Non-non-item nerf thread

Discussion in 'Classes & Gear' started by Slaariel, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Slaariel

    Slaariel *The Only Real Life Girl Dev*

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    I just want to explain the thought process that went into this changing of seven or eight(?) key items that happened last patch and it's not all the same thing so I will discuss them each and then do a summing up at the bottom.

    - Two items had worn run speed removed from them. This is a cute idea but is not actually allowed on items just like worn enduring breath is not allowed on items (RIP Grupling Trainers). Oops I meant not allowed on non-GM items anyway.

    - Healer/Caster haste capped at 50%. This is part of designing for longevity. What is the 'end' of the game now will not be the 'end' of the game in the future. If items have 100% haste now, where are we supposed to go from there in the future? Additionally. . .

    - Healer weapons with massive group-heal procs were toned down. Combined with the huge healer haste from 3 items, these weapons basically redesigned three whole classes at once (with clerics being nearly unrecognizable). This is not acceptable from a design standpoint. If we want clerics to be able to heal exp groups without ever casting a group heal and just swinging a weapon, that should be a feature of the class at like level 1 on. This would not really be feasible. Clerics' entire spell sets are focused on casting spells to keep groups and raids alive and to replace that with auto-attacking? If a class needs a redesign, we can and will do it, but to redesign through itemization is ugly. Sorry this section is so long but I just want to add one more thing: when these must-have items exist, we have to look toward the future when they are eclipsed by other items. Then we have another 'Shaman Mask' situation where we now have to do something about this piece of former "endgame" gear and it just gets messy.

    - Casting speed boost was removed from Xi Valla (the "4.3 robe"). This robe had, effectively, casting speed increment X. When casting speed increment 9 has not been invented yet! This is a huge jump in itemization for the entire game and to have it be on an ALL/ALL item is just so out of whack with everything else. Pre-Ikisith, CSI capped out at 7 and there was already tier 11-12 loot in game. To jump to 10 in that small window is severely skewed. Plus the robe is still a great item for some classes (I did break the illusion that I thought I was fixing that was entirely my bad).

    - A Cleric DPS weapon was made to be less DPS. Again, changing a class through itemization is not really viable. We can redesign the class if we like from the ground up but to suddenly become a different thing from 1 or 2 items is not a valid route.

    - Imperceptible Bonds was changed. It will probably have more HP in the future.

    - Some items were fixed for instance the gloves Curator's Touch. This was not a nerf, but I'm mentioning it here since it was part of the same passel of changes.

    To sum up - The things that were changed were mostly to address two separate issues: First, the ill-formed idea of redesigning a class through select itemization and Second, the huge jumps in power with no middle ground and leaving little room for itemization in the future. Some probably ask why now instead of a year ago, I can answer this.

    When these items go in, SOME of them it is not apparent it will be a problem and SOME of them it is obvious there will be a problem. In NEITHER CASE are we psychic. If something appears it will be a problem, I'm always up for giving it a chance and if something does not appear to be a problem, it goes in without even that consideration. Until someone does the content and gets the loot, there is no info. When the content is done and now someone has the loot, there is STILL no info. When enough people have done the content and have the loot that we can see the true effect it has on the game, NOW we have info. NOW we can make a decision based on real-world as-the-game-is information.

    Of course, this is not ideal. But we are just three people (on average) -- we have no player-based beta testing except for to put content in the game and see what happens, using what can only be called our best guess as to how the content will play out in the long run. Our guess is never 100% correct but in most cases it is either a non-issue or close enough to the mark that we can just leave it in the past and move on. In this case, as has happened in the past and will certainly happen in the future, things were way, way off-base. If I had a time machine, I would have used it to change these items at the outset but instead I am left to bite the bullet and change them knowing that it will not be well-received but also knowing that it is necessary to ensure that content can be created meaningfully in the future.

    I'm not going to say what you can and can't talk about in this thread but I really want an answer for this question: In the absence of real beta-testing (which we can not have, ever, on so small a server) how would you guide development to stop this from happening in the future? I know it's awful to have a thing for a year and then have it change. If there were 100 people doing that content from the start instead of 20, this change would have happened a very very long time ago because the server would have hit critical info mass very quickly. But we did not have that.. we had one guild doing this content for a year, slowly. The info is slow to come in and we were slow to react to it.

