Paladin Runic

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My argument is that the effects of the spell do not warrant the mana cost, however you play the game. I outlined the numbers, and no matter what you do with the spell, they don't add up in my opinion and experience using the spell. The other agrument is that for a *new* spell it doesn't add anything new to the class. Especially when two classes get completely new abilities that directly overwrite this. In other words this spell is too limited by
1. its mana cost
2. its being overwritten by 3 other spells with better healing
3. the small ammount and limited aplication of its defining ability (8% spell dmg reduc)

Now I understand that ikisith spells cost a lot, but really the other two Runic GHoTs are MUCH more mana efficient. I have yet to hear a counter point to this.

I also understand that there are SOME times when this spell is going to be cast but as you have stressed "When healers are too busy" to use their superior spells, this spell is still the second choice and will be overwritten when they get the chance.

8% spell damage reduction is too small to make this spell the special GHoT for AE situations. If Ikisith raids are nothing but constant 3k unresistable AE's then tell me so that I can see its application.
 
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IMO take off the healing aspect of it, keep it at 8% and make it raidwide, keep the mana cost the same.


/duck
 
[Tue Apr 20 00:00:37 2010] Prime Enchanter Sil`rel`din hit Woldaff for 8400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Apr 20 00:00:37 2010] You feel nothing. You feel everything. You feel pain. You have taken 8400 points of damage.
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leaks
 
Miffy said:
My argument is that the effects of the spell do not warrant the mana cost, however you play the game. I outlined the numbers, and no matter what you do with the spell, they don't add up in my opinion and experience using the spell. The other agrument is that for a *new* spell it doesn't add anything new to the class. Especially when two classes get completely new abilities that directly overwrite this. In other words this spell is too limited by
1. its mana cost
2. its being overwritten by 3 other spells with better healing
3. the small ammount and limited aplication of its defining ability (8% spell dmg reduc)

Now I understand that ikisith spells cost a lot, but really the other two Runic GHoTs are MUCH more mana efficient. I have yet to hear a counter point to this.

I also understand that there are SOME times when this spell is going to be cast but as you have stressed "When healers are too busy" to use their superior spells, this spell is still the second choice and will be overwritten when they get the chance.

8% spell damage reduction is too small to make this spell the special GHoT for AE situations. If Ikisith raids are nothing but constant 3k unresistable AE's then tell me so that I can see its application.
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the spell heals more hp/s than its counterpart. If you are in a situation in which you outgear the content considerably, you may not need this much healing. in this case a lesser hot may do the trick. The fact that you might not want to use this spell in every possible situation is not an argument against the efficacy of this spell.

1. you heal for more HP/second and get an additional bonus to dmg reduction. If youre doing a fight without an AE it may not be the best spell choice, just like nuking fire/cold isn't a great choice on fire/cold resistant mobs, EVEN THOUGH WIZARDS GET A RELIC/ARCHAIC FIRE/COLD NUKE OMGEEZLES
2. This is something worth looking at.
3. lol

the other 2 runic hots are on healing classes, and don't include spell damage mitigation so they aren't really comparable in terms of just heals:mana. Additionally they dont make shamans or druids as good at tanking as paladins so clearly those spells are broken as well.

if you can't understand that a paladin keeping a group up so its cleric can focus on a tank is extremely beneficial in both group and raid situations there really isn't much point in talking to you about what things are good or not. In situations where group healing is needed, 99% of the time there is an AE involved.

This spell is very good with the numbers as they stand. I don't think it should get overwritten by every other hot, because it provides a benefit no others do.
 
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Manguadi said:
The problem with this is that the best rangers do, and that's what makes them the best rangers. As with the best paladins. You don't heal because you can replace a cleric or because you're as good as a druid; you heal to prevent the cleric from having to use gheal and come off the MT, or you patch the lowest person in the group to extend the time to the next gheal.
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scary, but i agree with mang here. damn you, puppy-hater!

