used as a tool by theists or non-theists to promote their own beliefs.

I think what breeds closed mindedness in our society is relativism. The belief that truth is a relative phenomenon and that my truths are just as good as your truths. (for the record, this is bullshit). I am speaking from an American perspective, but from what I understand, most other countries are just as awash with relativism as America, and both theists and non-theists everywhere seem to be leaning hard on relativistic ideas and morals.

The problem with relativism is that it claims to give people more of an open mind because you are free from any structure of truth or morals laid down by people before you. What actually happens is that if someone begins to believe that no actual truth exists, then every thought and opinion of that person automatically becomes correct in their mind. Also, any thoughts and opinions of other people automatically come across as that person trying to push their ideas onto me.

So, while relativism claims to have an open mind, and claims to be open to all other peoples beliefs, it leads straight towards not accepting anyones beliefs and blatant hating of anyone who does not agree with you.

Like it or not, relativism is a poison that I am guessing most, if not all, of the people posting here subscribe to to some extent (I myself am guilty of relativistic thought, although I try to learn and correct myself where possible). Unless people treat truth as objective reality, no progress can be made in actually finding objective truths, and no progress can be made toward accepting true beliefs in society.



On another note, I'd also like to point out that the debate here seems to go along the lines of science v. religion. Personally, my religion has never interfered with my science. Faith cannot contradict reason. Faith in something that reason proves is false is insanity, and faith in something that reason proves is true is no longer faith, but truth. Faith and reason coexist, with faith always giving a reason for more observation and study, and reason constantly sharpening faith through more understanding of material reality.

 

[Wiz]

I didn't say you were lazy because you disbelieve. Thats all up to you. I said you're lazy because you haven't dont your research, sir.

Again theres a difference between forcing belief on people and just enlightening them on something they have no knowledge about. This is why religious fanatics love religious chat so much. Because there is so much that people dont know. This is also why scientists get a little crazy when talking to people who dont know about it... simply because its fulfilling to teach others things they dont yet know.

I dont care if you become muslim or christian or whatever, i do care if you make that choice before looking into your options and doing some research (making you neglegant-maybe i could use neglegant instead of lazy?)

Maybe you're just afraid of the truth? (hahahahah)

What is this research I "don't have done", buddy? I've read the fairy tales in the bible and the quran both, and plenty of others from other religions. Am I supposed to pick the least insane and inconsistent one now or something?

 

[Wiz]

"Truth" is only as infallible as our limited level of awareness. I have absolutely zero doubt that we, as humans, have barely scratched the surface of truly understanding the nature of things. In that respect, science is no more reliable than spirituality. After all, we once had what we felt was all the evidence we needed to prove that the sun revolved around the earth.

Education seems to breed closed-mindedness for some reason. I would think it would serve to open the mind, instead.

No it doesn't. Science is way more reliable than spirituality. I loathe this equivalence fallacy. Get this into your head:

Facts derived from science science are right a lot of times when put to the test
Facts derived from religion have never ever been right when put to the test

Which of these two is the most reliable? You can't understand "the nature of things" by making shit up and putting it in a holy book.

 

[Aneas]

No it doesn't. Science is way more reliable than spirituality. I loathe this equivalence fallacy. Get this into your head:

Facts derived from science science are right a lot of times when put to the test
Facts derived from religion have never ever been right when put to the test

Which of these two is the most reliable? You can't understand "the nature of things" by making shit up and putting it in a holy book.

Consider these "tests" you mention. They are based solely on what we view as fact through our limited sensory perception. Based on this perception, we make assumptions and work to prove them. Next consider that our limited perceptions only afford us a fraction of the actual data upon which to base our proofs. We can come to conclusions that make perfect sense and appear to bear out through our limited means of testing, while still being incorrect.

The difference? We've been unable to produce enough "reliable" data where spirituality is concerned for it to even be considered a legitimate concept by those who base their beliefs on "facts", as spirituality is not a science. It is intangible and subject to nothing we can measure or reproduce. Discounting it is akin to deciding that nothing that we don't understand or can't explain or even describe could ever exist.

I like the one particular scene from the movie, "Contact" (from memory):

Did you love your father?

Yes. Of course.

Prove it.

Just because you can't prove it, doesn't make it an untruth.

Also for the record, The Bible is not meant to be taken literally. It is a collection of real accounts from the perspectives of many different people told through narrative, metaphor and imagery, just like many other forms of literary art. The parables are there to learn from and live by, but, for example, the world is most certainly more than five thousand years old.

Still, I do believe that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and no differences in that regard have any effect on my attitudes or impressions toward those who don't share my own.

 

[Elysium]

Also for the record, The Bible is not meant to be taken literally.

Tell that to the evangelicals please.