New bane on items.

[Dinadass]

I think they went through the effort because they wanted to fix a horribly broken function, and wanted to attempt to balance the game. My opinion is that somewhat marginalizing worn bane damage effects helps to further balance the game, and allows for a more linear upgrade path based on tier.

I agree that bane damage was broken and needed to change, and I never liked the mechanic for multiple reasons (and still think it should simply be removed). However, stacking bane damage wasn't allowing melee dps to suddenly do 50% more dps than other classes and trivialize t13 content, it was allowing melee dps to roughly match the other dps classes (surpass them in some fights, equal them in others, and having no effect or not catching them in the rest). Removing this crutch without having anything ready to replace it is a poor way to go about balancing the situation, and Slaar's post makes it sound like it's not even a high priority issue. This method of "balancing the game" has created even more imbalance than previously existed, and it doesn't sound like it will be remedied any time soon.

 

[Daffie]

I agree that bane damage was broken and needed to change, and I never liked the mechanic for multiple reasons (and still think it should simply be removed). However, stacking bane damage wasn't allowing melee dps to suddenly do 50% more dps than other classes and trivialize t13 content, it was allowing melee dps to roughly match the other dps classes (surpass them in some fights, equal them in others, and having no effect or not catching them in the rest). Removing this crutch without having anything ready to replace it is a poor way to go about balancing the situation, and Slaar's post makes it sound like it's not even a high priority issue. This method of "balancing the game" has created even more imbalance than previously existed, and it doesn't sound like it will be remedied any time soon.

I am 100% with you that it kind of sucks that a full fix wasn't put in at one time. I can't speak for the devs, but my guess is that making all those changes at one time is tough due to time constraints, lack of valid test environment with many testers, and the fact that this isn't their primary job.

It feels like the recent bane changes caused 3 or 4 new issues to arise. Maybe it would help dev/community relations to have a locked google document stickied with known open issues, priorities, and VERY loose target dates. This would let the community know what is/is not considered an issue, and maybe help to keep threads focused instead of spanning 4 different issues. I use to keep this kind of document on sharepoint for clients, and they loved it.

 

[fuwok]

Something like that might help to allay the feelings of hopelessness and despair that players sometimes have when they feel like the rug is being pulled out from under them.

Anyway, I hope it gets worked out - scaling throughout the tiers is a strange animal.

 

[Draeos]

So its been quite awhile anything going on with the higher tier items? And how bane is scaling atm?

 

[Dinadass]

So its been quite awhile anything going on with the higher tier items? And how bane is scaling atm?

I'm interested in this as well. Most of the top-5 characters I've looked through have ~2 bane items, and it's generally the same few that everyone uses. Blazewind, Taeshlin, Rujik, Sharn'ree, CMal 4.3... I'm not seeing any bane items? The entire zone of tur'ruj seems to have 4 or 5 items total with bane that I've seen. Since part of the reason behind the bane change in the first place was to cut down the number of low/mid tier items being worn by high tier characters, it seems like there still needs to be quite a few additions to the current bane list at the high end to avoid the same exact thing happening again.

 

[Anti Eh]

So its been quite awhile anything going on with the higher tier items? And how bane is scaling atm?

I can tell you Prime Warden Jenrok armor quest/drop still doesn't combine.
As for bane its still the same.

 

[Kedrin]

I can tell you Prime Warden Jenrok armor quest/drop still doesn't combine.
As for bane its still the same.

It's a very safe bet that since Marza is no longer a dev all the quests that were unfinished in OG were simply turned off. I am quite sure the person who originally gives you the quest you were working hard on to complete no longer does anything. I'm also quite sure this is the same for the Ranger / Druid sword quest. I fear that since Marza was never ablet to complete these quests, or make rewards for them they will remain undone forever since no one likes to finish other developers work.

I am sorry I wasn't able to make a helpful post replying to your post sooner. I had to make a new name to long into since my main account is banned for pointing out a bug in a "snide" way.

It's rather sad that these quests will no longer be in the game. The ranger sword quest was truly one of the few quests I have done in sod that pulled me into the lore and got me very excited for all the possibilities. I know the quest you were doing was even more time consuming then the one I was on. I am sorry all that work might have been for nothing.

 

[Dinadass]

No one is arguing that melee do lower DPS on high end mobs. The bane change was about consistency and item diversity. Melee falling behind in the highest tiers is a complex problem, spanning mana increases, fight durations, inappropriate spell resist scaling, too many caster-centric tome increases/too few melee and the desire to move combat away from just being autoattack.

