my 2pp

[Hatendency]

piss and stuff

forums suck for political debate, both sides, at times, said the same thing, and both sides contradicted themselves. to say that one side wins is hilarious, it was more annoying than informative. o well (why am i posting? im pissing myself off).

 

[Babs]

And could you point out exactly where I contradicted myself? Because I thought I was being pretty lucid in presenting my points, and if I wasn't, I'd like to make my points quite clear.

 

[Nurgock]

I love lamp. (thats where I stand on this important issue)




:911: :911: :911:

 

[Maros]

Do you really love lamp or are you just looking around the forums saying you love them?

 

[Gea]

<°)))o><

 

[Xanex]

i didn't read

I dont think the bill of rights is in anyway connected to the constitution,

 

[Suul]

Expressing Discent while doing nothing about it is pointless, dont email your senater... call him thats a thought its what I do, he's a nice guy down south your probably have a better bet to try getting ahold of a representative, but thats okay too, you can campaign ETC. and if you didnt vote and you could have Dont bitch <.> its not that tough Vote it takes like 20 minutes of planning and 5 minutes to do it, if you live in Oregon you can do it Via mail, Expressing Discent and Bitching are two very different things

So, why is it that you think the people out there who are vocal in the dissent aren't voting and lobbying for their issues? In my experience, it's the most vocal who are the most active in supporting their causes.

I agree, but also from what I've seen... the most F'd up people tend to be the most vocal.

 

[Babs]

Expressing Discent while doing nothing about it is pointless, dont email your senater... call him thats a thought its what I do, he's a nice guy down south your probably have a better bet to try getting ahold of a representative, but thats okay too, you can campaign ETC. and if you didnt vote and you could have Dont bitch <.> its not that tough Vote it takes like 20 minutes of planning and 5 minutes to do it, if you live in Oregon you can do it Via mail, Expressing Discent and Bitching are two very different things

So, why is it that you think the people out there who are vocal in the dissent aren't voting and lobbying for their issues? In my experience, it's the most vocal who are the most active in supporting their causes.

I agree, but also from what I've seen... the most F'd up people tend to be the most vocal.

Why thank you! I do try *grin*.

 

[Amourbien]

Hello I am new to this board, but started playing a little w SoD, any I digress.

Gaeelornie are you saying we should support a war that protected us from weapons that never existed?

Or perhaps be thankful that Bush has warded off the threat of inexpensive prescription drugs from pouring in from Canada?

This is a president that supports the troops by slashing their benefits and extending their tours in Iraq, has done more to destroy your (I am English) freedoms and civil liberties than Al-Qaeda ever had a chance to. Where his passage of "Clean Air Act" enables polluters to spew more toxins into the air and water, he claims outsourcing is good for the nation, is pro-corporation (like corporations are ever going to care for you...they just want the almighty $), spies on it's own citizens, etc etc etc.

Perhaps it would be best if we impeach and boot out those that are hurting America most. Those that stifle dissent, turning the clock backwards instead of thinking forward and proactively ergo harming your great nation.

Regards,
Nikki

 

[Babs]

Perhaps it would be best if we impeach and boot out those that are hurting America most. Those that stifle dissent, turning the clock backwards instead of thinking forward and proactively ergo harming your great nation.

Regards,
Nikki

Okay, don't take this the wrong way (especially since I agree with you), but you're not part of the "we" if you're English. Unless you're talking about impeaching your PM who supported Bush in the Iraqi war. That support certainly gave Bush the boost he needed in going forward with this.

 

[Amourbien]

Babs, I'm not an American but I do live here part of the year (own a house), so though I may not be able to vote I am entitled to the opinion that he should be booted. And I also believe Bliar should go to =) Of course nothing will happen to Bush unless the House/Senate change sides in November.
Regards,
Nikki

 

[gaeelornie]

Hello I am new to this board, but started playing a little w SoD, any I digress.

Gaeelornie are you saying we should support a war that protected us from weapons that never existed?

Or perhaps be thankful that Bush has warded off the threat of inexpensive prescription drugs from pouring in from Canada?