Otcho said:
Do you seriously not understand there are situations where those *superior hots* will not be casted because the damage is so intense it cannot be done?
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/nod. now could someone clarify please, is the spell in fact RAID-wide? because if it is, youre calculating the efficiency of mana to hp wrong. on a 6 (read, SIX) man HoT, you heal 6 (six) people for whatever mana Ethereal Cleansing requires, while this spell (if true about the raid-wide thing) heals 18 (eighteen) people for what, twice the mana cost? 18/6=3.and it adds spell reduction.

Miffy said:
Do you seriously not understand that there is 95% of the rest of the time where this spell is not as useful. All I am arguing is that in those dire times make this spell more beneficial so as it is in line with its mana cost. Even if it had 20% spell dam reduc it would still be less useful in all ways on any fight where there are not AE's AND those AE's can't be resisted and ignored. Also, if your argument is that healers are too busy healing to GHoT, there are just as many times where the paladin is too busy tanking, agroing, kiting etc to GHoT so your point is invalid.
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not to be a dick man, but there something really wrong with this. too busy tanking? wth you talking about? divine stun, ST blind. repeat. kiting is an issue with only 6 encounters like ive said before and they are in prison, thaz, frost and tot. and 4 of those you can still hot not only YOUR group, but casters/melee if necessary.

also you're forgetting that raids usually have bards, chanters and beastlords which all provide us with nice mana regen abilities, as well as FT gear. all this boosts your mana pool by easily 30%.
 
No it's just a single group heal, but man before Ikisith came out and I knew that was an 8% spell damage reduction I still thought it was good.
 
Now I understand that ikisith spells cost a lot, but really the other two Runic GHoTs are MUCH more mana efficient. I have yet to hear a counter point to this.
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No counterpoint should be necessary, a paladin is a tank class, the classes you compare with are healer-classes. No, a paladin isn't supposed to heal for as much as a cleric, druid or shaman should. No a paladin isn't supposed to heal for as much per manapoint spent as a cleric druid or shaman should, because they arent a healer class, they are a tankclass. The spell has a really short cast-time, 1.75 seconds. That isn't a lot of time to sacrifice to cast the spell. A shaman would have to spend 6 seconds casting their hot. 6 seconds is a lot of time not casting single target heals. To balance this spell in comparison to the other runics, per mana point spent, you would also have to even out the cast-time (taking paladin class faster casts into account so that the real in game casttime would be 6 seconds). Im pretty sure most paladins who can play their class would be outraged if that change happened.

This spell also is an increase in healing of over 50% from the previous spell, even if the manacost is higher. 50% is a lot, and whenever giving a tankclass an ability to selfheal for more, that increases their tanking capability. This means that the other tankclasses must be balanced to take that into account, by giving them better avoidance, more hp, equivalent spells or somehow increasing their tanking capabilities as well. If one lowered the mana cost or increased how much the spell heals (which are the points you complain about), that would have to be balanced out by likewise improving warriors and shadowknights, unless it was done in an attempt to balance out a previous imbalance. 1.75 seconds isnt a lot of time lost from building agro, running around or whatever you do, its little enough that it could always be used. With a 6k manapool and some ft you should be able to cast this spell atleast 7 times while still having mana for agro, likely more. thats 3 minutes, more than most stances last, more than some encounters take. That is pretty neat really, but lets for fun's sake assume the manacost was reduced to same as ethereal cleansing. That would pretty much mean you could keep the spell up during trash fights. At full tomes of power this would heal both you and group for a total of over 3500hp up to 7k with crits (and with a supreme charm you get 13% crit chance, making you crit a lot whereas lifetaps only get 8% increasing the effective tank gap even further), add to that your regular selfheals. Why would you even bother bringing a healer along when grouping? How would you balance that out for the other classes? would you be willing to sacrifice avoidance to become better at healing your group? The spell is great, almost op, as it is. Just be happy about it.
 
