Voice of Kaez Timer (Hijacked: Terror of Kaezul)

Okay.. for the life of me I can't figure out why you guys have 3 terrors on your spell bar. I went ahead and did some testing, I get no benefit from an extra terror on my spell bar. With 3 terrors on bar

I cast terror 1 (all 3 terrors are down, for about 2 seconds)
I cast terror 2 as soon as able.. spamming it.. after which both terror 1 and 3 are available at the same time..

So I have a choice, I can cast terror 3 for less aggro, or cast terror 1 again for more aggro. I'm not getting any benefit with the 3rd terror... In short with 3 terrors on the bar, the other two pop at the same time always.. so if i'm using the 3rd I'm casting less aggro..

Also, voice, 15% aggro is huge... not only do I notice the difference on myself, but if I cast in on the warrior in raid it's obvious he holds aggro better than when I don't.. I don't think this spell is trivial at all..

As for the changes, I'm open to having room for more utility on my SK, we've got some great spells it would be nice to use them.

I like the aggro as it is though, I mean it's not that big of a deal to make one hot key with all your aggro spells on it, that way your not having to spam different hot keys like a noob. That would suck. TBH I'd rather see voice changed so that it's a standard buff rather than change aggro, but I'm open to trying either.

As for the original post, I want to clarify it's not a complaint, I actually love my SK and think the class is great, it was just a suggestion to get more room for utility spells.
 
Kakos said:
Okay.. for the life of me I can't figure out why you guys have 3 terrors on your spell bar. I went ahead and did some testing, I get no benefit from an extra terror on my spell bar. With 3 terrors on bar

I cast terror 1 (all 3 terrors are down, for about 2 seconds)
I cast terror 2 as soon as able.. spamming it.. after which both terror 1 and 3 are available at the same time..
Click to expand...

It's all about latency. When terror two lands, I'd have to wait over a second to have a chance to cast another terror if not more. if you have high latency you're in two terror territory, low latency, 3 terror territory.
 
Okay, I see the problem..

When I cast ANY spell, I have about 2 seconds for any of my spell icons to refresh to be able to cast any other spell..

So, terror is 6 second recast time, 1 second to cast

So for me
Cast terror 1 (1sec), spell bars 2 seconds to come up, thats 3 seconds for each terror, with recast of 6 seconds, I can only get 2 off in a 6 second span

For you
Cast terror 1 (1sec), spell bars take 1 second to come up, thats 2 seconds for each terror, so you can get 3 off in a 6 second span...

So is the problem my internet provider or my equipment?

Edit..

Actually looking at cyzaines charts... it looks like there is more aggro with 2 terrors than 3, both charts seem to show 3 seconds per cast which makes me wonder if 2 second latency is standard, if that's the case then it is clearly better to have just 2 terrors up rather than 3. Perhaps I misunderstood your post Thade, I had thought you were saying I was limited to 2 because I have high latency
 
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most likely your internet provider. The location of the sod server also plays a big role in this, so in some countries/locations you would get the same result no matter what internet provider you'd use. This lagproblem is a big reason why this change would be good, it would remove the difference in how much agro could be created by one sk vs another. I have the same issue most of the time and I rarely run with more than 2 terrors. Agro wise on single mobs I find 2 being sufficient, the only reason to have 3 for me would be on mobs that wipe agro every now and then, ie to always have a freshed agro spell to cast for when its wiped.

As for the latest thoughts by cyzaine, I actually kind of like this idea! I would like to see the mana cost at about x2 though or it would probably mean quick manadrainage when doing multiple mobs, meaning more medtime, meaning not liked in ae groups. Anyways:

Terror of Kaezul
cast time: 1 sec
recast: 0 sec
mana cost: 100 or 110
effect: 675 initital agro followed by 510 per tick
duration: 3 ticks
Can overwrite itself, spell follows regular rules for dots, ie multiple sk's can stack their spells on a mob if two in a raid and is affected by affliction enhancement for scaling with tiers (might even want to lower the agro in base-edition some and have it scale with tomes too, just as if the hate was dot dmg)

Then change the aa, either to my suggestion, or in some other way. To allow for versatility (on reflecting mobs and so on) and to allow for pulls to be made (I can imagine the effect of trying to split mobs if I put a agrodot on a mob that resets, and then get up from fd) keep Terror of marlow as it is right now, but not stacking with new terror of kaezul. (ie leave the lowerlvl terrors as they are).
 
