(This is not a tank class comparison thread, but it includes noticed information that is involved in that constant hated topic. For this reason, I am sorry for yet another comparison post that everyone hates.)
Problem: I, as well as another equivalently geared warrior (tmap VD/tier 1-2) in my guild, cannot seem to keep agro on "trash" mobs on guild raids ... or even during many group encounters. This is in contrast to when our guild uses an equivalently geared sk or paladin from the guild to be the raid (or group) tank. (The issue is not noticed during the killing of the actual raid target, presumably due to the higher hp of the mobs in question.)
Through forum searches, I have found the following about warrior melee agro generation:
1. Warriors are the only class that receives "bonus" agro vs. other classes for every actual hit that lands.
2. With the late first quarter 2009 changes to agro generation, weapon ratio is more important than weapon delay.
3. Duel wielding, due to number 1, is still the best option for warrior agro generation.
4. The Advanced Anatomy 2 AA adds 4 extra hate...supposedly... per SWING. (As opposed to per SUCCESSFUL HIT.) <Note, due to this wording, the assumption is being made that the warrior base agro bonus is applied on every successful SWING instead of successful HIT.)
In theory, therefore, the way to increase warrior agro generation would be:
1. Lower ratio weapons. (Increased number of swings, increased application of base hate modifier.)
2. Use the weapon with the best ratio.
3. Always duel wield.
4. Purchase Advanced Anatomy 2 AA asap to get the 4 extra hate per swing added to the base hate of X (haven't seen this posted anywhere).
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Unless someone wants to use a different set of weapons for comparison, the below will be used for this equipment tier as the "best" defensive warrior usable weapons.
(D tmap weapons, despite having higher AC <Pitted Parrying Blade>, or higher "with elemental dmg added" dmgs/ratios <Ebb and Flow>, either have lower ratios <former> or can't be relied upon to apply their elemental dmg in a sufficient manner to beat the below base ratios. Further, I have yet to see a tier 1/2 mob drop a weapon that would upgrade the below.) <Lots of caster equipment in this tier range, very little for tanks.>
1. Rune-Scorched Axe (Primary): Ratio = .68, AC = 15
2. Ruby-Hilted Longsword (Secondary): Ratio = .62, AC = 15
Totals: 30 AC (No Blocking), Ratio = 1.3, Duel Wielding = 2X application of base hate modifier, (After spending 25 AAs...) Advanced Anatomy 2: 2X application of extra 4 hate (This also assumes that the warrior has spend 9 AAs to buy Ambidexterity, confirming no Duel Wield skill failures.)
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An easy combination for comparison for a Paladin is Soulfire (Ratio 1.0 & better delay by 1 or 2 of the warrior weapons above, 10 AC) and Shield of Freeport (52 AC, allows blocking.)
Totals: 62 AC (Blocking), Ratio 1.0, 1 or 2 better base delay than best warrior weapons above. (This lower delay, after X hits, will equal out the bonus to the warrior's base hate from a SINGLE weapon due to an increased number of weapon swings.)
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<Note: I know better exists for SKs, but can't find in available time>
An easy combination for comparison for a SK is Rotblade (Ratio .79/1.14 <if the Disease Dmg is counted>, AC 0) with Arena Lord's Protector (40 AC, allows blocking.)
Totals: 40 AC (Blocking), Ratio .79
<Note: SK info needs to be edited with a better typical weapon when time allows.>
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When the 3 class's ability to keep agro is compared at this equipment level: (With all classes having the same amount of +Aggression)
1. The Warrior has a slightly better total ratio (assuming equivalent number of hits on the mobs from 2 weapons instead of 1), and he also has "one weapon" that will be giving him his agro bonus at all times when swung. He also suffers from an increased number of ripostes, however. Foelock gives a one time bonus at initial engagement.
<The ability to cast spells, vs. the time not swinging a weapon due to the casting of said spells, is known and assumed below.>
2. The Paladin is able to block blows due to the use of a shield (especially if Shielding Mastery 3 is taken), has a near equivalent weapon ratio (due to the Warrior having to break through a second set of the mob's AC/Dodge/Parry/etc), and is swinging their weapon faster (thus, over the course of an entire raid night, probably not suffering a penalty to their melee swing delay when compared to the Warrior's weapons.)
3. <SK information not included since a good weapon was not used in this analysis.>
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Again, the point of this thread is not to restart the "tank debate," but simply request suggestions from fellow Warrior players (that actually played their characters through this equipment tier) to deal with the agro problem. (As, if we lose the mob's agro, we aren't doing our job.)
1. Are better weapons available at this equipment range that I have missed? (If not, why aren't there any "warrior usable due to +AC, stamina, hp, etc." weapons in the tier 1/2/early 3 range?)
2. Is taking Advanced Anatomy 2 ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED, as it seems it may be? (If so, short of the very high-end tomes, how do warriors continue to increase their agro with increasing equipment tiers versus the rapidly increasing amount of DPS coming from the remainder of the raid?)
3. Confirmation requested please: The base agro from a melee swing is given to the character despite a hit or miss on the mob in question. (Thus, dismissing the ideas of taking Melee Mastery 3 for "always double attacking, increased base agro" & "the AA +to hit" AAs to generate more base agro from successful hits.)
<Opinion, again, not the point of this thread>
Because, from my experience thus far, Warriors are only needed for the "boss fight" due to their ability to take less dmg from hard/fast hitting mobs. (Versus the "trash" mobs that must be killed prior to this point in the raid.)