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The real zinger with this is the spell damage reduction...while healing a group, you're protecting it from 8% of an AE's damage (the emberflow tome only grants 5% and you have to kill MK for a shot at that)...so after healing increment, tomes, and the damage you prevented, you've just done a surprisingly significant amount of effective healing for 6 toons, and done it with a tank...I can think of several encounters right off the top of my head where this spell would be astoundingly useful, and at least one right now where it would prevent more damage than it heals for per tic =\

y u miffed? Don't think of this spell as Ethereal Vigrorous Scrubbing....think of it as a brand new completely different spell, kinda like Blessing of Malath v. Taraztu's...it's not an upgrade or a side grade...it's another tool for your tool-box.
 
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The only issue that I see is that the other healers are going to have to avoid using GHOT when the raid wants the spell damage reduction. Not a huge issue, but will have to be taken into consideration. I might need to add a heal message button to my paladin when I get this spell.

Glamrin said:
would you be willing to sacrifice avoidance
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No more, NO MORE. I beg you...
:)
 
Well, to say that it should be less efficient of a spell because the other two classes are healers is ok, but it is MUCH less efficient and the other two spells are also less situational (they heal more dmg from any source). Anytime there is no AE and you just want to heal your group, say when offtanking an add, rampaging, whirlwinding, phantomstrike, mental strike etc. etc. which there have been A LOT of in ikisith in my experiences you are dumping a bunch of mana for a useless spell ward. On top of this paladins have half the mana pool of pure casters so making a spell cost 800 mana is a limiting factor, which I have noticed. In other words, I want to cast this spell but then don't because it will rape my mana pool preventing me from casting my other spells. Its effect alone is already situational enough it should not be limited further by the high mana cost, OR its situational effect should be boosted so that it is THE GHoT to use on AE's.

And Glamrin this spell in no way makes paladins better tanks, on a raid the important people will have cleric HoTs on them. In a 6 man you can't keep this spell up enough and if you have a cleric hotting you it adds nothing to your tanking.
 
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Miffy said:
Well, to say that it should be less efficient of a spell because the other two classes are healers is ok, but it is MUCH less efficient and the other two spells are also less situational (they heal more dmg from any source). Anytime there is no AE and you just want to heal your group, say when offtanking an add, rampaging, whirlwinding, phantomstrike, mental strike etc. etc. which there have been A LOT of in ikisith in my experiences you are dumping a bunch of mana for a useless spell ward. On top of this paladins have half the mana pool of pure casters so making a spell cost 800 mana is a limiting factor, which I have noticed. In other words, I want to cast this spell but then don't because it will rape my mana pool preventing me from casting my other spells. Its effect alone is already situational enough it should not be limited further by the high mana cost, OR its situational effect should be boosted so that it is THE GHoT to use on AE's.

And Glamrin this spell in no way makes paladins better tanks, on a raid the important people will have cleric HoTs on them. In a 6 man you can't keep this spell up enough and if you have a cleric hotting you it adds nothing to your tanking.
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1)Actually high end knights do not have half the mana pool of casters, most of them can hit 7k without a 1.2m, you have to make some sacrifices to get flowing thought but really.

2) Your other spells cost barely any mana, this is a bullshit excuse. Wave of light is only 150 mana, Blinding light is only 80, unlike shadowknights you don't have to chain cast them so you aren't really strapped for mana like you are pretending to be.

3) It makes you a better tank in situations, your whole issue with better hots comes down to communication.
 
1. I am a high end knight, I have 5.5k mana, if by Most you mean the top 4 on the server than you don't know what most means. And 10 ft makes a big difference as well. I should not have to make major gear sacrifices simply to use a spell.

2. You clearly have not played a pally recently, blind agro was reduced and with the knight one hander nerf, and *OMG* resists I very much do chain cast all my agro spells and still lose agro from time to time. Also, check out descending judgement it is the new agro spell which also rapes the mana pool. So, I very much do run out of mana even when casting this spell only on occasion, this is why I have a problem with its balance.