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Just to clarify, I'm not sure I have an issue with lag, looking at the examples Cyzaine uses; two terrors look better than three.

Now if you can get more than 7 terrors cast in 18 seconds then having 3 terrors up is better, but I suspect the most you can get is 7 (using Cyzaines chart as example)

Are you saying with 3 terrors up you are able to cast more than 7 terrors in the 18 seconds? (i.e. you are casting more than 1 every 3 seconds?)
 
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The third chart is for number crunching purposes only, as Thade requested it and I saw no harm in making it quick. I don't know exactly how much hate Eyate or Gladis or Adlarac or any other Shadowknight can pull off in 18 seconds. I can only estimate the 'perfect' 18 seconds, and assume everyone else is lower than that.

Here is food for thought. Mathematically the first chart is possible with a bit of variance. It assumes universal cooldown is 2 seconds, that you start casting the instant you can, the spell finishes when it's supposed to, and the cooldown starts when it should. This, sadly, isn't always the case. If the client or server disagree on what you did, or when you did it, you'll lose efficiency no matter how good your reaction time. This occurs mostly of the time due to latency or server lag spikes. In its most extreme form, this is why you can sometimes be stuck spell casting with your gems shaded out.

My personal findings (timestamps in the code) are that the average person doesn't hit the button exactly when its possible. Universal cool down is 2 seconds, but it can effectively become 2.25 seconds before the game registers you hit a button. The more times you're forced to hit a button, the more your actions are delayed, and it isn't a stretch to say that the Shadowknight hits more spell buttons, more often, than anyone else.

All this is a long way of saying the first chart is very idealized. If you can do two terrors with no pause in between, then you are probably very close to the 1st chart. If you run with 3 terrors in order to get no pause, then you are closer to the 3rd chart. If you don't cast terrors for 18 seconds, neither chart really applies. In both cases, you'd have more to do and around the same hate if you followed the 2nd chart which shows the proposed changes.
 
Terror of Kaezul
Cast time: 1 sec
Recast: 0 sec
Mana cost: 165
Effect: 675 initial hate followed by 510 per tick
Duration: 3 ticks

This is what I'm thinking at this point. Over the 18 seconds it should cost around as much as currently spamming terrors would, plus a bit of convenience cost. Remember this is FAR better for multi targets. You'd still retain snap aggro at a cost. Casting the spell twice off the bat would end up something like.

Code: 
0      3      6      9      12     15     18
[COLOR=Red]|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR]
[SIZE=1]675     1185     1635      2310     2820      3270    3945[/SIZE]
[COLOR=Red]|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR]--|------|------|------|------|[/COLOR]
[SIZE=1]675     1350     1350      1860     1860    2370      2370[/SIZE]
As you can see casting twice would net you more aggro in the 3 second period given the above changes, where it is most crucial, improving SK snap slightly

For shits and giggles, here's mana cost over that time period.
Code: 
0      3      6      9      12     15     18
[COLOR=Red]|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[/COLOR]
[SIZE=1]55       106      161      212       267      318     373[/SIZE]
[COLOR=Red]|[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR][COLOR=Lime]--|[COLOR=Red]----[/COLOR]--|------|------|------|------|[/COLOR]
[SIZE=1]165      330      330      330      330       330     330[/SIZE]

This is about 10.57 mana per hate for the old versus 7.18 mana per hate for the new. So you make out substantially better mana per hate given current numbers, and worse given mine if you cast twice. If you can get away only casting once, you get 14.36 mana per hate, which is obviously better.

So as far as pure mana cost goes, you wouldn't be off by much given a reasonable 2nd cast on a single target. Overall you would be down, but again the point of this isn't to allow you to spam the same terror spell over and over rather than two or three, its to allow you to cast other spells and not be at a disadvantage compared to where you are now.