Problem: I, as well as another equivalently geared warrior (tmap VD/tier 1-2) in my guild, cannot seem to keep agro on "trash" mobs on guild raids ... or even during many group encounters. This is in contrast to when our guild uses an equivalently geared sk or paladin from the guild to be the raid (or group) tank. (The issue is not noticed during the killing of the actual raid target, presumably due to the higher hp of the mobs in question.)
Through forum searches, I have found the following about warrior melee agro generation:
1. Warriors are the only class that receives "bonus" agro vs. other classes for every actual hit that lands.
2. With the late first quarter 2009 changes to agro generation, weapon ratio is more important than weapon delay.
3. Duel wielding, due to number 1, is still the best option for warrior agro generation.
4. The Advanced Anatomy 2 AA adds 4 extra hate...supposedly... per SWING. (As opposed to per SUCCESSFUL HIT.) <Note, due to this wording, the assumption is being made that the warrior base agro bonus is applied on every successful SWING instead of successful HIT.)
In theory, therefore, the way to increase warrior agro generation would be:
1. Lower ratio weapons. (Increased number of swings, increased application of base hate modifier.)
2. Use the weapon with the best ratio.
3. Always duel wield.
4. Purchase Advanced Anatomy 2 AA asap to get the 4 extra hate per swing added to the base hate of X (haven't seen this posted anywhere).
-------------
Unless someone wants to use a different set of weapons for comparison, the below will be used for this equipment tier as the "best" defensive warrior usable weapons.
(D tmap weapons, despite having higher AC <Pitted Parrying Blade>, or higher "with elemental dmg added" dmgs/ratios <Ebb and Flow>, either have lower ratios <former> or can't be relied upon to apply their elemental dmg in a sufficient manner to beat the below base ratios. Further, I have yet to see a tier 1/2 mob drop a weapon that would upgrade the below.) <Lots of caster equipment in this tier range, very little for tanks.>
1. Rune-Scorched Axe (Primary): Ratio = .68, AC = 15
2. Ruby-Hilted Longsword (Secondary): Ratio = .62, AC = 15
Totals: 30 AC (No Blocking), Ratio = 1.3, Duel Wielding = 2X application of base hate modifier, (After spending 25 AAs...) Advanced Anatomy 2: 2X application of extra 4 hate (This also assumes that the warrior has spend 9 AAs to buy Ambidexterity, confirming no Duel Wield skill failures.)
----------
An easy combination for comparison for a Paladin is Soulfire (Ratio 1.0 & better delay by 1 or 2 of the warrior weapons above, 10 AC) and Shield of Freeport (52 AC, allows blocking.)
Totals: 62 AC (Blocking), Ratio 1.0, 1 or 2 better base delay than best warrior weapons above. (This lower delay, after X hits, will equal out the bonus to the warrior's base hate from a SINGLE weapon due to an increased number of weapon swings.)
----------
<Note: I know better exists for SKs, but can't find in available time>
An easy combination for comparison for a SK is Rotblade (Ratio .79/1.14 <if the Disease Dmg is counted>, AC 0) with Arena Lord's Protector (40 AC, allows blocking.)
Totals: 40 AC (Blocking), Ratio .79
<Note: SK info needs to be edited with a better typical weapon when time allows.>
-----------
When the 3 class's ability to keep agro is compared at this equipment level: (With all classes having the same amount of +Aggression)
1. The Warrior has a slightly better total ratio (assuming equivalent number of hits on the mobs from 2 weapons instead of 1), and he also has "one weapon" that will be giving him his agro bonus at all times when swung. He also suffers from an increased number of ripostes, however. Foelock gives a one time bonus at initial engagement.
<The ability to cast spells, vs. the time not swinging a weapon due to the casting of said spells, is known and assumed below.>
2. The Paladin is able to block blows due to the use of a shield (especially if Shielding Mastery 3 is taken), has a near equivalent weapon ratio (due to the Warrior having to break through a second set of the mob's AC/Dodge/Parry/etc), and is swinging their weapon faster (thus, over the course of an entire raid night, probably not suffering a penalty to their melee swing delay when compared to the Warrior's weapons.)
3. <SK information not included since a good weapon was not used in this analysis.>
--------------------------
Again, the point of this thread is not to restart the "tank debate," but simply request suggestions from fellow Warrior players (that actually played their characters through this equipment tier) to deal with the agro problem. (As, if we lose the mob's agro, we aren't doing our job.)
1. Are better weapons available at this equipment range that I have missed? (If not, why aren't there any "warrior usable due to +AC, stamina, hp, etc." weapons in the tier 1/2/early 3 range?)
2. Is taking Advanced Anatomy 2 ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED, as it seems it may be? (If so, short of the very high-end tomes, how do warriors continue to increase their agro with increasing equipment tiers versus the rapidly increasing amount of DPS coming from the remainder of the raid?)
3. Confirmation requested please: The base agro from a melee swing is given to the character despite a hit or miss on the mob in question. (Thus, dismissing the ideas of taking Melee Mastery 3 for "always double attacking, increased base agro" & "the AA +to hit" AAs to generate more base agro from successful hits.)
<Opinion, again, not the point of this thread>
Because, from my experience thus far, Warriors are only needed for the "boss fight" due to their ability to take less dmg from hard/fast hitting mobs. (Versus the "trash" mobs that must be killed prior to this point in the raid.)