This is a president that supports the troops by slashing their benefits and extending their tours in Iraq, has done more to destroy your (I am English) freedoms and civil liberties than Al-Qaeda ever had a chance to. Where his passage of "Clean Air Act" enables polluters to spew more toxins into the air and water, he claims outsourcing is good for the nation, is pro-corporation (like corporations are ever going to care for you...they just want the almighty $), spies on it's own citizens, etc etc etc.

Perhaps it would be best if we impeach and boot out those that are hurting America most. Those that stifle dissent, turning the clock backwards instead of thinking forward and proactively ergo harming your great nation.

Regards,
Nikki

...

There werent weapons of mass destruction big deal, would you like to under Saddam should you be a curd? The guy needed to be taken from power, the fact that bush used an excuse that didnt shake out doesnt detract from the fact that the bastard deserved to be removed, he had the balls to do it, alot of countries joined in, and they didnt have the balls to stick around after a couple of there ppl were shot so poo on them, there was a coalition of forces at some point but the rest of the world is a bunch of pansies and for the most part have bailed on Iraq, as far as your bashing on corperations, there what makes things affordable, they are what makes the U.S. work, Teflon(R), Corian®, SentryGlas®, DuPontTM Suprel®,

http://www2.dupont.com/Directories/...Wire_Cable_Materials/Fire_Extinguishants.html
http://www2.dupont.com/Directories/...itives_Modifiers/Fluoropolymer_Additives.html
http://www2.dupont.com/Directories/en_US/Products_Services_Index/Chemicals/Lubricants.html
http://www2.dupont.com/Personal_Protection/en_US/

And,
http://www2.dupont.com/Directories/en_US/Products_Services_Index/Packaging_Materials/Resins.html
Which includes

http://www2.dupont.com/Appeel/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Bynel/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Conpol/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Crystar/en_US/

http://plastics.dupont.com/NASApp/myplastics/Mediator?id=30&locale=en_US

http://www2.dupont.com/DuPont20s/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Elvaloy/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Elvanol/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Elvax/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Nucrel/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Selar/en_US/

http://www2.dupont.com/Surlyn/en_US/
For example the immediate preceeding link can do this:
* Packaging Resins
* Molding Resins
* Golf Ball Resins
* Packaging Seals
* Films
* Molded Goods
* Cosmetics & Personal Care
* Sports & Recreation
* Foam, Sheet & Encapsulants
* Surlyn Reflections® Resins

Alesta® Advanced Technologies: Is working on DuPont Powder Coatings introduces a winning combination of powder coatings and vacuum metallization. This method produces not only an environmentally friendly product, but it is virtually stunning and durable.
Alesta® UV Powder Coating

Apply innovation with DuPont Alesta® UV Powder Coatings Technology. Alesta® UV technology lets you take advantage of low temperature cure and fast acting chemistry to coat heat-sensitive substrates quickly and evenly. And our unique 1-step process gives you faster throughput with virtually no waste.
Alesta® NIR Powder Coatings

Alesta® NIR technology increases your line speed and can melt, flow and cure in as little as 3 seconds. This technology is ideal for pre-assembled products and faster throughput.
Alesta® Acrylic Powder Coatings

DuPont Powder Coatings acrylic clear coatings are designed to meet the needs of high demanding applications requiring super-durable weather-resistance, high brilliance, top surface level and scratch-resistance.


Wow, thats just DuPont, find another big corp and do what I just did, do you thing mom and pop could come up with half that shit? DuPont probably threw Millions at EACH of those, not just for all EACH, do you think your joblow inventor could do that? as far as the clean air act, have you read the spacifics?

