Riposte change

Discussion in 'Retirement Home' started by j883376, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Imnaki

    Imnaki Dalayan Beginner

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    This is seriously at risk of completely going off-topic so let's get back on track.

    We all agree that there may be some weapons that are unbalanced when factoring in the riposte-proc scenario - i.e. Spirit-Harvest - so let's use that as an example.

    Spirit-Harvest procs Spirit Tap (Nec 29) 100% of the time.

    Why then can't we change the proc to like Lifespike (Nec 4 - 10hp per proc) or some similar level?

    Make it impossible to sustain survivability by simply depending on its procs on light blue or blue mobs but keep a bit of its utility.

    If there are other weapons of similar situation, then identify and fix them, instead of deciding to change a mechanic that affects all classes that can riposte - regardless if they would find themselves in a position to take advantage of this.
     
  2. fuwok

    fuwok Dalayan Pious Diety

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    Someone else was making this point earlier in the thread, and I agree. Player power greatly increased as a result of the release of ikisith (tomes/high end gear/overall higher player stats, etc.) Based on the continuous nerfing of high end gear and high end zones, it seems like that was all not intended. It sucks from a player's point of view because they played the awesome (and prohibited) version of sod for a year or two. That's just an aside about why the players are disheartened about having their cool toys taken away after a long time of using them in their "broken" state, which was their "intended" state. It is a hard pill to swallow that the staff did not know or didn't care, but it is what it is. Our choice is to believe the staff or #oldcountryway basically.

    Players wouldn't farm the low end zones to the extent they do if the high end zones weren't nerfed as harshly (looking at you, citadel). The other thing is that high end tanks are invincible, seriously. This weapon may have helped the devs realize it, but monsters like cractees or the undead cave (nerfed?) or any low tier xp zone seriously cannot harm a tank with overcap damage reduction and high ac. I can run fuwok from the entrance of MielC to the froglok bard area and back in a huge circuit, often sometimes also going up to that golem spawn at what used to be the zone in on live, all the while being hit in the back (ie not getting any ripostes/lifetaps/whatever) in regular stance and then ride out the entire resultant mêlée with a relic hot (or probably less) even without the scythe. The damage from mobs that are 12-13 tiers below you looks like this:
    1
    absorb
    absorb
    absorb
    absorb
    absorb
    absorb
    absorb
    riposte
    dodge
    absorb
    absorb
    absorb
    1
    absorb
    riposte
    dodge

    ad infinitem.

    While this is amusing for at least 5 minutes in the same way that playing doom2 with godmode is amusing, it really is indicative of a bunch of conflicting gameplay principles:

    1. High end players should endlessly farm low tier content to generate money (and sometimes xp) and for no other purpose.
    2. High end xp/money is overnerfed (causing 1).

    Basically, to put this in dungeons and dragons terms, 500d2 pp in a low end zone vs. 1d1000 pp in a high end zone, with lower risk in the lower end zone means that low end is going to be picked every time.

    3. There's a point with ac/hp/resists that mobs cannot harm you. This is why mobs at higher tiers have insane atk, tons of unresistable spells, do mêlée strikes that ignore armor, do a % of your hp, and/or hit everyone in the raid.

    4. Super high tier chars shouldn't walk around in great fear of mortality from wandering trash mobs. They are godlike characters.

    Anyway, the scythe is the straw that broke the camel's back for some people. The players liked the increase in power and their characters branching out some as a result of ikisith. The idea that raiding for hours (to put it very mildly, more like 4 hours per day plus another 4 of xping/6mans whatever at the high end minimum) is going to produce a 20hp upgrade to characters that are functionally maxed out (i.e. can only be killed on bleeding edge content or if everyone in your group passes out into heroin addled slumber) is not something that the playerbase looks forward to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  3. Radaere

    Radaere Dalayan Elder

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    [​IMG]

    Ban Eisley (again).
     
