Pallys and the lacking

B

Blubuds

Dalayan Beginner
Ok So here we go . Pally is fine agro till about teir 10 Where every other class get a a major DPS boost Even more so in teiir 11+

Other Classes get huge dps boost pally still have same agro same blind spells and the same wep basicly. This is leading to a huge lack in tanking ablity yes fine i'm an AE tank I get that. no issue on that part really I loose a few now and again and everyone just picks them off.. But when i'm taking bosses and I use Voice clicky my Incite agent legs .. My insecurity clicky and still chain stun taunt bash and loose agro is just BS .. Sorry but it's bull shit I'm doing above and beyond what my class would normaly have and I still cant hold agro.. Granted this is situational but I can think of Several encounters where MAX burn is needed and well you just can't do it with a pally tank. I'm not saying we need a huge boost to agro i'm just say PLEASE MAKE IT SCALE SOMEHOW.

It's kind sad how in normal groups of my guildees as a tank I have to use a 2 hander and aggressive stance just to kinda hold agro.

So Pally VS SK .. SK has by far best agro in game (tank wise) with Terriors and Voices they can cast. And they ARE more dps than pally just due to lifetaps and NOT HAVING TO CHAIN CAST SPELLS.

Pally VS War .. Well new stances DEF gave them a huge boost in DPS not to mention gave them rampage and tons of other cool things.


NOW lets look at TRUE pally dps

Total
--- DMG: 599623 (100%) @ 7054 dps (7054 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 526054 @6189dps

Mage + pets
--- DMG: 100294 (16,73%) @ 1223 dps (1180 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 16717 @209dps

BST + pets
--- DMG: 71886 (11,99%) @ 866 dps (846 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 3940 @49dps

Wizzy
--- DMG: 65738 (10,96%) @ 812 dps (773 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 38873 @486dps

Wizzy
--- DMG: 58732 (9,79%) @ 725 dps (691 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 18693 @234dps

Rouge
--- DMG: 58423 (9,74%) @ 704 dps (687 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 23261 @294dps

Monk
--- DMG: 53747 (8,96%) @ 672 dps (632 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 28075 @355dps

Bard
--- DMG: 41524 (6,93%) @ 494 dps (489 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 39982 @500dps

Monk
--- DMG: 37094 (6,19%) @ 458 dps (436 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 27030 @338dps

Bard
--- DMG: 33698 (5,62%) @ 401 dps (396 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 1079 @13dps

Pally
--- DMG: 24918 (4,16%) @ 300 dps (293 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 40811 @510dps

Pally boxed
--- DMG: 18460 (3,08%) @ 377 dps (217 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 77588 @1763dps
--- Special: X

Monk ALT - BOXED
--- DMG: 8570 (1,43%) @ 105 dps (101 sdps)

Shammy + pets
--- DMG: 5023 (0,84%) @ 65 dps (59 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 31329 @392dps

Ench
--- DMG: 2512 (0,42%) @ 31 dps (30 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 17500 @219dps

cleric
--- DMG to PC: 33728 @422dps

druid
--- DMG to PC: 21229 @265dps

cleric
--- DMG to PC: 15918 @199dps

cleric
--- DMG to PC: 20746 @284dps


So that is a REAL log with names removed from one of our raids .. If a dev wants more of these I Can and will provide.. But look ALL NON healers are at least 100 DPS more i'm not saying give us a huge boost .. i'm just asking to be brought up to the REST of the Classes. Give us that 100 more dps somehow.




Second lets look at Teir 10-11 Pally weps .. ( 1handers)
Gongo sword (currently useing)
Vah Sword
Mindflare

Ok going a little deeper into this ..
Vah is quested wep that requires that you have teir 6 raid keys from pon and do the events. So it requires me to do at least 3 raid events. Fine but kinda stupid that i'm competing with teir 5-6 guilds to get drops for a Teir well i'm going to call it 12 wep. But thats minor imom I can find it up. or the amount of time and TRYING to get a your guild that IS WAY WAY PAST raiding nightamre before you can finish the sword. Now i know i'm going to hear well you pick up the parts as you go and it's ment to be a long quest.. Well it wasn't in the game when I was raiding nightmare. So now lets look at what else is REQUIRED for it .. Essance set + class gem removes it from the game from anyone who dosn't have such things banked. ( not that it bothers me that much cuz I have it banked, but still kinda meh)

So thats the Vah sword I left out of bunch of Easily gettable drops that you should get along the way anyhow / Can group to get them.
But lets not forgot you have to be killing in IS before you can get the full verison of the Wep.



K so now you have gongo sword I mean it's an ok sword but there is nothing special about it really. doesn't really even compare to the Vah sword that is suppose to be on teir?





Mindflare IS also a quested wep. Just basicly it require 6 man kill and 2 raids .. rest is kinda well quested but not hard just timely. I really don't see why pally would want this over Vah sword like every.. it dosn't compaire in stats / effects + it dosn't have a heal proc.
So a wep that suppose to be an upgrade really isn't. So lets see the Teir 12 wep that suppose to be an upgrade for me isn't like at all. I don't even want it tbh it's that bad I am doing the quest mainly for the CoD event and chance at more bracers from that. past that unless NOONE IN my guild is left to turn in I probly won't ever.