http://www.epa.gov/oar/caa/contents.html

http://www.epa.gov/air/oarnew.html

If, you could site some examples that'd be great as far as what bush has done to make it so ppl can polute air, cause I cant find it, Bush SR, maybe but no G.W.B. as far as enlistments and tours of duty are concerned, its a risk you take when you enlist in the U.S. Army, Airforce, Marines, or Navy, its just what happens in times of war, I'm of the opinion that the draft should be in effect (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription) because thats just the way it should be but what can I say I'm my fathers son, therefor I'm a hardcore opinionated Ass, when he was a kid if there was a hippy or a treehugger they beat the tar out of them held them down and shaved there heads and that was what was done, if a fight was broken up at school the dads drank a beer while they finished it on the lawn, thats the way it should be if a person insults me I should be able to beat the tar out of them or get the tar beaton out of me for trying it should simply be the risk you take for talking smack, so Amourbien at your next NAACP or Greenpeace meeting tell them Southeast alaska wants them to stay out of our state, and hopefully the U.S. can be more like SE AK and just make sure they dont have fuel, food, or a place to park (Boats in this case) ever again, So Amourbien you suck, your thoughts suck, if you dont like bush just say i think he's a prick, I dont like that he shoots things but if your gonna talk some smack, back it up

 

[Babs]

If, you could site some examples that'd be great as far as what bush has done to make it so ppl can polute air, cause I cant find it, Bush SR, maybe but no G.W.B. as far as enlistments and tours of duty are concerned, its a risk you take when you enlist in the U.S. Army, Airforce, Marines, or Navy, its just what happens in times of war, I'm of the opinion that the draft should be in effect (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription) because thats just the way it should be but what can I say I'm my fathers son, therefor I'm a hardcore opinionated Ass, when he was a kid if there was a hippy or a treehugger they beat the tar out of them held them down and shaved there heads and that was what was done, if a fight was broken up at school the dads drank a beer while they finished it on the lawn, thats the way it should be if a person insults me I should be able to beat the tar out of them or get the tar beaton out of me for trying it should simply be the risk you take for talking smack, so Amourbien at your next NAACP or Greenpeace meeting tell them Southeast alaska wants them to stay out of our state, and hopefully the U.S. can be more like SE AK and just make sure they dont have fuel, food, or a place to park (Boats in this case) ever again, So Amourbien you suck, your thoughts suck, if you dont like bush just say i think he's a prick, I dont like that he shoots things but if your gonna talk some smack, back it up

Ah, yes, that's how every intelligent person solves their disputes...with a fist fight. No wonder you support Bush.

 

[Xanex]

a serious question

why isn't this thread locked?

my thread was locked b/c the moderator THOUGHT discussion would devolve into something like this.

gae is obviously grossly uninformed. he is barely coherent, yet he is allowed free reign to post his ignorant hate speech.

i'd be happy to shut him down, but what's the point? born an idiot, will die an idiot.

the funniest thing is his desire for the right to beat up and be beaten up. let me tell you, in that type of society, you would be dead. if you do not believe in checking acts of violence with the rule of law, then we are not just talking about fist fights, because walking into a fight, i don't care about being fair or anything else, if you are trying to hurt me i will hurt you until you stop or are dead (whichever comes first).

that is not a working society.

but then again, he supports bush. and bush does not support the rule of law. so what else is new?




edit: additionally, someone smart said, hundreds of years ago (emphasis mine),

Nature hath made men so equal, in the faculties of body, and mind; as that though there be found one man sometimes manifestly stronger in body, or of quicker mind than another; yet when all is reckoned together, the difference between man, and man, is not so considerable, as that one man can thereupon claim to himselfe any benefit, to which another may not pretend, as well as he. For as to the strength of the body, the weakest has the strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination, or be confederacy with others, that are in the same danger with himselfe.

as hobbes points out, the "law of the jungle" mentality you employ only works with the lesser beasts. even back in the 17th century (and weapons have evolved considerably since then), it was obvious that darwin's theory didn't apply to our activities. in reality, all a person needs is the desire and the conviction to kill. people are so equal in the ability to murder one another (i.e., in their sleep) that no one is safe.

Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; No Society; and which is worst of all, continual feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish and short

you see gae, our country is borne from the rule of law. in many ways, we inherited the british common law system. without such a system of justice, which is the foundation of justification for the state, there could be no, according to hobbes, Industry, no Culture, no Navigation, no Society at all. you represent everything that is counter to the progress of civilization.

our great nation is borne on justice which allows the fair market to strive. it creates the security that prosperity is built on. without, i dare say our country would just be another failed state.

when bush openly defies the constitution, when he claims inherent Article II powers that put him above the 4th Amendment of the Bill of Rights, he is tearing apart what makes America prosper.