Simply increasing all melee damage by X is not a good solution, given the roots of the problem. Bane was an even worse "solution"... to the point where it was not even a solution given all the periphery problems it caused.

Bane is now more balanced, does not require loot hoarding and stacking, and still gives a relatively large bonus when it is used correctly.

New refuge tome: Opus of Haste Mastery. Increases the effect of worn haste by X%. Monk/Rogue only.

Or maybe something like armor penetration, but I'm not sure how uniform mob AC is when you look at exp mobs, 6mans, raids, etc. so this might not provide much dps in some circumstances while adding too much in others.

 

[Moraelintz]

Or could make it piercing strike % chance to ignore mob ac completely.

 

[Raxton]

Yes i think some refuge pure melee archtype tomes could really help fix the low mnk rog dps post bane changes. Haste or armor pen probably both combined with the force of body change recommendation in the silence nerf thread would be needed to bring melee back to tier without making any one tome overpowered.

Additionally i like ludos idea of archtype tomes allowing melee to regain a portion of their crit againt normally uncrittable targets. Altho these are flavor / quality of life changes not affecting balance as one can bring a pally and get full crit or keep unmaking up. So just lessens the hit you take when theyre unavail.

 

[huey]

I hate to bump a thread with some of the same old questions, but are the bane changes still actively on the table at all for being finished? (if finished is even the best way to say it) I had heard (maybe it was even a front page post) that when the initial change went in, most of the higher end stuff hadn't quite been hit yet, and the wording was something like "hopefully later this week".

Items like the ear from forest gloom are kinda crippled from their old form almost into a clicky in that case, and it seems like in a lot of cases some of the lower tiered people have more bane than the highers.

I was just a part of a full clear undercity pug, and the whole time I was thinking, man, if reptile/amphibian bane drops, I'm gonna look like an asshole for rolling (on items I used to have) since I had long since destroyed most of my undercity loot well before the bane changes, and now have no bane options when I fight mobs like iksar (which are in a lot of places).

Tbh, while I do have scattered bane items, I usually don't even know what most mobs are, and either don't have a bard, ranger or whatever around to find out, or really don't want to bother these guys constantly on every new mob. One thing I'd like to suggest, is possibly giving at least monks and rogues (and maybe beasts I guess) some small mechanic like the other classes have to identify mobs since there are so many bane types (maybe replace intimidation or something idk).

And finally this post isn't so much a gripe as genuinely wondering if at least the initial filling out of bane items is still on the table? It obviously might help a tiny bit with the current dps imbalance, but honestly, personally I just don't like looking for missing bane items that aren't too awful to try to snag on pugs or backgear runs, while there are lower tier folks that actually need them outright. It kinda feels similar to the run on lower tier mobs for sagacity pieces awhile back.

 

[Dinadass]

Yeah with the current pool of bane items this statement is definitely not the case.

Bane is now more balanced, does not require loot hoarding and stacking, and still gives a relatively large bonus when it is used correctly.

If you look at what percentage of melee items from, say, Abyss have bane damage on them, and then look at the higher tiers and compare, it is very obvious that this was never finished. I don't really feel like melees should have to jump through another itemization hoop when it comes to bane damage while still worrying about regular focus effects, worn atk/crit, acumen, weapon skill mods, other DPS skill mods, etc.

Something like this

Why is attempting to make power increases happen in small increments so old content is not obsolesced "artificial"?

sounds good but the reality of the current situation is top tier items are flat out worse than previous items, which is why you see FWF healers using Spire of Sympathy instead of Cella or melee characters with plenty of t13 loot being forced to use t10 stuff instead because of bane damage or offensive skill mods.

 

[Daffie]

Tbh, while I do have scattered bane items, I usually don't even know what most mobs are, and either don't have a bard, ranger or whatever around to find out, or really don't want to bother these guys constantly on every new mob. One thing I'd like to suggest, is possibly giving at least monks and rogues (and maybe beasts I guess) some small mechanic like the other classes have to identify mobs since there are so many bane types (maybe replace intimidation or something idk).

Sounds like a good reuse of 'beg'! Turn attack off and inspect the mob closely.

Every class should be able to figure out what type of mob is in front of them by inspecting them closely...

 

[dracosf22]

Sounds like a good reuse of 'beg'! Turn attack off and inspect the mob closely.

Every class should be able to figure out what type of mob is in front of them by inspecting them closely...

You can quasi figure most mobs out using common sense if no ranger/bard is available. If everyone got this ability I want a FD song. Song: Note of Demise.

 

[Daffie]

You can quasi figure most mobs out using common sense if no ranger/bard is available. If everyone got this ability I want a FD song. Song: Note of Demise.