  4. donfolstar3

    donfolstar3 Dalayan Master

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    Going ahead with the nerf without having hardly any of the buff ready is bad form. There is another thread going now to identify weapons that will need to be reevaluated with the change- why couldn't this thread have been started BEFORE the nerf? These projects that take time and will be worked on ASAP could all be crowd sourced to some extent (legwork/ideas, not so much with the programming) saving staff effort, accelerating the process, and making the diehard fans feel valued and involved.

    The bigger problem, in my mind, is the repeated cycle of:

    Something is powerful or fun > Nerfed to absolute death > Maybe reevaluated after years of whining, cogent arguments, and flat out begging
    ex: Pally ghot aggro, Zealot Strike, this

    Maybe instead of chopping down the tall poppy in step2 you could try measured responses, building up others, or just adequately develeping ideas on both sides of the nerf/buff equation before implementing them.
     
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  5. Rogue410

    Rogue410 Dalayan Beginner

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    Agni

    Agni (2hs from city event in PoFire) is heavily dependent on riposting (obviously, because it has a +10 riposte mod), so although the proc rate is high I'm sure DPS with this weapon will go down a lot if the proc rate's not fixed.
     
  6. Olive

    Olive Game Master Staff Member

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    This post is long, but I wanted to partially explain the intentions of the Dev-Team and also a new direction we are planning for this change. So, I apologize for the huge effort post and I hope at least a few people will find this information helpful. I understand this is upsetting, but it is a real balance issue, and has to be addressed.

    First of all, I wanted to say that I understand why people are upset by item nerfs in general and this one specifically. However, it was not meant to be punitive in any way, and was not done by Admin-Jumbers working alone. This is a legitimate balance issue that both Live EQ and EQEmu have had to deal with (and solved it as we did, by removing the mechanic). The Dev-Team as a whole worked to address this issue, and discussed the options at length. The reason this change (and any change) are often delayed is that we do want to have the mechanic in place to follow up a 'nerf' with an item re-balance to smooth the transition. But we do need to see the data from after the change to decide how to make the final adjustments. This can make players feel that we are quick to nerf and slow to re-balance, and while I understand that perception, it is not the intention. We are working toward class / item balance in all changes. The most popular alternative options in this thread were to revert the no-proc on riposte change and instead:
    • Remove 100% proc rates. This would partially address the ability to round up half a zone, but would actually be a bigger nerf to 1 person vs 1 target, which was not a problem. Slow weapons with 100% proc rates are actually cool and interesting, and removing that as a design option would be a shame, as well as not fully addressing the issue. To fully resolve it we would have had to combine it with a secondary fix.
    • Remove the ability to proc on riposte while in enrage stance. Again, this would only partially address the issue, as with a certain types of procs you can still achieve unintended or overpowered results with a large number of targets. This is also a warrior only ability and would be a larger nerf to that specific class, as compared to others. This would again mean combining this idea with with another fix, resulting in a larger nerf overall.
    For this change, the Dev-Team's intention was to remove the ability to proc on riposte and then adjust the proc rates across the board, resulting in no change to 1-4 mobs. There was discussion of many other ideas, as I explained, and we hoped this would prove to be the best solution. The idea of reverting this change and leaving riposte procs as they were is not an option. In the end, we really had only two options that would fully address this issue: A) Remove the ability to proc on riposte totally, and then re-balance items across the board to compensate or B) Allow riposte procs on the primary target only. The reason we wanted to go with the former is that it would allow us to balance (in theory) the situation of a small group of 1-4 mobs. The latter option, however, is much easier to code and would skip over the whole issue of re-balancing thousands of items. While this second option would not balance 2-4 mobs, it would leave a single mob (raid boss) encounters unchanged. Additionally, it would save the Devs work and provide an immediate relief to players.

    Given all this, the current position of the Dev-Team is to abandon the idea of the total removal of riposte procs and the attending item rebalance. This option may not be ideal in theory crafting, but in practice it will be much easier for both players and staff. Instead, procs will work on riposte, but against the primary target only. Expect this to go in the next patch.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
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  7. Hyoren

    Hyoren Dalayan Adventurer

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    Regardless if there were no riposte proc or just riposte proc to the primary target. Both ways still provides a loss in DPS to tanks. You still need to re-balance items to compensate for that DPS loss with either option. That's why quick fixes are bad, the implementation of the riposte change seemed to combat the mass pulling during exp weekend. Had it been a balanced fix I don't think people would have been as disgruntled. You made a quick fix without first balancing items across the board. A balanced fix would of been the removal of the riposte proc and item changes to compensate for the DPS loss at the same time.
     