    One solution is to not care about how overpowered things are ever and an equally unpalatable solution is to dev so conservatively I could do item design with a spreadsheet and say every tier slot X gets Y more hitpoints and Z more mana, every 3 tiers focus Z goes up 1. This is an awful vision for me.. I LIKE having our devs do weird things and make strange items that are off the beaten path. But if we keep falling into a place where the weird item is both a huge jump in power and also the new normal, maybe it's not worth taking the chance knowing how slowly "real-world data" is generated and how slowly it trickles back to us and how terrible it is to change items this late in the game.

    Or I could just insist that devs intentionally under-tier their loot so that most items will inevitably be buffed but that feels manipulative to me. Anyway I feel like I'm about to ramble so I'll just end by saying I knew that some of these items would probably be nerfed the second they went in but I felt the right thing to do would be to see if I was maybe wrong about that and I'm sorry the inevitable happened! It is entirely my fault, personally, that the items were released in this state and I'm sorry for any anger this mostly preventable scenario has generated.
     
  2. aardvark10k

    aardvark10k Dalayan Beginner

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  3. Nebi

    Nebi Dalayan Pious Diety

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    Honestly I think the "nerfs" were warranted and needed to happen. There were many instances when I used Zedaine where I did not have to worry about healing the group at all. I would sometimes just auto attack through and go get a soda to come back to a dead mob.

    The entire issue is the time it takes for you to act and nerf these items. Knight weapons were in game for YEARS so that became the normal. Once it because the normal it seems like its an attack on the players themselves. I think the same is happening here. Those items were in game for 1.5 years and became the standard.

    I believe you need to have some form of check and balance in the game where the designing DEV has to have an OK from another DEV which finally has to have the seal of approval from the head DEV. This will stop any finger pointing to the designing dev who just had some cool idea and can be pointed at someone else not giving enough a shit about his "dev job" to test the content.

    At the end of the day the changes suck because we were granted amazing skills and they became the norm. But then again just like you said it would be difficult to build off those items. As much as it sucks I accept them and will continue playing remembering days past.

    RIP: Knight Weapons, Healer proc weapon nerfs, Healer haste items.
     
  4. fuwok

    fuwok Dalayan Pious Diety

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    I don't think I have any of these items but I'm not happy about the nerfing of most of these items and I disagree with the rational that a class should be revamped and not just revamped with gear.

    Items that change the way your character can be played are novel, cool and fun.
     
  5. sheer1

    sheer1 Dalayan Elder

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    this is a good post slaariel that you for making this. not that the backlash would have been any different, but i think a lot of the initial ire was for the lack of some indication these changes went in.

    also, while i can understand the point of toning down these items, like fuwok said, changing a class through items can be really fun and offer a little more flexibility for class development than just an overall back end revamp. like maybe tuning an items for dps only with some detrimental effect is neat and lets players make choices instead of, new tier new item more stats. this obviously doesnt really apply to some of the items you mentioned, but just a thing to consider.

    As for the items specifically, while a nerf may have been warranted, some of these items were nerfed to an extent that they are no longer on par their rarity, or the difficulty of the content they come from. for instance, sharn ree's verdict (which eisley mentioned in the other thread) went from good caster dps weapon with a reasonable drawback which limited its use, to a toy that no one really wants anymore.
     
  6. Otcho

    Otcho Dalayan Pious Diety

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    I can understand every change here except sharnree verdict because even with my limited time playing I knew noone actually used that weapon for anything not completely trivial.
     
  7. Moraelintz

    Moraelintz Dalayan Elder

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    I agree with the previous two posters especially considering the drawbacks and rarity of the item. It nukes you and mana drains, as well as generates huge aggro.
     
  8. Emerica

    Emerica Dalayan Elder

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  9. Nwaij

    Nwaij Developer Staff Member

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    Re-read this:

     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  10. Emerica

    Emerica Dalayan Elder

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    I read it and was curious, thanks for not answering anything.
     
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  11. mapleguy30

    mapleguy30 Dalayan Beginner

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    crystalis is still pretty good but jyre sucks now
     
  12. darksabbath

    darksabbath Dalayan Master

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    He said worn run speed, not clicky run speed. Or else the (in-)famous Tboots would have to go also. (And others like them.)
     