It was tried on live and it was called Fading Memories. I basically made monks useless. I don't think all classes being able to know, for certain, what mob type they are fighting marginalizes any class. Call me crazy.

 

[huey]

You can quasi figure most mobs out using common sense if no ranger/bard is available. If everyone got this ability I want a FD song. Song: Note of Demise.

First, I don't really agree that you can figure out most mobs with common sense. Maybe before the changes, and maybe now you can narrow it down or keep the front page post open that broke it down and and figure a lot out or get pretty close, or even memorize it, which is I guess maybe what's expected, but on the fly I disagree. Hell, the changes were live for over a week before I had to look back and realize iksar weren't covered by something like ancient race, but instead were reptile/amphibian, which I guess makes plenty of sense, but when I think of reptile/amphibian, I think of a frog out in the yard, or maybe my neighbor's pet lizard, not a scaly dude I'd talk to, lol. There are so many times someone says "mob A is a type A", and someone says, "huh, I figured it was probably a type B."

Second, well... before I give a kneejerk response, maybe the second statement had a heavy level of sarcasm?

 

[Cambrai]

I heard if you cast identify on a mob it gives the type. Maybe a use for the PoLore quest neck.

edit: Nm, it didn't work. That would be a good addition though.

 

[Dinadass]

These are the additions excluding about 25 non-dropped items, 15 augments/bounty items, and about 4 in the high tier that have yet to transfer over from old bane. Also excludes things that already had bane on them, like Idol of Manslaughter (around 10 items total), which had their bane increased to match their difficulty/tier.

Some few more things might be added to the end tiers besides that 4, but given the quality of items and the extremely small number of mobs in the "tier" as the wiki describes it, a lot of the highest current banes are going to be in Saitha and Tur Ruj.

Bane Type	    BANE DMG  	TIER

Humanoid Monster	5	4
Humanoid Monster	6	5
Humanoid Monster	6	6
Humanoid Monster	8	7
Humanoid Monster	7	7
Humanoid Monster	8	8
Humanoid Monster	8	8
Humanoid Monster	8	9
Humanoid Monster	9	9
Humanoid Monster	8	9
Humanoid Monster	10	10
Humanoid Monster	10	13



Ancient Races	4	3
Ancient Races	5	4
Ancient Races	4	4
Ancient Races	6	4
Ancient Races	5	5
Ancient Races	6	5
Ancient Races	7	6
Ancient Races	8	7
Ancient Races	7	7
Ancient Races	7	8
Ancient Races	7	8
Ancient Races	9	9
Ancient Races	9	9
Ancient Races	11	10
Ancient Races	10	11
Ancient Races	11	12
Ancient Races	11	12



Undead	4	2
Undead	5	3
Undead	4	3
Undead	6	3
Undead	5	4
Undead	6	5
Undead	6	5
Undead	5	5
Undead	7	6
Undead	7	6
Undead	6	8
Undead	9	9
Undead	8	9
Undead	11	10
Undead	10	12



Greatkin	3	2
Greatkin	3	3
Greatkin	5	3
Greatkin	3	3
Greatkin	5	3
Greatkin	6	6
Greatkin	7	6
Greatkin	7	7
Greatkin	8	8
Greatkin	11	10



Construct/Clock	4	2
Construct/Clock	7	6
Construct/Clock	8	7
Construct/Clock	7	8
Construct/Clock	8	8
Construct/Clock	10	9
Construct/Clock	9	9
Construct/Clock	10	10



Chaotic/Corrupted	4	3
Chaotic/Corrupted	6	4
Chaotic/Corrupted	5	4
Chaotic/Corrupted	5	5
Chaotic/Corrupted	6	6
Chaotic/Corrupted	6	6
Chaotic/Corrupted	7	6
Chaotic/Corrupted	7	7
Chaotic/Corrupted	8	7
Chaotic/Corrupted	8	8
Chaotic/Corrupted	9	9
Chaotic/Corrupted	11	12



Young Races	4	3
Young Races	4	3
Young Races	5	4
Young Races	5	4
Young Races	5	4
Young Races	5	5
Young Races	6	5
Young Races	7	7
Young Races	8	7
Young Races	8	8
Young Races	7	8
Young Races	8	8
Young Races	9	10



Reptiles/Amphib	5	4
Reptiles/Amphib	6	6
Reptiles/Amphib	8	8
Reptiles/Amphib	9	9
Reptiles/Amphib	10	11



