melee vs casters

Boehm

Boehm

Dalayan Elder
fuwok said:
Wizards, the perennial picture of why melee damage is always better than magical damage. Physical scaling crushes direct damage.
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Just picking this out to iterate it and to point out that every end gamish guild except FWF has stacked melee. I've seen a lot of casters just die on a damage spike from full health because they didn't have a million $ charm.

I scarely saw any melee have this issue unless their healer was afk/high. I will also point out this especially relates to rangers who have no business doing wizard-like damage;
- with vastly higher mitigation/avoidance,
- a far better class ac conversion,
- Far higher HE in their HEM,
- Not restricted by a DPS limiting mechanic,
- A ranged dps mechanic, (the reason casters have lower above)
- significant self heals - which only one of the casters gets

What is the fucking downside of rangers, other then 90% of them being idiots?

This obtains with pure melee since the second they hit 100% of caster dps
there is no reason to bring much higher maintenance casters. And casters get benched again right after the once-in-a-blue-moon, mitigated physical damage fight is over, if the guild just doesn't elect to"power through". As dead dps ain't dps.

Not in fwf, but we burned through a shit-ton of healers, killing what 7-8 guilds in the process?
 
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Honestly the only melee dps thats out of line is probably rangers, the rest of them parse substantially lower than a caster on tier, regardless of the mitigation involved. Im pretty sure thats the trade for being less damage absorbant? I could be wrong, I have no clue what this game is suppose to be these days.
 
Last time I saw consistent parses classes looked pretty good other than necros just having been nerfed and thus being bad. Necros got some buffs since then, so idk how well they parse now.

Some fights are AE/PS intensive and meeles are better just because they need less healing.

Some fights have ranged-favoring mechanics and casters end up being better.

I thought there was a big problem from like t5 to t9, when it just seemed like meeles did as much or more dps than a caster, but while meeles get weapon upgrades, casters got a LOT more damage through iksith tomes than meeles did, so it seems to kind of balance out.

One thing that is maybe worth noting is that a meele can get gear, a 200k charm, 5 CoP, and 2 striking tomes and they do solid dps. A caster needs gear, a 1.2m charm, 5CoP, 2critevo, 2mind, 4-8elemental damage tomes to do solid dps. Casters benefit a lot more from vah as well. So, it kinda seems like in order to get ahead of meele dps we have to sink a lot more time into our characters, and without all those advantages we are just similar dps that is way harder to keep alive. I dont know or think that this is "wrong", its just different. I think the best thing that can happen is to keep looking at dps parses across the tiers and identify areas where certain classes are either lacking or too far ahead, and find a way to change that.

Its a fragile balance, right after AoD and necro nerfs happened, FWF barely had enough dps to beat Rujik, which is a fight we had been doing (and farming harder mobs) for months. IDK how things look right now, but at that point in time Im 80% sure it would have been impossible for a new guild to do the fight without assuming they have 18 vah backs, supremes, and 40+tomes, full 43 weapons/loot, etc
 
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Yes, caster HP is really awful to the point where a certain enchanter with "only" a 228k charm but otherwise geared to the point an equivalent melee would be more than acceptable was still not geared enough to not get one shotted by a high end thing recently. Legit thread but no idea how you'd fix it without just putting more hp on caster gear which I guess no one wants to do because I'm fairly sure I've seen threads like this pop up before?
 
Silosobi said:
One thing that is maybe worth noting is that a meele can get gear, a 200k charm, 5 CoP, and 2 striking tomes and they do solid dps. A caster needs gear, a 1.2m charm, 5CoP, 2critevo, 2mind, 4-8elemental damage tomes to do solid dps. Casters benefit a lot more from vah as well. So, it kinda seems like in order to get ahead of meele dps we have to sink a lot more time into our characters, and without all those advantages we are just similar dps that is way harder to keep alive. I dont know or think that this is "wrong", its just different. I think the best thing that can happen is to keep looking at dps parses across the tiers and identify areas where certain classes are either lacking or too far ahead, and find a way to change that.
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This is making my point that because of the higher maintenance costs of casters they require being obviously, in your example at least a tier, better then melee to have relative value.
 
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Zapple said:
Legit thread but no idea how you'd fix it without just putting more hp on caster gear which I guess no one wants to do because I'm fairly sure I've seen threads like this pop up before?
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Well at the very high end, the damage a caster takes on spikes is greater then their health pool if they do not have a million charm. This belies the dev assertion that a million charm is not a requirement for the high end.

So they can ignore it if they want, but I'm going to still bring it up.
 
caster hp is indeed a big problem at mid-high tier, but ends up alleviating itself at the very top end

I don't really think rangers are broken, I think they are very good right now, but they still have no burst and suck on high ac mobs. my ranger can do a consistent 800ish dps, which is nothing fantastic
 
Boehm said:
Well at the very high end, the damage a caster takes on spikes is greater then their health pool if they do not have a million charm. This belies the dev assertion that a million charm is not a requirement for the high end.
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Which dev's content?
 