 

[Xanex]

question

i have a question for gae,

Q: what do you call a war where america suffers 90% of the costs and 90% of the causalties?

A: an american war.

don't start this "alot of countries joined" nonsense because the "coalition of the willing" is really just America and their lap dog Great Britain running loose on the world. to even pretend it was an international effort is the height of intellectual dishonesty. the whole foundation of the Bush Doctrine (of preemptive attacks) relies on the willingness to go it it alone.

our country acted unilaterally and now we are sad that no one wants to step up to the plate to help us fix the mess we call iraq. is anyone else surprised?

(want to see what's going on in iraq? go to www.juancole.com - an expert's blog, and i am sure juan cole will be disparaged b/c i linked it, but regardless he is considered one of the foremost experts in middle east affairs in america and offers day-to-day updates and analysis on iraq, as if anyone cared)

oh wait, why have informed discussion when we can make fun of the french. those frenchies didn't support going to war, they told us it was a mistake. HAHAHAHA (oh wait, who's laughing again? the whole world. at us. that's who)

keep on waving that flag. and don't forget to practice duct tape and duck & cover.

edit:

If, you could site some examples that'd be great as far as what bush has done to make it so ppl can polute air, cause I cant find it, Bush SR, maybe but no G.W.B

Facts About the Bush Administrations Plan to Weaken the Clean Air Act

some highlights?

By the 15th year of the Bush plan: 450,000 more tons of NOx, one million more tons of SO2, and 9.5 more tons of mercury would be allowed than under strong enforcement of existing Clean Air Act programs.

Nitrogen Oxide (NOx) is a major contributor to smog that is linked to asthma and lung disease. Current Clean Air Act programs could result in NOx pollution levels of about 1.25 million tons by 2010. But the Bush plan calls for loosening the cap on NOx pollution to 2.1 million tons by 2008 – effectively allowing 68 percent more NOx pollution.


"Clear Skies" delays the enforcement of public health standards for smog and soot until the end of 2015.

What else?

Remember when the international community, in the face of potentially (and likely) devasting results of global warming, agreed to cut emissions? yes, even Russia.

too bad the world's largest prodocer of greenhouses gases does not want to play ball. the bush whitehouse only recently acknowledged that global warming even exists (always to the benefit of polluting industries).

from the above article,

There's nothing else we can blame it on, really," says Kevin Trenberth, head of the climate analysis section at the US National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, where computer simulations produced the result. "If we don't put the changes in carbon dioxide into our models, we don't get global warming out.

"Well over 98% of scientists competent in this area would agree with that," [Thomas Graedel, an industrial ecologist at Yale University] told New Scientist.

why let a 98% consensus rate among the scientific community get in the way of industry lobbyist? the same lobbyist who essentially write our national policy

(above link is great, FOIA'd documents by Judicial Watch, a conservative watchdog group yieled an interesting email,

"If you were King, or Il Duce, what would you include in a national energy policy?" - U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Kelliher, in an email to natural gas industry lobbyist Dana Contratto, March 18, 2001.

Yes, you read that correctly - a top Department of Energy official really asked a corporate lobbyist what he would do if he were king or "Il Duce," the nickname Italians gave to Benito Mussolini.

Back to air pollution, bush still refuses to get serious about global warning. in fact, last i heard he was relying on fiction writer to give him perspective on the issue (emphasis mine):

In his new book about Mr. Bush, "Rebel in Chief: Inside the Bold and Controversial Presidency of Fred Barnes recalls a visit to the White House last year by Michael Crichton, whose 2004 best-selling novel, "State of Fear," suggests that global warming is an unproven theory and an overstated threat.

Mr. Barnes, who describes Mr. Bush as "a dissenter on the theory of global warming," writes that the president "avidly read" the novel and met the author after Karl Rove, his chief political adviser, arranged it. He says Mr. Bush and his guest "talked for an hour and were in near-total agreement."

what a great idea! who needs those stuffy academics in their ivory towers! let's just put fiction writers in the place of cabinet officials!

how about Tom Clancy for Dept. Of Homeland Defense. That's a no brainer! and i nominate Francine Pascal to Sec. of Education for her totally cool sweet valley high series!