Magical	4	2
Magical	4	3
Magical	4	4
Magical	5	5
Magical	5	5
Magical	5	5
Magical	6	6
Magical	6	6
Magical	10	7
Magical	8	8
Magical	9	9
Magical	9	9
Magical	7	9
Magical	10	10



Lesser Elemental	5	2
Lesser Elemental	4	3
Lesser Elemental	4	4
Lesser Elemental	6	5
Lesser Elemental	7	6
Lesser Elemental	7	7
Lesser Elemental	8	8
Lesser Elemental	9	9
Lesser Elemental	9	9
Lesser Elemental	10	10
Lesser Elemental	10	12



Nature	4	2
Nature	6	3
Nature	5	3
Nature	6	5
Nature	7	6
Nature	6	6
Nature	8	8
Nature	11	10
Nature	11	11



Insect/Arachnid	4	2
Insect/Arachnid	4	2
Insect/Arachnid	4	3
Insect/Arachnid	5	3
Insect/Arachnid	7	6
Insect/Arachnid	8	7
Insect/Arachnid	8	8



Monster	6	4
Monster	6	4
Monster	6	5
Monster	6	6
Monster	7	7
Monster	7	7
Monster	8	8
Monster	10	10
Monster	10	10



Planar Elemental	3	4
Planar Elemental	3	4
Planar Elemental	4	4
Planar Elemental	6	5
Planar Elemental	7	7
Planar Elemental	8	8
Planar Elemental	8	8
Planar Elemental	8	9
Planar Elemental	9	9
Planar Elemental	9	10
Planar Elemental	11	10



Dragonkin	5	4
Dragonkin	6	5
Dragonkin	7	7
Dragonkin	8	8
Dragonkin	11	10
Dragonkin	10	11

Tier is one factor in what got what and how much bane. Also taken into account was the quality of the item, difficulty of the mob, difficulty getting to the mob, how often that particular area was done, how thematically pleasing the bane was to the item and what sorts of mobs were being most killed in that specific "tier" of play.

Some banes may need to be fleshed out, but to say they were done completely arbitrarily and without progression is a bit insulting.

If high end bane gear is going to remain scarce for whatever reason, how about doing something like adding a NPC that lets people trade in their spires class bracer for different versions that cycle through the bane types? Having 0 or 1 options for high end items for most bane types is a pretty shitty situation.

 

[Raxton]

Here are some recommendations to add bane damage to items to make it easier and save dev time. My encounter tiers dont match the wiki, as these are the Tiers I remember things being, and I didn’t relook them all up, many of them are now a Tier lower, but that’s pretty irrelevant.

ITEM 	   TIER	  BANE TYPE	 AMOUNT
Il-Ia, Wristguard of the Patriarch	    T11	 Chaotic	                      11
Darkened Galaxy-etched Bone	            T13	  Chaotic	                      12
Golem Battle Bands                            T11	Construct/Clockwork        10
Greaves of the Vindicators	            T10	Greatkin	                       10
Loop of the Tireless	                            T12	Greatkin                  	11
Dhuro Conceal of the Assassin	    T12	Humanoid Monster            	11
Epaulets of the Inexorable Dream      T9 6m	Insect	                        10
Fel'talla, Path of the Stars        	   T13    	  Insect	                12
Scorched-wind Band	                   T13	Lesser Elemental	     12
Latent Wisp of Fury	                        T12 6m	Magical	                      11
Contempt                                  	T10 6m	Monster	                     10
Gauntlets of Roiling Rancor                 T12 6m	Monster	                      11
Grace Sleeves of the Created             T11	Nature                           10
Dhathrael, Guise of the Guardian	    T12	Nature	                      11
Earthstomping Clogs	                    T12	Nature	                      11
Robes of Corruption                         T9 6m      Nature                      	11
The Matron's Grasp                         	T13	        Nature                12
Cycyl, Girdle of Perpetual Motion 	T13	Planar Elemental	             12
Headband of Carnage	                T11	Reptile/Amph	                     11
Scales of the Fallen                   	T13 6m	Reptile/Amph	             12
Voidstep                                   	T13 6m	    Reptile/Amph	    12
Remembrance, Wrappings of the Mother	  T12	   Undead	                   12
Remembrance, Blanket of the Mother	  T12   Undead	                   12
Remembrance, Shroud of the Mother	  T12	   Undead	                   12
Grace of Sympathy                                    T12 6m	Undead	          12
Gloves of Violent Paroxysms	                   T11	Young	          10
Nightwhisper	                                       T13 6m	Young	           12

 

[mechkl]

sigh i dont know why we had to break up bane to begin with instead of just change how the numbers worked.... epic face palm