Reagents

[Hillary]

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=22198&highlight=reagent&page=2

Conversely removing the summon: peridot spell would also work, and act as a needed cash sink.-Cyzaine

I think a step further would be a better idea, as it stands now,

A druid apoligizes when they only have PotG

Half a group doesn't need BoA because they have RBoA

KEI Vs JB

All of these things being so easy to get casted on you whether it be through buffbots or just hitting someone with the right guild tag up, makes the lower level stuff unwanted,

I understand that many Relic buffs have such insane duration because raids last along time,

What I suggest is this, remove the summon gem lines, sure, that would be a great money sink

But go a step further and make a more expensive semi-rare droppable only set of gems or other items needed to cast Relic buffs something that isn't impossible to attain, but requires energy and effort, as a money sink with this you could require the "Rough Diomond" or w/e to be cut by a jeweler npc and he charges <Insert PP Amount here> to do it

Hell, even make them no-drop so the character casting the spell has to actually go out and get some XP instead of being perma in Athica or Sadri the real player owning him having quit years ago and is nothing other then a buffbot

The chance at loosing lots of platinum and time on reagents you have to go farm would help keep people from just botting out there toon to anyone.

A semi-rare no-drop reagent from every 55+ zone (or w/e) in the game would be a needed platinum sink (The need to have it cut by a npc that charges)

For the lower spells, maybe the same item for the higher ones could be "cut" into multiple pieces to still help mitigate buffbots and act as a platinum sink,

 

[Rari]

http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=22198&highlight=reagent&page=2
KEI Vs JB

All of these things being so easy to get casted on you whether it be through buffbots or just hitting someone with the right guild tag up, makes the lower level stuff unwanted,

I don't have much to say in reply to this post. First I will remind you that because of level restrictions, low level characters can't get buffed with these spells. And I still see plenty of people asking for KEI. Of course, as a necromancer, I don't want JB so I'm sure I'm biased.

I understand the issue you are trying to address. There have been better suggestions in the past to handle this situation and even those wouldn't work out. I wish you luck if you are looking for constructive responses, but I wouldn't bet you'll see much.

Taking away regeants from spells to add new ones is just ... well, yeah umm... Basically, reagents make playing certain classes unfun and they are often unnecessary. I don't mind the reagents associated with Necromancer spells. I keep a dozen real dots and around ten rubies (which are not summonable anyway) bagged, but i have reg con VIII and i usually have a full stack of summons when it really matters. Of course while I tend to spam my rune (the peridot req) in some cases, my rez (rubies) is situational and generally only used when duoing or, more often in my case, for raid recovery.

For some classes the requirement of reagents becomes a serious pain in the tuckuss, and I wouldn't mind seeing a review of their spells (on a spell-by-spell basis) to remove unnecessary reagent requirements. Swapping summoned reagents for farmed reagents just seems like it would compound this issue. If such a system were to be put into place, I can only image that durations would need to be extended to make up for the cost, and I'm certain that would spoil the intended effect.

For the record, the reagents page on the wiki gives a nice overview, though since only Summoned: Cat's Eye Agate has been added to the wiki as an item from the line of summoned gems it is the only summoned reagent displayed.

Anyway, I don't have the mystical solution to making buffbots less fucking awesome than they are now. And honestly since my boyfriend has an enviable collection at his (and therefore my) disposal, I don't have much personal reason to think of one. But if someone comes up with something that sounds even half good, I would be more than happy to support it or help develop it. I just haven't seen something that in the long run will work. I don't particularly like the quick-fade idea that was raised some time ago, though that was probably that closest to a solution that has been found. Maybe a buff-slot-eater ... a detrimental spell icon that would sit on your bar if your group/raid doesn't have a member of the class for any buff you had on your bar. Annoying, not game breaking. If that wasn't enough for some reason, a small penalty could be attached (very very slightly, like 1%, slower movement/cast/attack speed, cumulative for each class missing). So there, I've tried to add a constructive idea.


EDIT: Hillary, ffs, read this.

 

[Hillary]

By lower level I meant not 65+ Not something where level restrictions would come in to play

I am sure you love your buff bots as everyone on the server who has a couple does, but buffbots lead to ringers, lead to 65 Monk LFG can box pretty much anything or some just come straight out and say it, 65 Blank, can box a ringer

If people had a reason to keep there account info closer to the chest, they would, if you thought you might come back 3 months from now and find a stack of reagent that took you hours and hours to get and that cost you real money, gone, would you still be handing it out to anyone?

