Paladin agro (yes everyone knows it's horrible)

[Apros]

I really enjoy that all of your posts seem to belittle others for being so stupid that they cannot understand things. Really it is the best thing about them. Well, that and how drama filled you make not liking one of five suggestions sound because YOU cannot UNDERSTAND how there are many situations where a zealots strike would be handy... or maybe you just value one over the other and are not a total idiot like all of us on the other side of the issue who understand nothing.

I never said a Zealot strike would not be handy. HOWEVER if I have to lose self heals over it (which is your suggestion is it not), I don't want it.

I am sorry, but you truly don't understand the power of the class as many people have said in this thread. I am not trying to belittle people, but they clearly have not experimented with their spells enough to know how to do max AE and single target aggro. This topic was brought up into OOC today and some of the rotations and spells I heard people using for aggro was laughable. If I casted those spells I wouldn't have good aggro either.

Show me a mob you have problems tanking with an on tier/raid paladin and ill do it with your paladin.

 

[Daffie]

Do people even use flame of light?

I've been off line for a couple of weeks, but yeah I do. No refuge or runic 2 and it is a spell that gives agro while other stuff is down. (slow cast time though...) I think quite a few people use it, but I can't see a reason why it wouldn't be better as a zealots strike type spell with at least comparable agro to the current spell. (since you suggested it.)

 

[Tevinter]

What is the typical pre runic 2 paladin spell setup? I play r2 pallys but lets pretend this is my spellset if i played one without it.
1)Blind
2)Stun
3)AoE Blind
4)GHoT
5)AoEstun/flame of light
6)Highest level self heal spell
7)Single Target big heal
8)Taratzus
I'm no paladin master, but I've played the class quite a bit. I typically start with triple blind, single target blind multiple mobs as necessary, and using single target stun. I mash bash and patch heals in between cooldowns. I think that's close to how real paladin's play. I dont use any of the paladin AA buttons though (except LoH) b/c I am bad and lazy, but whenever I hear Apros say hes going to click them it makes me feel better so I assume they are good and work fine. It'd be cool if some other paladins posted how they do things, because the class isn't as straightforward as a wizard is.

EDIT: Giving paladin's a pre-runic2 type yaulp spell, maybe with less offensive stats and + aggression, would also be a cool thing I just thought of

 

[Atada]

Something that may also help is knowing how much threat is generated by each spell. Also, does the actual stun component of stuns add threat even even against mobs that are stun immune? And finally I assume there's zero or 1 threat generated from resisted spells included stuns and blinds.

 

[Titanas]

The issues I have with Paladins
1. We are the worst of the tank classes
2. There is 0 Reason to have 1 let alone more then 1 Paladin on a raid.
3. You can't "Play" a "Paladin" while playing a paladin. This is a tough one to explain. When you tank you don't do anything that paladins do. you are a gimp warrior while tanking.
Rotation
Blind
AOE Blind
Blind
(While Waiting for blind to drop)
AA Stun
Flame of light
AA Stun
(REPEAT) Let me tell you how awesome this cycle is and how much I feel like a Paladin while I'm tanking........ This defeats the idea of you can heal and tank at the same time!!!!! At low levels yes you can do this but any where past like T4 (AKA) the new T1 you can't do this.
4. Bad Utility over all. Yes they are good utility for a tank. but when it comes to ANY other class you are better taking them.

Any change to that rotation is welcome.

 

[Moraelintz]

The issues I have with Paladins
1. We are the worst of the tank classes
2. There is 0 Reason to have 1 let alone more then 1 Paladin on a raid.

1) While you feel this way I think and others, this is not the case. Every mob in the game has been beaten multiple times by different groups of dudes using a paladin as the MT see the exception nobody since bango has beaten T13. See ringo, bango, apros, sema, lindstrom, etc.

2) SB consistantly raids with 1-2 paladins in a raid they are great to have and can be very beneficial when played correctly. If you cannot find a good use in a raid for the second one that is bad leadership.

I agree maybe paladin aggro could be bumped up some. Aggro from self heals and ghots would be nice, but I do not think they need a revamp to be brought back in line. I think like apros stated zealot strike on heals would not be a good trade off for all of the heals. Maybe change 1 of thier self heals to that but def not all. It would add dps, but would decrease in some of the utility and usefullness that paladins have. There are just as many reasons to have a non dmg doing heal as there are having dmg added.

 

[cian2]

Rotation
Blind
AOE Blind
Blind
(While Waiting for blind to drop)
AA Stun
Flame of light
AA Stun

years ago in one of these threads wiz or someone posted that casted stuns are 750 aggro and blinds are 690 aggro, before damage and mods. with that in mind i would suggest using some casted stuns rather than AA stun, which does seemingly zero aggro. also, there isn't much reason to use flame of light over a stun - it's just a similar spell that does less aggro than a stun. flame of light should only be used on MR immune mobs, which paladins shouldn't be tanking in the first place.