3. It is not a simple comunication issue, its the fact that if I blow 800 mana while a healer is busy it is the healer's job to overwrite my spell with his better one asap. And the spell costs too much mana to simply be dedicated to one group for a whole encounter, once again you see the problem. Its not like a single target heal where the caster can duck it and save the mana, once the HoT is out there it gets overridden and the mana is wasted.
 
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Miffy said:
blind agro was reduced and with the knight one hander nerf, and *OMG* resists I very much do chain cast all my agro spells and still lose agro from time to time.
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From my experience on Fivof and Azmat, Miffy is more accurate on spamming aggro spells and manna pools for high-end knights that are not in the top 5.

Again, that makes this spell situational.
 
Yes, its mana cost makes its situational as does its effect (only good against hard hitting spells), and as does its overwriting by 3 other very similar spells. This is 3 levels of restriction which is why the spell needs to be rebalanced in some, fairly minor, way. Don't get me wrong I think this is an awesome idea for a spell, it just doesnt quite work well enough for the difficulty of acquiring it at the moment. I also think that a lot of people replying have a bit of a skewed view on what it means to play a paladin if they have not played one in an on tier encounter / 6 man in the past few months. There have been significant changes, even to my own playstyle, because of agro changes, by this I mean I must have and use mana to chain agro spells.
 
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Miffy said:
I also think that a lot of people replying have a bit of a skewed view on what it means to play a paladin if they have not played one in an on tier encounter / 6 man in the past few months. There have been significant changes, even to my own playstyle, because of agro changes, by this I mean I must have and use mana to chain agro spells.
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I did not want to end up posting this but since you seem to think this is the case and that I am unaware of what paladins do and can do, I have probably spent more time on paladins than I have my shadowknight, my experience with the class has been playing sauga from zero aa's to near finishing his tomes tier 0 to tier 9, a tier 2-11 draelyn and camille for more generals/thazeran kills than I care to admit. I've opted to play the on tier draelyn for tier 8-11 content over my shadowknight (I was a scummy toon) Oh right I also played him for 6 man content and he has had a near constant presence in my 6 man kills.

You are grossly exaggerating your mana usage, You're exaggerating your resist rates and your ability to maintain aggro. Ignoring all of this I agree the spell costs a ridiculous amount of mana because the spell is ridiculously good in many situations. You are stonewalling every other player and or devs opinion on this spell because you don't want to accept it being useful. I am going to stop replying now because its futile to try and explain things to you when you are dead set against seeing anything positive about this spell.
 
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Notpit said:
From my experience on Fivof and Azmat, Miffy is more accurate on spamming aggro spells and manna pools for high-end knights that are not in the top 5.

Again, that makes this spell situational.
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Every other ikisith spell is situational, so it makes sense the paladin one is.
 
I just wana say I love this spell, its great, I never said I didn't like the spell. The problem with this spell with regards to other runics is that this spell is situational compounded 3 times. If it had one limiting situational factor or even two I would not complain one bit. But for the hours spent to obtain it its use is too limited. If we are talking about an ideal play scenario this spell will only be cast when
1. You have lots of mana to spare
2. Real healers have not already cast GHoT
3. And AE's are going off

One or two of these is limiting enough, all I am suggesting is either a fair reduction to mana cost which would aleviate the first restriction. Or, a slight boost in spell damage reduction which would really keep it just as situational but make it worth not overwriting in some situations.
 
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ngl, in most of the situations i've seen where you would use this spell, clerics aren't going to have time to cast hots, and if the shaman is casting his ghot on anyone but the caster group he should be beaten within an inch of his life. This is already THE ghot to use on the tank group in the situations where it needs to be used. I don't want to spoil any surprises, but once you get into the content this spell appears to have been tailored to, all your doubts will vanish, the mana cost won't be an issue, overwriting won't be an issue, and you will be hero
 
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