K so thats it on one hader the broken Vah that you can't get unless you have stuff banked wins by far.



K lets look at 2 handers.
You have MT sword (6 man content, So idk trying to just stick to raid drops)
You have 2 hnd blunt from spires

So for on teir RAIDED 2 handers .. my options are tower of deathy cold. For what we can kill have progressed to thats it .. Now why am I bringing this up .. cuz well we have done all of spires I haven't seen Anything SLASHING other than the SK only wep .. So seems we just got passed over entirely. So idk about you Seem kinda Foolish to give us all these 2 hand slashing mods that are only good for an SK cuz there the only ones that get a raid sword.
Solution ADD a pally trash sword!

little deeper into this .. i'm guessing and this is total guess but thinking it's sk only cuz SK isn't on other IS sword but Spires is all doable before you finish out IS .. so that is kinda dumb.



K now what I think should happen to bring a pally back to a class where it is more useful in high end groups / raids.

First Add +25 more hate to SINGLE TARGET Blind .. this avoids making our AE over powered and will help with Agro.

Second relook at Ratios on SK pally swords ABOVE teir 10 maybe they can be tweaked a little to help with DPS agro on higher end group / raids

Third Add a Filler 2 hnder for pally in Spires .. it dosn't have to be great it doesn't have to be perfect just would love to see one exist from raid content.
 
dont forget

prime enchanter 2 hander
custodian 2 hander
cauldron 2 hander
fae 2 hander
mistress saitha 2 hander

when listing 2 handers

and

abyss sword and mace
gloom sword
tur ruj axe
all spires 1 handers (from iskkath, bone golem, trio, and saitha herself)

when listing 1 handers
 
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A few things:
  • About parses. you might want to use other parses, a fight that took a mere 85 seconds and has some ecrtain specific requirements isnt exactly representative.

  • Abouth 1hs progression:
    • You get farious lesser versions of the vah sword throughout the quest, so its not as if you wouldn't get intermediate rewards. And last time I checked, pre-final version was better then farhags axe, and this pattern kinda continues: vah sword is a bit better then named loot from the zones you need to kill to get the quest pieces.
    • Killing trash in a T11 zone for quest drops you need to get a T12 weapon (your estimation!) doesn't really sound out of whack to me either.
    • Vah sword final got upgraded BECAUSE it was basically a clone of sanctum sword, and given the effirt to get it vs. sanctum sword, it is well deserved. The problems originating in the removal of thaz really need a fix though.
    • The cool thing about Mindlash is that it isn't just a weapon, it's also a bracer. And last time I checked, 7% magic focus wasn't exactly common for knights, in fact there is only one other item with it that I know off. So if you don't see how this thing is amazing, IDK what to tell you really.

  • About 2hs:
    • Emberflow was made to fill the "gearholes" in sanctum loot. So ignoring Divus isn't exactly fair.
    • Never understood really why spires trash sword is SHD only as well, but what do I know.
 
Blubuds said:
Pally VS War .. Well new stances DEF gave them a huge boost in DPS not to mention gave them rampage and tons of other cool things.
Click to expand...
It also gave them less mitigation for the start up until midway through fights.

Your real problem is you're arguing about Paladin DPS in a vacuum, you're going hey look paladins do less DPS than shadowknights and you're not even touching on their healing ability. If I said hey warriors do less damage than rogues and for the sake of proving the validity of my point I just talked about the respective dps they do and nothing else sure it would seem like warrior dps should be increased.
 
paladins are amazing healers and if you are worried about your dps then i dont really know what to tell you
 
booster said:
dont forget

prime enchanter 2 hander
custodian 2 hander
cauldron 2 hander
fae 2 hander
mistress saitha 2 hander

when listing 2 handers

and

abyss sword and mace
gloom sword
tur ruj axe
all spires 1 handers (from iskkath, bone golem, trio, and saitha herself)

when listing 1 handers
Click to expand...



Well I was kinda going off what we can do kill atm .. I have Tried Fae it bugged out hard Both time I have tried it now. We were not able to enguage After doing everything correcty.. So I didn't count that cuz if I can't do that encounter I can't get loot .. and thats ia also a 6 man encounter. I was trying to keep it raid targets.

We have downed Saitha. But I have not seen the 2 hander yet .. tho it is a viable option.

Cust. isn't an option till we get it killed

Prime Enchanter is another prime example of what i'm talking about it's 2 hnd blut .. I didn't work to get +20 2 hand slashing to use a damb blunt wep ... Hello i'm a pally I should be slashing.

...
ok on to one hander ..
I Can't use the the 1hb .. I would never have agro so defeats the entire purpose.
the 1 hnd slashing from abyss .. i'm unsure if you you mean? Downing Terror?.. If so it has less AC / HPS / MANA / STATS .. the only thing cool about it is the proc. So Agro wise it might help with the hate proc . Unsure about this one would love to test that one day.