Glamrin said:
Can overwrite itself, spell follows regular rules for dots, ie multiple sk's can stack their spells on a mob if two in a raid and is affected by affliction enhancement for scaling with tiers (might even want to lower the agro in base-edition some and have it scale with tomes too, just as if the hate was dot dmg)
Click to expand...

I don't understand this thought process. After level 60, NO aggro spell scales. Why should SK's be an exception? Blinds don't scale, stuns don't scale, why do you want terrors to scale? You can already get away casting 1/3 less on a single mob to maintain better aggro than a paladin. Knight versus knight, on a single target your DPS can go harder, longer with an SK every time (a warrior only competes by taunting off the SK, since knight taunt isn't as reliable) regardless of what the metagame may think. Trust me when I say you don't need constant hate scaling. Your melee scales the same as a paladin and warrior as far as tomes and haste go, you get the bash aggro bonus knights get... if we ever decide you need more scaling over what you already get, we'll make sure you do.
 
Kakos said:
Just to clarify, I'm not sure I have an issue with lag, looking at the examples Cyzaine uses; two terrors look better than three.

Now if you can get more than 7 terrors cast in 18 seconds then having 3 terrors up is better, but I suspect the most you can get is 7 (using Cyzaines chart as example)

Are you saying with 3 terrors up you are able to cast more than 7 terrors in the 18 seconds? (i.e. you are casting more than 1 every 3 seconds?)
Click to expand...

I have serious doubts to the examples validity in game, there is and has never been any doubt in my mind to how huge the difference in using three terrors over two is.

Being forced down to two terrors made my aggro generation WORSE than the warrior, and having a nightmare of a time when cinn would constantly pull aggro over otcho in storms eye. Sitting there for three hours and watching the sole difference in who had aggro being my third terror working or not basically sealed the deal for me.

The major benefit of it is simply when your dealing with 4+ mobs. When the zone isn't being awful and cruel there is usually a half second~ between my third terror going down and the first one coming up. Assault of shadows fades out of the picture when I am not lagging.

Again I really like the idea behind this change and you would own if you went through with it also zaela owns too
 
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Otcho said:
I have serious doubts to the examples validity in game, there is and has never been any doubt in my mind to how huge the difference in using three terrors over two is.

Being forced down to two terrors made my aggro generation WORSE than the warrior, and having a nightmare of a time when cinn would constantly pull aggro over otcho in storms eye. Sitting there for three hours and watching the sole difference in who had aggro being my third terror working or not basically sealed the deal for me.

The major benefit of it is simply when your dealing with 4+ mobs. When the zone isn't being awful and cruel there is usually a half second~ between my third terror going down and the first one coming up. Assault of shadows fades out of the picture when I am not lagging.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you have lag issues where i don't, I can pretty much match aggro to Cyzaines first example, so basically I cast a terror every 3 seconds with the 2 second cooldown, now perhaps over 18 seconds I don't get all 7 cast because of human delay, however using a 3rd terror in my case would make it worse not better, as I always have terror 1 up when terror 3 pops up. Just makes no sense for me to hit terror 3 when I can just hit terror 1 for bigger aggro
 
SK terror spells are fine the way they are. lol

Kakos.. you need to mem Voice, then /Q or /cm refresh to refresh the voice icon for those silly warrior/paladins. I rarely use voice on myself, and I'm constantly told I'm the best aggro of any tank people group with. Whats all this nitpickery lol.

I simply have 1 spell slot that i use to load buffs. My middle spell slot usually has Soul Shroud loaded at first, I cast that.. then demem it and load other buffs, including voice for a war/pal sometimes. After all thats good, I load up brazen bull only when duo-ing or on raid mobs that phantom strike. I could actually improve the way I do this and have voice pre-loaded where soul shroud is, so I have it up when I'm rezzed etc, and can throw it on a warrior/paladin. I used to load gather shadows too, but now I have a vah rose for that, wooo that thing is sweet.
 
