Necros and you.

Xorz

Xorz

Dalayan Elder
I saw something about necros not being "great dps" vs a wizard. Instead of making necros have better dps, play a wizard. Not all robe classes are meant to be top tier dps gods like wizards. The entire game isnt about killing T13 monsters that take 10mins to kill. People are losing sight of that. Go play p99 or old live and see how root rotting and fear kiting dps is for a necro. Its shit. You have a decent pet, and fear, and snare, and good dots, and utility through the strands tome line. Play your class as intended.

Classes are fine and pretty well balanced imo. Content needs to meet the classes' intended purposes though. A wide open zone like Overthere for top tier kiting with mobs that dont summon would be cool for dru/nec/ranger etc. Or a neato dungeon where rogue hide/sneak/pickpocket matters. It seems nearly every zone/encounter worth doing requires a tank and a healer. Some of my most memorable times on live were 3 bard kite groups. Or weird group makeups that didnt even have a tank.. or lacked heals.

Tldr - Your necro isnt a wiz. Your paladin isnt a monk. Your cleric isnt a rogue. Play to your classes strengths instead of comparing your weaknesses to another classes strengths. Also, pray that Fixious makes some neat zones that play to the classes strengths.

Vartax
Ayanos
Dyrden
 
While I wouldn't go so far as to say classes are fine, and wouldn't disagree with some of the tomes definitely needing work or even implementation at all, this is true. People in this game focus WAY too much about nothing but big dps numbers. Look at me..I parsed 7th with my cleric...all you guys suck!.....Dude, your whole f-ing group died.... I remember how much it used to stress me out in the monk threads when people bitched about dps, because I fully expected everything else cool about monks to get nerfed because of it. I just agreed with Vart on something. The apocalypse must be near...
 
I never even got to ask if that necro tome the post was about applied only to necros or to anyone fighting the mobs they have dot'd. While it only affecting the Necro would make the tome seem weak if it worked for everyone that would actually be a fairly powerful tome.

There are very few classes I think are in trouble or need tweaking anymore, especially after the BST change. Necros don't put up wizard numbers but I also prefer to have them in my groups over Wizards (especially on raids) for the utility they provide. Their dots reduce damage, the act of DPS provides them an amount of survivability and their group mana return is amazing for XP/Cash/6man grind and thats not counting their recovery skills and utility on raids or the consistency of their dps.

Big numbers are great - Consistent success and enjoyment are better.
 
A says: "I think this tome would be great on a necro, yes it would improve dps".
B says: "Necro dps is fine"
A says: "Well, in my experience necro's are far behind most other dps class's, so no I don't really think their dps is fine".

A never did say "I want the same dps as the other class'". A just said "I don't think its unreasonable to ask for a better tome, since we far behind as it is".
 
A said - necros are far behind most dps classes...

Dont compare your solo/kite class to a straight dps class. Problem solved
 
For the record, I never thought that request was totally unreasonable personally. I don't play necros much ever, so I don't really feel comfortable commenting on all that. My comments above were more general. Also, I think people get way too worked up and aggressive about S&R stuff. People around here are so quick to be shitty to other people...
 
Also, DPS and parses are cool and all. But like hugh said - dps isnt everything. You'd be more useful on a raid sniping killshots and feeding your group mana than pushing that 1100 dps to 1150. It matters to wizards because thats all a wizard is. Its cool to see big numbers, sure; but playing your character to its strengths and being good at it is far more valuable
 
Hell, i know some wizards that are so obsessed with DPS, that they can push like 1800dps before they die 4mins into a 10min fight because they dont want to sacrifice 3 secs of dps for a damn Jolt. That wizard doesnt even have Jolt on his spellset. When he steals agro he tries to nuke harder. Granted he hit 1800dps over a 4min parse. But the other 6mins of everyone elses parse where 0dps happened shows him at 103dps.
 
Solo/kite class? What?

What ever, just because for example a Rogue say's "Im tired of being so far behind Ranger dps, can we please look in to the Rogue class?", they didn't ask to become Rangers.
(Even if the Rogue suggested to change one of their tomes, in to something similar to a well working Ranger mechanism...)
 
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Soloing. Kiting. Yes. Thats a necros true strength. Its how they were designed for EQ live. Or as a mana battery for the group. Not top dps
 
This doesnt make sense Alph. A rogue should never say - im so tired of being behind ranger DPS. Well, your intent is to sneak around and open locked doors and backstab things. Sneaky thief things. Not top melee dps

Just as a druid should never say - plz look into druids. We dont heal as well as clerics.

Just as a ranger should never say im so tired of not being able to sneak/hide and pick locks. Plz look into rangers
 
Xorz said:
Soloing. Kiting. Yes. Thats a necros true strength. Its how they were designed for EQ live. Or as a mana battery for the group. Not top dps
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Too bad solo/kiting in SoD is not emphasized at 65+, and there is next to nothing a character can gain from it, from a long term standpoint.
Exp? It'll max from other activities before your char is 'complete'. Cash? Meh, neither of these is mutually exclusive to solo / kite.
Where is the upside to solo/kiting? To advance end game (which is what the discussion of class tomes is centered around) it's not just about DPS, I agree. But it certainly has nothing to do with solo'ing or kiting.