  13. belladucte

    belladucte Dalayan Beginner

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    ...
     
  14. Emerica

    Emerica Dalayan Elder

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    There were obvious reasons why I asked this though.
    200% run clicky vs like 50% should be the start. It wasn't because I didnt notice him saying worn items. With the tweaks on upper tier items and such regardless of the worn effect, it could fall under the same catagory, thus making me curious. Telling me to re-read something and bolding the type and changing the color still doesnt really answer the question of if that is also too powerful of an effect since theres been a raging nerf hardon. It just makes me think of how helpful that just was.
     
  15. Silosobi

    Silosobi Dalayan Pious Diety

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    Some of these changes were definitely needed, namely crystalis/cella

    I had a ton of fun with runspeed on NZ Ring and the Robe, but I can understand if you guys dont want worn runspeed in game.

    My main request is that the 4.3 Robe be made more desirable for casters in some way. CSI9 seems the simplest and most in-line with how the item was. Its 1-2 tiers above when you can obtain CSI8 and its a super rare item from a really difficult mob. I spent countless hours trying to get this item alone, and was the item I was most proud of out of all my gear. I can understand it getting a nerf, but to suddenly become inferior to a number of caster BPs that are multiple tiers lower and way way way way easier and less rare is just depressing.

    Bango's arms just got way too nerfed, this one didnt make much sense, but it looks like you are already addressing that.

    As others said, sharnree's verdict is now in a really odd place, not even being as much dps as an ancient hammer. I didn't see a real problem with this item as it was, since its more of a toy for exp or stuff you are overtiered for. Maybe if you guys dont like it being a dps item, just entirely redesign it so it will become useful again in a different way?

    Thanks for working on this free game we play, I'm sorry if I was a little ranty in ooc yesterday, but some of my most prized internet possessions lost their best attributes and I was upset.
     
  16. Waldoff

    Waldoff Administrator Staff Member

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    The responses so far to this post reaffirm my faith in the playerbase.

    And humanity as a whole.
     
  17. Obscenitor

    Obscenitor Dalayan Elder

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    Welp, I would suggest not visiting Chillville then.
     
  18. Xeras

    Xeras Dalayan Adventurer

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    I can understand your rationale for changing these weapons. Having said that, I do think more itemization designed towards little quality of life perks similar to cella and crystalis for all classes would be more welcomed. After a while inflated numbers are less of a big deal and cool effects are awesome and neat to play with. I just fear that some of these changes aren't looking at it from giving the player something other than just another number upgrade.
     
  19. Malicre65

    Malicre65 Dalayan Beginner

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    How many times can you kick priest in the nuts and get away with it. Change the heal proc, not the rate woulda been a nurf, but to change everything you did was a complete brutal attack at anyone that had one.

    Have you ever played a healer for exp? Its not fun its boring as fucking hell, I did it cause it was needed and i knew if kept it up i would get cool items to make the game more fun, IMO it was alot more interesting trying to melee to help with heals to keep a grp moving longer, unless ur hunting light blues they did not heal everything or even close, it was just a buffer, it was like having a moving Celestial well thats about it. You have nurfed XP, Plat drop rates to where a person has to spend 1000+ hours doing nothing but the same old grind to get anything good, Most players dont fine the time spend / Reward ratio right. Its Easier and better xp to EXP in Kaesora than it is Citadel... Citadel is 10x harder for 1/2 the exp. You make these changes without asking the opinion of the players on the server and hope there right, this is not the way a server should be run. You use the excuse its hard to balance shit when only one guild is doing it, Thats bullshit. Its pretty simple to see if an item is op or not once a couple people have it, not wait 1.5+ years till it reachs general population and then take it away, How long will a dog chance the steak at the end of the stick before he realizes that he will never get the steak.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012
  20. Otcho

    Otcho Dalayan Pious Diety

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    hey instead of having items that set precedent why shouldn't we just make divine rage do the same thing. Then you can have your autoattack to victory exp healing without a reliance on those weapons which fuck itemization forever. Alternate edition: just give them an ammo proc item.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2012

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