 

[Titanas]

Well TBH I have never had to many issues with threat. Its been a while maybe I used stun instead of flame of light. I use AA Stun while spell gems are on CD. The only time I have issues on threat is when I'm grouped with over tiered players.

The point I was getting at is the rotation is an uncomfortable necessity. Put more agro on other paladin abilities so we don't cast dumb spells to keep threat (Blind aoeblind blind) I just want to see paladins have more use and not Gimp a raid by having more then 1 paladin.

The Role
I'm ok with having paladins 3rd tanking but make them a tank support role. something allowing us to protect the tank or other people in the raid.

Picture the paladin and his holy shield warding off a dragons fire breath from party members behind him.

The moral of the story is Paladins are a gimp class in Everquest. The only reason they had a place was because there was an unlimited number of places. Shards has a limited number of places and there is no room for this hybrid class I've accepted this and moved on.

 

[Manluas]

Just tossing two ideas around:

Give Divine Stun a tiny +aggro/threat.
What about a self-only proc from the G-Hot?

Like G-Hots fades and there is a minor chance that it triggers a self-proc, that lasts for one tick and is pure aggro.

No idea if this is in any way applicable or just a very terrible idea.

 

[Atada]

I'm ok with having paladins 3rd tanking but make them a tank support role. something allowing us to protect the tank or other people in the raid.

Warriors already do this with /shield.

I'm still just looking at something simple like making blinds unresistable to let us be able to tank high MR mobs to bring us in line with war&SK due to their unresistable threat. This would be a huge peace of mind so that we can actually chain triple blind and make grabbing agro possible.

 

[Atada]

years ago in one of these threads wiz or someone posted that casted stuns are 750 aggro and blinds are 690 aggro, before damage and mods.

Is When stuns actually stun the mob That 750 is done? Is it the same on mobs that can't be stunned?

 

[Daffie]

What is the typical pre runic 2 paladin spell setup? I play r2 pallys but lets pretend this is my spellset if i played one without it.
1)Blind
2)Stun
3)AoE Blind
4)GHoT
5)AoEstun/flame of light
6)Highest level self heal spell
7)Single Target big heal
8)Taratzus
I'm no paladin master, but I've played the class quite a bit. I typically start with triple blind, single target blind multiple mobs as necessary, and using single target stun. I mash bash and patch heals in between cooldowns. I think that's close to how real paladin's play. I dont use any of the paladin AA buttons though (except LoH) b/c I am bad and lazy, but whenever I hear Apros say hes going to click them it makes me feel better so I assume they are good and work fine. It'd be cool if some other paladins posted how they do things, because the class isn't as straightforward as a wizard is.

EDIT: Giving paladin's a pre-runic2 type yaulp spell, maybe with less offensive stats and + aggression, would also be a cool thing I just thought of

No one answered you, so for tanking pre-r2 it looks mostly like this:
1)Blind
2)Stun
3)AoE Blind
4)GHoT
5)AoEstun
6)Highest level self heal spell
7)Single Target big heal
8)flame of light

(Taratzus is a pain in the ass to get, and not everyone has it. I don't have it yet.)

 

[Daffie]

Is When stuns actually stun the mob That 750 is done? Is it the same on mobs that can't be stunned?

This is a good question. To add one more query: Do all stuns do 750 regardless of spell level? (Same question with blinds?)

Also, how much agro for each hit of the refuge spell?

 

[cian2]

Is When stuns actually stun the mob That 750 is done? Is it the same on mobs that can't be stunned?

you could probably test this pretty easily. find a stun immune mob, cast a few stuns on it, then see how easy it is for someone else to steal aggro.

not sure if level or stun duration effects it, but you could test that pretty easily too i suspect. devs of this game tend to prefer people figuring out how things work via testing if possible, from what i've seen.

 

[donfolstar3]

So how did that aggro test event pan out yesterday?

 

[Vitali]

Sema beat everyone from what I hear.

 

[taosanterior]

The highest numbers I saw on the aggro test were Sema > Kraizik > Septima > Zioni > Zorr

I'm sure there were some other people who did more but I didn't watch the entire time. Also enchanters make more aggro than mages. And wizards can make -40000 aggro in 2 minutes so if they ever die on a raid they are lying when they say they concussed enough.

And FWIW when I play a paladin my spell set is:
1) Big self heal
2) Less big self heal
3) Group HoT
4) Refuge spell
5) Stun
6) AE stun
7) AE blind
8) Blind

Depending on group set up and the zone we are in, Touch of Vitality makes its way onto the spellbar sometimes. Flame of light is bad so I don't use it.

And stuns do hold aggro in Catacombs even though undead are immune to the stun. IDK if it's a full 750 or not but they definitely work.