Also to be clear, its not just wizards we're comparing against. Beastlords, rangers, mages....
(Now that @Daenar is gone, I can whine about this) Beastlords parse huge post change... (1700+ dps)
 
I guess we have to agree to disagree Vart.

I respect your D&D point of views, but thats not how the game works for me.

And let me re-state: I, nor any other necro that I'm aware, asked to be able to DPS like a Wizard.
 
I think the dev's need to look into mob movement dps and half the damage of dots. Its not right that Necros can kite mobs w/o repercussions.
 
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The only issue i have the "Necros shouldn't be higher dps cause utility" mentality is that in a raid setting, having 1 necro is fine, having 3 is kinda eh. in some cases guilds have to stack the highest dps classes just to have a chance at winning reasonably.

I'd think that if a high-end guild had 3 reliable wizards/Rangers/Monks that never missed raids i bet they would always have a spot cause everything would die so fast and fast easy raids are always nice (im aware that this generally doesn't happen due to low population and such). Basically it becomes a "hey why do we bring multiple Rogue/Necro when we could have another Ranger/Monk/Wizard/Beastlord?". There are many factors that determine raid roster that would prevent such things from happening but if said factors were not about id think a guild would stack the highest dps classes if available.

But as others have mentioned, im not asking Necros to be wizard tier dps or anything. i Just want our non strands class tomes to not suck ass. Making pet lifetap tome be instant mimic instead of pet casting and making Insideous Elements just something a bit better in general would be good.
 
sabuti said:
The issue lies within "classes made for utility" and "every raid encounter that matters needs maximum dps or you're handicapping yourself"
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This is the big reason why people care so much about balanced DPS numbers and why it makes balancing difficult. Utility typically does not matter on raid encounters. Rogue lockpick, Druids, monk FD splitting, necro mez/kiting, any buffs, mage summoned items, and so forth literally do not matter on a boss encounter. This causes pretty significant balancing questions. Do you balance a raid encounter around a druid healing

The issue also lies with fight mechanics and fight length favoring certain classes. Necros do really well on encounters that would typically punish certain classes. They're a great class for a 6 man encounter like Rohk or Eniva. Rohk because they do spell dps and they'll have dots ticking and pet DPS continuing when you have to do fight mechanics. Looking at the current t13 raid encounters, none of them last long enough to really make a wizard mana pool struggle (except maybe taeshlin). Most of the encounters have very little resistances, especially after debuffs. What does -200 resist adjust on everything matter when the mob has 0 resists anyways? Most of them let melees tunnel the boss. Most of them have a very consistent way to proc BPs (bp procs are an entirely different problem that need a complete rework or to just be removed from the game if you ever want to achieve "balance"), this is a HUGE dps increase for monks. Plus, necros have a bad burn phase compared to other rogues/wizards/rangers, and like I posted in the other thread when you have gear inflation shortening fight time it makes burn DPS a bigger deal.

When you have encounters that play to the strengths of certain classes, of course those classes will parse well. I don't think necromancers are a particularly bad class like some people try to claim, but the current meta and the power curve of certain classes makes them weaker at the current endgame. If they had an upgrade lich spell drop from a high tier encounter or quest it would help bump them up a bit as well. The strength of necros in earlier tiers of content is in part to their mana regen relative to their mana pool, when your mana pool scales up and your mana regen doesn't, it can become an issue. It also doesn't help that necro mana recovery is in flat amounts whereas wizards get scaling mana recovery (in the form of forbidden harvest) based on the size of their mana pool. Regardless, they should get 2 of their class tomes changed considering one of them is useless and the other is actually a detriment to your character if you complete it.

Rogues suffer a similar problem. Compared to monks/rangers/beastlords, rogues have the benefit of being 90% or more physical damage. This is mostly irrelevant when you have encounters with minimal resistances, as classes that rely more on spell damage will shine. Rogues also get the least benefit from BP procs because they don't get an ATK buff proccing BP or spell scaling for the other available procs. An easy bandaid fix for this would be adding rogues to the warped slave BP and making it "Shroud of Furious Rage" or "Tunic of Furious Rage" to be a more thematic fit for rogues. Not an elegant solution by any means but a solution nonetheless. Rogues also currently suffer from The Weapon Problem. When your best primary comes from a t11 6 man encounter and your best offhand is from a t12 encounter that is only maximum potential against one body type it makes it hard to compare to classes that get significant scaling in other areas of gear or classes that receive a weapon upgrade from t13 encounters.

TLDR; Necros shouldn't have 1 tome than nerfs them and 1 tome that is basically useless, rogues need new weapons and better BPs, many current encounters allow other classes to shine more than necros/rogues.
 
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