(Bush Disses Global Warming Report -CBS's words, not mine, in case you needed another example)

yeah, let's have a discussion with Michael Crichton. Forget those other guys,

IOWA CITY, Iowa - The Bush administration is trying to stifle scientific evidence of the dangers of global warming in an effort to keep the public uninformed, a NASA scientist said Tuesday night.

“In my more than three decades in government, I have never seen anything approaching the degree to which information flow from scientists to the public has been screened and controlled as it is now,” James Hansen told a University of Iowa audience.

Hansen is director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York and has twice briefed a task force headed by Vice President Dick Cheney on global warming. He was also one of the first government scientists tasked with briefing congressional committees on the dangers of global warming, testifying as far back as the 1980s.

i hope this clears things up.


and one more link, from two days ago:

Following two recent studies on changes to Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets, NASA is touting a survey that it says confirms “climate warming is changing how much water remains locked in Earth’s largest storehouses of ice and snow.”

In a press release for the survey, NASA directly tied the changes to warming and described the survey as “the most comprehensive” ever in both regions.

..

A change in policy appears to be occurring after NASA scientist Jim Hansen complained about being silenced because of the Bush administration’s opposition to mandatory curbs on greenhouse gases that many scientists tie to global warming.

“A few months ago this press release might have been seriously edited or not approved,” Zwally said.

(one more -forreal- link, don't believe? ask the pentagon why they comissioned a study on the effects of global warming - and the scenarios were not good)

A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.

The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the few experts privy to its contents.

and to tie this into to the other theme, maybe gae will get his wish

'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.'

 

[gaeelornie]

We arent now nor ever were the only country with troops in Iraq, there were much more, yes 90% are our casualties thats called we are the last super power, we fight wars we are good at it, we are the only country with major troop deployments in Iraq cause at the time we had the political Will, and when Bush is no more the country will decide if we should stay in the war based on who they vote for, until then bitch complain have fun cause prolly its all your good at, I'm not gonna look at anyones blog because thats 1 person the French dont want to be in a war because I believe they are STILL hurting from the couple Mill Frogs killed in WW-1, as for Xanex, when a Corperation creates whats known as a "monopoly" there is a special court system that can make an Anti-Trust Suite and order the company to break up, Remember Ma Bell? and all these Baby Bells? No, I'm not ignorant nor am I unimformed Corperations are here because they need to be here its part of it, yes they get to pay lobbiests etc, but they got to where they were cause of this interesting system called "Free enterpise", they can afford to lobby, they do. wow thats really hard! lets bitch about it, why dont we redistribute the Wealth in the U.S. Bill gates doesnt need all his money, while were at it lets conquer the world and then redistribute the wealth from Orphans to Bill gates all of it, <.>, then since its not okay to be different lets all sign on for some "Sameness campaign" ever read The Giver? lets all be the same!

 

[gaeelornie]

http://www.bookrags.com/notes/giv/

If you dont know what the giver is

 

[Xanex]

hello

i reread the giver with my girlfriend when she was student teaching for fourth grade.

ask Enron how they feel about deregulation and lobbying the government.

The spending, directed to Republicans and in lesser measure to Democrats, totaled at least $1.88 million since 1998, according to an analysis this month by the National Institute on Money in State Politics.

...

"When a state would move toward opening its energy markets to competition and choice for consumers, you could pretty much count on Enron being there," says Mark Stultz, a spokesman for the Electric Power Supply Association, a Washington-based trade group that counted the company as a key member.

And the Enron team invariably arrived in force.

During the mid-'90s, after the Houston-based company and its allies failed to persuade Congress to deregulate the electrical market nationally, Enron switched its focus to California, New York, Texas, Pennsylvania and other states that were considering local moves to energy competition.

gae, you are the reason why democracies fail.

 

[gaeelornie]

...

It isnt going to fail because of gun toting crazy sonsabitches like myself

 

[gaeelornie]

You'd probably say theres no reason for us to own guns then, why not take it a step further, only certain people need vehicals, most people should be able to use mass transit, and then why do we use money wouldnt it be better if the state owned all?