 

[Daffie]

you could probably test this pretty easily. find a stun immune mob, cast a few stuns on it, then see how easy it is for someone else to steal agro.

not sure if level or stun duration effects it, but you could test that pretty easily too i suspect. devs of this game tend to prefer people figuring out how things work via testing if possible, from what i've seen.

I did some minor testing to help clear up some of the questions related to stun/blind/flame of light/bash agro. I used my pally and shaman.

Relevant stats below:
Shaman - aggression -2, all AA, no wrist proc, no reactive procs, -6% spec bonus
Paladin w/o shield - aggression +7, all AA, no wrist proc, no reactive procs, 20% spec bonus
Paladin with shield - aggression +9, all AA, no wrist proc, no reactive procs, anger proc on bash, 20% spec bonus


Test format:
I would cast either Turgur's Insects or Cripple and let the mob run into melee range of the shaman. I would keep the paladin out of melee range, and then cast said spells. (Unless I was testing bash, then I would run into melee range as soon as the mob was in melee range of the shaman.)


1 cast vs. how many casts it took to get agro.
*I did each iteration below at least 5 times (some were done more like 20 times...) (Only a few runs were done with AE spells.)

Rust - Immune to stun - near zone in area (light and dark blue)
--------Stuns
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Word of the Crusader (AE)
1 turgur's/cripple - 1-2 Words of Thunder (light blue mobs 1 cast, db mobs 2 casts)
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Words of Tranquility
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Force
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Holy Might
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Stun
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Desist
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Cease
--------Blinds
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Wave of Light (AE)
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Blinding Light
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 Gleam of light (AE)
1 turgur's/cripple - 2 flash of Light
--------DD
1 turgur's/cripple - 1-2 flame of light (light blue mobs 1 cast, db mobs 2 casts)
--------Mix
1 turgur's - 1 words of tranquility + 1 cease (if cease resists it takes another cast that lands)
1 turgur's - 1 Words of tranquility + 1 flash of light
--------Bash (same result types with both cripple and turgurs)
1 turgur's - no shield: 17, miss 16, 16, 9, 15, miss, miss, miss, 57, 13, 22, 13, 15, 14... (dark blue mob - similar to all tests run with no shield)
1 turgur's - shield hits: 11, miss, 20, 13 (dark blue mob)
1 turgur's - shield hits: miss, 17, 22 (dark blue mob)
1 turgur's - shield hits: miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, 13 (light blue mob)
1 turgur's - Shield hits: 14 (light blue)
1 turgur's - Shield hits: 16, 14, 13 (dark blue mob + anger proc)
1 turgur's - Shield hits: 15 (light blue mob)


Sundered mountains - stunable - vulfwere pup huts (ultra green)
--------Blinds
1 turgur's/cripple - 15 Blinding light
--------Stuns
1 turgur's/cripple - 5 cease/5 desist/4 stun (14 total stuns)


Conclusions:
1. From testing it is 100% clear that blind has to run/overwrite before you get agro for a second blind cast. (There maybe some minor bit of agro from chain casting the same blind, but it is almost nothing. This is consistent with the way cripple works too.) This is not new info...
2. It became obvious that a resisted stun cast gives almost no agro (not to be confused with stun immune). Again, not really new information.
3. I did some testing at Eldenals Mansion zone in, where mobs can be stunned, and I believe that it does not matter if a mobs is immune to stun or not. The agro amount is relatively the same as long as the spell lands.
4. I think it is obvious that a shield is required for 'bash agro' to work. This kind of sucks since it is nice to use a 2h weapon during xp runs.
5. The agro with ultra green mobs... wtf...
6. It looks like for the most part, each stun gives similar agro with the exception of Words of Thunder being significantly more agro.
7. Flame of Light is worth casting because it gives relatively the same agro as the other agro spells (words of thunder aside) and it is unresistable.
8. I did not test how proximity to the mob affects agro.

 

[Olive]

Despite occasionally unrealistic requests and unsound logic I think this thread has provided some great ideas! Thank you for all the suggestions and requests here guys. In the end, we went with a change to aggro generation that should really help things out in the place we think it was most needed: the later tiers where dps ramps up aggro. Also a big thanks to everyone who participated in the aggro event yesterday, that provided some valuable information to tweak our change. This change will be patched in tonight. Click the link for full results and a detailed explanation.

There are some more changes under consideration for the whole aggro system with 3.0 and we may see some further tweaks in the near future. Aggro management should be a job for everyone, not just the person in the front. Tanks generate aggro, everyone else dumps and avoids it. If we wanted tanks to hold infinite aggro, that would be the case. But doing that would also remove an important and interesting dynamic from the game. That being said, we do want tanks to be able to generate it at a reliable and balanced rate. We hope this change will allow paladins more reliable aggro generation and therefore more versatility in their play style.

 

[Atada]

I just shed a tear.

Thank you so much for help and understanding the issue brought forward. This Is an exciting day not just for Paladins but for the DPS classes as well. Cheers!