  8. Moraelintz

    Moraelintz Dalayan Elder

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    In all reality the dps should be relatively negligible, an probably mostly balanced, you still get the hot just not the proc. it will go unnoticed on 90% of content it is the mass pulling is where it may be noticeable. Which is the cause for the change thus I do not think much needs to be done.
     
  9. Luccian

    Luccian Dalayan Adventurer

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    Olive, you say that riposte will proc on primary target still next patch. Does that mean every other riposte (in your 2-4 mobs scenario) will still be riposted, but for dmg and +aggro/hate alone? Or will something else be happening?
     
  10. Hyoren

    Hyoren Dalayan Adventurer

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    It really depends on the weapon. On a 4.8 proc weapon like yours it would really be negligible but the Spirit Harvest is a 100% proc weapon so it is really noticeable.
     
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  11. bloog

    bloog Dalayan Adventurer

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    I think from what it sounds like, if you are a warrior and you riposte a mob no matter if its your target or not you will still do weapon damage and also get +hate if you are a warrior. You just won't proc your weapons unless it is what you have targetted.

    Now while warriors are losing the ability to proc off ripostes they will get automatic +hate instead. They lose out on dps but you will end up getting more aggro in the long run against groups unless they had a brokenly overpowered weapon. Also I assume if you are 1v1 against a mob you will get your riposte procs and the +hate.

    This still hurts the other tanks a little bit. Maybe they should also get +aggro each time they riposte as well if they already aren't.

    Pretty much if you are a warrior with a weapon with a normal proc rate, you won't notice anything. If you had a spirit harvest, I feel sorry for your huge loss of dps but in the end it was really overpowered compared to any weapon before or after.

    RIP marza's loot and the great bag nerf of 2013
     
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  12. Moraelintz

    Moraelintz Dalayan Elder

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    Hyoren,

    What I am saying us that the dps loss is probably as intended and where it should be. Again you are mainly losing dps in the cases where you are tanking lots of mobs at once and that is the intent of the change. On single to three or four targets I imagine the dps loss is negligible, also warriors are already the highest dps of tanks at the high end.
     
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  13. DernipDaGnome

    DernipDaGnome Dalayan Adventurer

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    The problem I have with this is I will still suffer a quite large dps penalty. Can proc rates still be addressed?

    How about 6 mobs instead of 1 as per the pbaoe hit box?

    Also, please change this graphic, it is horrible and whoever put it in a should be shamed a thousand times. (maybe not that last one there, but you get it)

    http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Adversity
     
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  14. Vitali

    Vitali Dalayan Master

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    Can you post a SS of it's in game graphic? I am very curious with all the talk about it.
     
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  15. Silento

    Silento Dalayan Beginner

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    RIP posts about ripostes
     
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  16. jixx3

    jixx3 Dalayan Beginner

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    Another good move by the devs to make sure people's interest in playing this game is lowered kudos on your quest for genocide of this once great server
     
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  17. bloog

    bloog Dalayan Adventurer

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    Yea im getting pretty sad and choked up that I can no longer pull half of a low to mid level xp zone and kill it all as easily. Now I have to heal more instead of spamming plaguewind. Welp
     
  18. Hesyous

    Hesyous Dalayan Elder

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    I think the overall problem is, they think it's a problem. :eek:

    Kind of like the so called 'nerfing' to other classes and their abilities. :eek:

    Oh and :eek:
     
  19. TheSkos

    TheSkos Game Master Staff Member

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    Good job resurrecting a 9+ month old thread.
     
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  20. Hesyous

    Hesyous Dalayan Elder

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    Soooooo bored. And thanks!

    Edit: Not many posts happening, I thought I would just read through an old one and try out my rez abilities. It worked....I got a response in 15 minutes!
     

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