The solution I offer involves

updating drop tables with a new item (No idea how hard that is)

Updating maybe Jewelry merchants to charge PP for doing a hand in, You in hand X you lose X platinum and a check to make sure you actually had that platinum

Changing some buff spells


What it would do:

Make it less desirable to hand out your account info to people because you had to work for reagents

Make it less desirable to cast buffs that were created to making *raiding* easier, as I recall that was the reason given that only *raid mobs drop them* (Years ago when someone was asking why Do you have to raid for relics)

Eventually kill off buffbots or make people take them on groups, to gather the reagents

Even at a 1/100 chance of getting it in any zone that is 60+ would still supply an active character with more then enough reagents to be used practically as a non-buffbot with Relic buffs lasting as long as they do, even if you were casting it for a group 1/250 or 1/1000 per drop doesnt seem outlandish and will kill off characters who's soul purpose in SoD is to cast Raego with summoned DoTs, or JB for no reagent

And please, tell me what class has a pain in the tuckess getting there reagents

And why would the time for them need to be upped? Why should RGoA last longer because the cleric casting it had to actually be in a group/pug/map group at some point more recent then the last 5 years to cast it? With reagent conservation as it is i don't even think this would put a huge stop to buffbots farm a stack and it might last months, but at least that character got out and did something.

I think Reagents should either be made into something that has an effect on the game or totally removed they are for the most part trivialized as it stands now and serve no purpose other then to punish someone for not logging on a mage or shouting in athica for a mage to summon some dots

 

[Rorne]

I think Reagents should either be made into something that has an effect on the game or totally removed they are for the most part trivialized as it stands now and serve no purpose other then to punish someone for not logging on a mage or shouting in athica for a mage to summon some dots

So why do you keep rallying around the implementation of something that just makes people load a buff bot for aego instead of raego and adds further to the effort involved with relics compared to spells you can just walk up and buy?

Also what the hell do peridots cost now? Like 11p a piece? So full group of 6, base minimum duration of 3 hours, congratulations you have taken 1.8 platinum an hour out of the system. Seriously stop bringing up peridots as a platinum sink because it is hollow and absurd as hell.

 

[Thade]

Wall of text

The problem is reagents are -not- a fun or enjoyable mechanic and playing certain classes UN FUN. Have you played a shaman? I have to cast 3 relic buffs in every group and raid where I play thade. Using 3 reagents constantly every group is the dumbest idea I have flat out ever heard posted on this forum.

You are also forgetting the fact plenty of buffs that are vital and important aren't even relics (empower, acumen, ancient: sihala's regeneration, spiritual bliss, spiritual vigor, Sihala's Stalwart shield, DMF, Talisman of the Niklothar, Shroud of Seasons, Call of the Predator, Shiritri's ward. These all have places they are important to have soulbonded and will have a bot loaded for them).

You are literally asking to inconvenience anyone over tier four or five (or anyone who isn't a social troglodyte and can actually make friends) by making them spend more and more time to get reagents which already shouldn't exist just like half of the others.

And please, tell me what class has a pain in the tuckess getting there reagents

None. That's the point. Enchanters and beastlords would literally be spending hundreds of platinum a week just to buy reagents. That's not enjoyable, or immersive, or whatever other bullshit term people want to use for it. It's an unfun stupid mechanic which creates an unnecessary platsink which is just large enough to be a nuisance for a handful of classes while doing nothing to the rest.

Also neglecting the fact that EVERY 6 MAN ENCOUNTER IN THE GAME is balanced around you having full buffs. Every one. They would all require rebalancing to handle the fact they are now more difficult to obtain and chances are you may not even have access to some of them.

And you are literally fucking every guild who doesn't run a large enough guild roster to not have to box in certain classes. I know plenty of guilds who have had issues finding specific classes (If I remember correctly chaotic winds didn't have a mained shaman or enchanter for like 6 months, this is not an uncommon occurance) because there either aren't that many of them or the ones that are there are bad.

TL;DR. No. :hmpf:

 

[darksabbath]

Exchanging one reagent with another changes nothing. Removal of reagents helps classes dependent on them for frequent casts (ENC and BST). Plain and simple, your change only hurts a couple classes, which some guilds already have trouble finding people to main.