Tru Ru Axe is teir 12 and is Beyond the content hole i'm talking about .. Also havn't seen much of the zone.
Same Thing with gloom ..(not to mention again 6 man)

And what 1 hander are you talking about you list a bunch of mobs I have killed them all .. Still yet to see a SLASHING WEP that was the point .
 
Looking at that parse, with no other information to go off of, if looks like the boxed pally did more DPS than the unboxed pally, pulled aggro and died. Less DPS is a good thing, amirite?

srsfaced: if there's a real problem to be identified you'll want multiple parses of various lengths in various settings. Solo, duo, grouped, raided. Undead, living, tier appropriate across multiple tiers, etc. Paladins bring a lot to the table with their healing abilities, AE aggro capabilities, class special abilities, and the ability to let their groupmates crit undead in melee.

tl;dr - not a DPS class, not made to be balanced as one.

EDIT: Also loot is designed with trade-offs in mind in a lot of cases here. Big DPS = less survivability, big mitigation = less DPS, etc. Basing a class balance arguement around "We haven't killed the mob that drops the item that fixes this" or "We've killed the mob but it hasn't dropped for me yet" isn't the most kosher way to solicit mechanical class alterations.
 
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Ok just to clear things up it's not the DPS I care about so much as the DPS would just help the agro in the long haul that was only point I was really getting it about that.

I'm not just limiting it to slashing weapons but seems foolish to let +20 mod go to waste.

Also i'm totally admitting I missed the CoD sword entirely. That was my bad. But that wep still doesn't come close to comparing to the SK spires one.

Also I missed Experiment wep. And yes it's an option but compared to the Vah sword I would still never use it.


And to nwaij it's not the trash drops i'm worried about it's more finding the Teir 6 crap up (and yes I go Trigger everyday for it) and KEYING another guild up to do it with me so shit dosn't rot.. I'm assume your talking about the IS drops and those won't be the issue and isn't really. So I could be way off base on this.
 
maybe instead of asking yourself "why are paladins bad?" you should ask yourself "what is bango doing that i'm not, seeing as how he has tanked much harder mobs than i have?"
 
Don't complain about nightmare. its always up. and I also fixed the silk dropprate for you. Gratz.

EDIT:

PS. Also, I keep seeing things that paladins are lacking all over the place, and the only true thing we are lacking is aggro, and i am not sure whether or not runic 2 will fix that or not because i don't have it quite yet.

PPS. You should probably stop worry about DPS and get your runic 1, it's vital to your class.
 
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cian2 said:
maybe instead of asking yourself "why are paladins bad?" you should ask yourself "what is bango doing that i'm not, seeing as how he has tanked much harder mobs than i have?"
Click to expand...

wow yeah lets make this about teir 12 did you read the post at all? And I never said they were bad .. but i'm not alone on this .. I personally know 3 pallys that have rerolled other classes just cuz of the agro issue and nerfs over the years.

Anytime you want to load Bango .. ill load a monk and wizzy and LAUGH as I prove you wrong over and over and over without even trying.
 
Apros said:
Don't complain about nightmare. its always up. and I also fixed the silk dropprate for you. Gratz.
Click to expand...

it's not up now
and hasn't been in a week and as far as I know I was last one that did it .. So .. unless you know what you talking about please just dont
 
My only complaint about Paladins is that we have no unresistable aggro spells; when fighting mobs with 9 or higher MR I find myself having a difficult time holding aggro for the first 25% of a fight in a raid setting but that is why we have Shadowknights and Warriors I guess. Other than that I think the class offers exceptional utility, especially with the new murk spell.

If you are having problems with aggro then it is either your fault or the DPS that you are playing with. Judging from your posts and your reputation I am going with the former (also probably the latter too).
 
for the sk only 2hs it drops from a hig sk of kaesul so it is truly evil ok this is the rp in me who things so
but ya all in all paly s need a bit more agro for me as mag w/o jolt i some times get agro off a play wen ther is only 1 or 2 mobs and idk it is not rl esy for a mag to control agro only w/ stoping to dps
 
Blubuds said:
it's not up now
and hasn't been in a week and as far as I know I was last one that did it .. So .. unless you know what you talking about please just dont
Click to expand...

You should probably learn what you are talking about. The drops are off trash (except one), only ONE of which is a 1 week timer, the rest are 5 days or less.

Oh and I am also completely keyed for the zone, I wonder how that happened???....

I did 21 spawns of worms to get the silk. don't complain about 1 week.
 
Apros said:
You should probably learn what you are talking about. The drops are off trash (except one), only ONE of which is a 1 week timer, the rest are 5 days or less.

Oh and I am also completely keyed for the zone, I wonder how that happened???....

I did 21 spawns of worms to get the silk. don't complain about 1 week.
Click to expand...

yeah the ONE that didn't drop when I killed it that thats not from trash .. yeah that one that i'm waiting a week for and checking it constantly.


And OTHER GUILDS DO RAID NIGHTMARE .. so if they do that one event .. i'm screwed for another week ..... And i'm 99% sure thats what happened this week .. so now it's going to be 3 weeks waiting on drop .. And yeah .. Umm I don't care how long it took for your silk it wasn't hard to get. Please don't try and take Credit for ME FARMING what I needed .. k thanks ..
 
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