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thanks tons for fixing aa hate scaling (scs) zaela! feels kinda weird to be back working on aa's again :p

upcoming changes sounds interesting, there might be some kinks, but I'm looking forward to checking it out and see how it works in real play.

thanks both of you zaela and cyzaine for all the work, excellent ideas and changes :)
 
Kakos said:
Perhaps you have lag issues where i don't, I can pretty much match aggro to Cyzaines first example, so basically I cast a terror every 3 seconds with the 2 second cooldown, now perhaps over 18 seconds I don't get all 7 cast because of human delay, however using a 3rd terror in my case would make it worse not better, as I always have terror 1 up when terror 3 pops up. Just makes no sense for me to hit terror 3 when I can just hit terror 1 for bigger aggro
Click to expand...

I do not believe my global cooldown is 2 seconds but here you go its a mystery:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1140/itsamysterybro.png
 
nikosk said:
SK terror spells are fine the way they are. lol
Click to expand...

I can't say I disagree with this.. I dont' have any issue with the terror spells the way they are, only bad thing you could say is having to spam different spells, but if you set up a hot key with both spells on it that just means your spamming one key.

Perhaps you could argue if one cast with more hate and duration to it it's less spamming for aggro.. but it sounds like you have to make up the aggro difference spamming other stuff.. so I'm not really excited about the proposed changes myself. Anyway, I'm open to it, it will free up a spell slot for another utility anyway, which is a good thing.

Kak
 
Kakos said:
Perhaps you could argue if one cast with more hate and duration to it it's less spamming for aggro.. but it sounds like you have to make up the aggro difference spamming other stuff.. so I'm not really excited about the proposed changes myself. Anyway, I'm open to it, it will free up a spell slot for another utility anyway, which is a good thing.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much an accurate summary of the proposed changes. You'd still be spamming for max aggro, just what you'd be spamming would be different, and if you suffered from latency issues, or if the server hiccups, it would affect your overall spell selection and hate levels less.

Now to me, spamming lifetaps, recourses, and spears is more interesting and more fun then spamming terrors. You'd be doing more damage (not that it matters that much), and contributing in more ways then just pure hate. That sorta thing is what I found fun on my shadow knight, and I believe I'm not alone in thinking that.
 
LOL Otcho..

I have 3 terrors up now, trying to emulate that screenshot... I can't.. if my other spell icons are up I always have a terror up
 
Cyzaine said:
This is pretty much an accurate summary of the proposed changes. You'd still be spamming for max aggro, just what you'd be spamming would be different, and if you suffered from latency issues, or if the server hiccups, it would affect your overall spell selection and hate levels less.

Now to me, spamming lifetaps, recourses, and spears is more interesting and more fun then spamming terrors. You'd be doing more damage (not that it matters that much), and contributing in more ways then just hate. That sorta thing is what I found fun on my shadow knight, and I believe I'm not alone in thinking that.
Click to expand...

This times ten. I don't like to agree with cyzaine but he basically summed the whole deal up.
 
Alright.. did some more extensive testing.. there are times where I seem to have a difference in the cooldown, looks like depending on the zone.. so I can see where 3 terrors would be preferred.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I can see where you coming from on this, I'm fine with 2 most of the time, but I can see why 3 would be used, especially if lagging.
 
Kakos said:
Anyway, just wanted to say that I can see where you coming from on this, I'm fine with 2 most of the time, but I can see why 3 would be used, especially if lagging.
Click to expand...

The benefit is when you have 18 mobs attacking you and your spells are taking a second to come up instead of the supposed two you have alot more hate going around. It is significantly better then 2 and AA terror.

When you do not have this situation you are forced to change how your pulling and if thats not available you just fail and wish you could get whirlwind.

Having this lag for whatever reason it is simply ruins my game experience. Sorry guys were gonna have to progress at a snails pace because of the lag and my inability to keep all twenty terrors off gtoo.
 
Cyzaine said:
Now to me, spamming lifetaps, recourses, and spears is more interesting and more fun then spamming terrors. You'd be doing more damage (not that it matters that much), and contributing in more ways then just pure hate. That sorta thing is what I found fun on my shadow knight, and I believe I'm not alone in thinking that.
Click to expand...

can only agree.
 
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