If I have to farm a stack of rough peridots for my Savage buff, and it still lasts only 6 minutes (base), then I will probably just stop casting it. I imagine enc's will feel the same for their runes, too. Now my savage means only something to me, and my guild's rogues, but the loss of raid-rune from the enc would make some encounters noticably harder.

 

[Hillary]

Okay, a pearl instead of a dot, make it a pearl shard or w/e 1 rough pearl = 20 pearl shards

and 6mins really? Thats just rude or removing the reagent for that spell, and others like it, what I am trying to hit on is the all of the Must have buffs that last forever, make them cost some real platinum or remove the reagent altogether

 

[Moraelintz]

I really do not like the idea or changing reagents. It is one of the perks of my class being somewhat useful. Granted I know there are a lot of pocket mages that people have just for the summons but I like feeling somewhat useful for the first 5-10 minutes while in organization for a raid summoning arrows and peridots. Help pass the time when either waiting for ppl to log in or waiting on buffs to be done.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

As everyone else has said, this would just be un-fun.

This would, imo, be a better solution to buff-bots, although would require major rebalancing of 6man content:

we toyed with the idea of removing tgb and having buffs fade when the people left the grp but it sounded mean

 

[Cyzaine]

I got it!

Remove all summon gem spells from the game.

All buffs use all gems as reagents.

You automatically use the highest gem in your inventory.

All buffs duration scale with the reagent used.

Min duration 20 minutes.

All problems solved~

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

All problems solved~

Your solution doesn't touch the issue of buff-bots, which is what the original post was directed at.

Great money sinc though.

 

[Cyzaine]

Your solution doesn't touch the issue of buff-bots, which is what the original post was directed at.

Then Problem Solved~ SOD Style!

 

[Ulandx]

As everyone else has said, this would just be un-fun.
This would, imo, be a better solution to buff-bots, although would require major rebalancing of 6man content:

Originally Posted by Slaariel
we toyed with the idea of removing tgb and having buffs fade when the people left the grp but it sounded mean

Easy solution,just dont do stuff if you dont have the appropriate group,the game is so huge
one can alway find something else to do.
Its so much more satisfying to take out stuff without outside buffs,and its already in the game
in the form of adepts.

 

[Chakekik]

Easy solution,just dont do stuff if you dont have the appropriate group,the game is so huge
one can alway find something else to do.
Its so much more satisfying to take out stuff without outside buffs,and its already in the game
in the form of adepts.

Except this logic is flawed due to the fact that if you waited until you could go with any group or had no outside buffs then the gear that dropped would be basically useless to you.

 

[Obscenitor]

Easy solution,just dont do stuff if you dont have the appropriate group,the game is so huge
one can alway find something else to do.
Its so much more satisfying to take out stuff without outside buffs,and its already in the game
in the form of adepts.

In high end 6 man content you do not have this luxury (I would argue anything above and including cmal 4). When a fight is designed around having all ideal relic buffs (won, raego, rfocus, jb etc.) even missing one of those buffs makes a huge difference.

Over the course of several high tier 6 man fights JB alone will provide 900 mana regenerated over the duration of the fight.. that is 2 big heals or 3 quick heals or 2 moon comets etc.. and you cannot bring an enchanter to the majority of high end 6 man content..

Bringing up Adepts in this type of discussion is pretty irrelevant as twinks make those fights trivial (Traekoth has been 6 manned).

 

[Thade]

I got it!

Remove all summon gem spells from the game.

All buffs use all gems as reagents.

You automatically use the highest gem in your inventory.

All buffs duration scale with the reagent used.

Min duration 20 minutes.

All problems solved~

This still doesn't solve the fact reagents for anything you need to cast regularly on a serious basis are dumb.

Reagents on spells that are supposed to be situational makes sense. It means you won't just be casting them willy-nilly. Reagents on spells you need to cast tons of times or even just a handful of times a day (IE raego) are just an inconvenience and add nothing to the game except a platsink that literally is just nuisance for a handful of classes. As much fun as farming for thirty minutes and then necking to south newport is so you can have a stack of dots for two weeks, this really ends up just being a thirty-five minute nuisance.

 

[Ulandx]

Except this logic is flawed due to the fact that if you waited until you could go with any group or had no outside buffs then the gear that dropped would be basically useless to you.

Are you saying everytime you group you get a gear upgrade ? Hard to beleive.