Anyway there seem to be two issues mish-mashed together here. I'd be much more inclined to look at the damage scaling issue than raid survivability.

Trying to balance a fits-and-starts method (getting new spells and very limited scaling from items) versus a much cleaner scaling from weapon ratios is dumb and always has been, especially since there are very few DPS spells gained in the course of the raid game. But it's hard to just ditch Focus Effects in favor of weapon ratio-like scaling for spells because of all the other things that have to be considered, like base damage and resist adjusts and element etc.

Not sure I see I good way out of that without completely remaking how damaging spells work.
 
Actually forget I said anything, already know that won't go anywhere. We're stuck with basic assumptions about how classes work just like we're stuck with charms and tomes.
 
Boehm said:
Just picking this out to iterate it and to point out that every end gamish guild except FWF has stacked melee. I've seen a lot of casters just die on a damage spike from full health because they didn't have a million $ charm.

I scarely saw any melee have this issue unless their healer was afk/high. I will also point out this especially relates to rangers who have no business doing wizard-like damage;
- with vastly higher mitigation/avoidance,
- a far better class ac conversion,
- Far higher HE in their HEM,
- Not restricted by a DPS limiting mechanic,
- A ranged dps mechanic, (the reason casters have lower above)
- significant self heals - which only one of the casters gets

What is the fucking downside of rangers, other then 90% of them being idiots?

This obtains with pure melee since the second they hit 100% of caster dps
there is no reason to bring much higher maintenance casters. And casters get benched again right after the once-in-a-blue-moon, mitigated physical damage fight is over, if the guild just doesn't elect to"power through". As dead dps ain't dps.

Not in fwf, but we burned through a shit-ton of healers, killing what 7-8 guilds in the process?
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AMEN to this
 
I find it funny that this post is being made by someone who hasn't logged into the game in almost 6 months, fueled by a random comment from Fuwok.

Anyhow FWF hasn't raided in a very long time. Perhaps necros are better, perhaps not. I don't think anyone of us (members of FWF) know for sure.

Look back at old DPS:

Melee tend to do a bit better on Warchief Rujik then casters. I would guess this is simply because the fight is long and casters might run oom fast if they don't hold back.

Even still, on our 3/18 Rujik kill Velleity was #2 with 1010 dps and the closest melee dps to him was 6th with 730 dps. This isn't super common but casters still do well on the fight.

I really don't even want to talk about Caster DPS vs Melee DPS on Taeshlin, The Fallen Guardian. I'm sure you know that will only hurt your case.

On the last Blazewind I found (didn't look that hard) was on 2/27 and top 3 dps were all casters and 4th was me. 1153 dps Caster (1st) vs 912 dps Melee(4th).
 
Are you talking about the vah back that was 100% worthless for Rangers until it was "nerfed". I guess its cool it adds 250 atk now for 5 ticks but I'm sure its still far better on a caster.

Also I only picked the fights I did because I was lazy and they were on the top of the boards.

EDIT: I think I did 1400 dps on a fight once? Amazing retort when casters are doing almost 2000 DPS on some fights.
 
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Kedrin said:
Are you talking about the vah back that was 100% worthless for Rangers until it was "nerfed". I guess its cool it adds 250 atk now for 5 ticks but I'm sure its still far better on a caster.

Also I only picked the fights I did because I was lazy and they were on the top of the boards.

EDIT: I think I did 1400 dps on a fight once? Amazing retort when casters are doing almost 2000 DPS on some fights.
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You mean one caster on one fight til vah back was nerfed. You've always been a lying shitbag. Oh wait it could the other item that got nerfed, but whatever.
 
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Vah back was changed sometime before November 24 2011. Casters doing that much dps was on 3/26/12.

Watch out I'm a lying shitbag. Taking out the big guns and calling people names in the internet argument.
 
Noticing a high pointless bitching to potential solutions ratio in this thread. Lots of posts from the OPer but dick all for potential solutions from him. If you want people to put any thought into this you might want to stop torpedoing your own thread with bullshit and start bringing something to the table.
 
I do remember kedrin posting 1400 on one fight, but I have hit that number a lot more often when I get lucky with ultimate rate.

The issues I actually see in-game are:

Casters require more work (charms, tomes, quests) in order to maximize their potential.

Caster hp/mitigation makes them much more vulnerable to a burst of damage killing them and they require more frequent Gheals in order to stay alive in an AE fight.

WITH THAT SAID, when a caster maxes out charm/quest/exp at the end game, they do superior dps (which probably makes the fact that they die easier and require more healing justified at this point)

I don't really think any major changes are justified. Caster dps can scale with gear too simply by implementing higher tier focus effects. If anything were to be changed, I think just adding a bit more hp to caster items and/or upping base hp or hp scaling slightly might be nice to have charms not be so significant.
 
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