In high end 6 man content you do not have this luxury (I would argue anything above and including cmal 4). When a fight is designed around having all ideal relic buffs (won, raego, rfocus, jb etc.) even missing one of those buffs makes a huge difference.
Over the course of several high tier 6 man fights JB alone will provide 900 mana regenerated over the duration of the fight.. that is 2 big heals or 3 quick heals or 2 moon comets etc.. and you cannot bring an enchanter to the majority of high end 6 man content..

.

If having mana for 2 heals more really makes a difference then you're fightng too hard stuff
and should come back with better geared toons or an appropriate made up group.

 

[Thade]

Are you saying everytime you group you get a gear upgrade ? Hard to beleive.




If having mana for 2 heals more really makes a difference then you're fightng too hard stuff
and should come back with better geared toons or an appropriate made up group.

6 man encounters when they are "progression" are balanced around you finishing with very little mana - no mana. That's intended. "Fight easier" stuff is not the answer.

 

[cornelweezy]

Basically, reagents make playing certain classes unfun and they are often unnecessary

For some classes the requirement of reagents becomes a serious pain in the tuckuss

I'm not trying to be facetious or smart with you but I don't understand at all where this is coming from. Self only spells like the wizard and necromancer rune line (which also convey mana regen) require a reagent but as long as the enchanter target rune lines require a reagent, that makes sense to me. I don't have any problem with that because runes are not my primary class function although they're nice on the side, and it only takes about as long to find a mage willing to summon me a stack as it does a random person to ask me to KEI/emp/perm illusion them.

I'll just lump clerics and shamans in here too, although as these are the two most boxed classes, I can understand the frustration of having to log in a mage for dots, log it out, then log in your tank. I suppose a levelling cleric's symbols are annoying too to find stones for, but those reagents are super cheap. I usually just bought a stack or two of them when I was levelling my cleric and I never ran out before I got to the next level of stone.

If you're referring to wizard ports, I find that a pretty justifiable cost of a pearl. Really, the only reagent requirements I can think of that don't make sense are magician pet weaps of power and BST Savagery, esp considering the recharge time versus the duration.

Am I not high enough tier yet?

 

[Volkier]

I got it!

Remove all summon gem spells from the game.

All buffs use all gems as reagents.

You automatically use the highest gem in your inventory.

All buffs duration scale with the reagent used.

Min duration 20 minutes.

All problems solved~

I don't know. There are already plenty of buffs requiring gems. And also, cash-sink wise, I would argue the the current soulbinding system works just as well. That was the beauty to me in SoD - you could actively make and play a useful character without having been playing for years, having an epic geared toon, and millions of plat. Buffing your player / group / duo party once, in my opinion, should not cost hundreds of plat - as it would make the game pretty much only accessible to people who do have a stockpile of money built up.

The other problem I forsee is it is going to reduce the nices-ness of people offering buffs to other players / interacting through that. On top of it - it would be even more annoying having to
re-cast half the buffs due to someone rushing through and messing up your buff order.

It would also actively kill some buff upgrades or choices - which originally would be chosen for the sake of their duration, while at the same time

Lastly - where would that leave mages? I do like to be at least somewhat useful and help a cleric or a beastlord out with dots now and then (again, improves the whole social interaction / communication that makes SoD > live). Would those summoned gem spells be replaced with anything useful - like summonable pet armor with procs / minor effects as an example?

I would tend to argue that buff-bots are not an EXTREMELY overly used / overly common viable. It's more like "it's there if no better alternative is available". This is going by the very common /ooc "anyone have KEI? anyone have raego? any shaman buffs? casting so and so at steps" etc. If a buff bot is a naked toon with the bare minimum spells - sure - it may not be fully 'correct', but I would rather get a buff from someone who has the AA's and the equipment to extend it, soulbind it, and therefore very likely be - or have been at least an alt of an active duo. Co-incidentally, once again, the people who CAN afford to out-gear and fill with AA's their buffbots - and keep those characters specifically as buffbots - would not really be affected by the change as they would have more than enough money to 'sink' into the reagents, and from their perspective, it would actually make their buff-bots more useful (as they would be getting full duration on highest costing gems). It would just make people who haven't played for years more useless in comparison.

Don't know what the solution to such would be to be honest, other than what is already implemented (and in my opinion works well) - ie. two accounts logged on max, soulbond timers etc. I don't know - maybe I'm just being oblivious to the problem, but from what I've seen, even my cleric's non-relic and poorly extended Aego seems in a significantly high demand every time I group with someone (as well as being approached in town by random people)