We All Love Monks, Here
- Thread starter Slaariel
- Start date
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
Addressing some of the further issues:
Ordinary Stances - Maybe make them last a certain amount of time for a discipline cost Im not too sure on this one
Glove itemization - i am excited to make a big dumb nerd post with numbers
H2H mod - Improve fist of fury bonus by .2% per point. So if Fist of fury provides for example, +10% accuracy, having +25 h2h mod would make it +15%.
Tank Stance - [Level 69, 2x 1handed weapons] Increases threat generation, but reduces all damage dealt by 20%. Upon dodging, blocking, parrying, or riposting an attack from the monks primary target, the monk heals them self for X amount of damage. As per the 2nd half of the stance, it could just increase mitigation and/or avoidance although that is way less cool.
AE/2h AE - Procs is what makes this stance so exploitable. Maybe make it 2handed only, but allow monks to double attack on the mobs at the same rate they would normally triple attack to make up for lost procs.
As for the regen thing, i have no strong feelings or ideas either way
Non-fail FD - /s 17 [level 18 is that when monks get fd?] - Uses all the monks current discipline and feigns them with a 0% chance to fail and wipes them of hatelist of all mobs and renders them intargetable to AoEs. Prevents them from gaining discipline or using fist of fury for 10 minutes(maybe too long? what is normal exhaustion timer). 15-20 minute cooldown.
Another thing is how would Tales of Rapid Recovery and Opus of Melee Discipline 1 effect the discipline system? this probably ties in with point one but it could probably have effects similar to the way it works with warriors?
Ordinary Stances - Maybe make them last a certain amount of time for a discipline cost Im not too sure on this one
Glove itemization - i am excited to make a big dumb nerd post with numbers
H2H mod - Improve fist of fury bonus by .2% per point. So if Fist of fury provides for example, +10% accuracy, having +25 h2h mod would make it +15%.
Tank Stance - [Level 69, 2x 1handed weapons] Increases threat generation, but reduces all damage dealt by 20%. Upon dodging, blocking, parrying, or riposting an attack from the monks primary target, the monk heals them self for X amount of damage. As per the 2nd half of the stance, it could just increase mitigation and/or avoidance although that is way less cool.
AE/2h AE - Procs is what makes this stance so exploitable. Maybe make it 2handed only, but allow monks to double attack on the mobs at the same rate they would normally triple attack to make up for lost procs.
As for the regen thing, i have no strong feelings or ideas either way
Non-fail FD - /s 17 [level 18 is that when monks get fd?] - Uses all the monks current discipline and feigns them with a 0% chance to fail and wipes them of hatelist of all mobs and renders them intargetable to AoEs. Prevents them from gaining discipline or using fist of fury for 10 minutes(maybe too long? what is normal exhaustion timer). 15-20 minute cooldown.
Another thing is how would Tales of Rapid Recovery and Opus of Melee Discipline 1 effect the discipline system? this probably ties in with point one but it could probably have effects similar to the way it works with warriors?
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
one dudes boxed alt monk vs single client mained dudes that have better characters. From what i've seen from draeos - usually top 3 on non dragons, almost guaranteed top 1 on actual dragons but that was a while ago but no major changes have happened since then
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
I thought of a good thing for the aggro issue and that is that Monks can generate aggro just fine but once the mob looks at them they must be in a stance or have that aggro slowly drain. This allows the first couple rounds after Tank Death to be on the Monk and if he's fast enough (and has planned ahead) he can maintain that by swapping into his stance that slowly drains discipline. Eventually, it's not going to hold, but if your tanks are dead and the mob is only at 30% there is no way you should expect an outcome other than wipe anyway.
sabuti
Dalayan Elder
thats a good idea but if this was the new thing for monks then we would suck for xp groups, unless we did the dps we do now normally, and just way more with intensi-kick on long fights.
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Just to address some of the suggestions regarding changing weapons during fighting. I think that if/when the bandolier system goes into place with 2.5 it is not a bad plan, until then it is a bad plan. Even with my ui set up to make changing weapons not as clunky, it is still super clunky.
Also, someone suggested the 3rd tome should add balance to the class. I disagree, and think the class should be balanced prior to adding a 3rd tome. That way the 3rd tome could add flavor instead of being required. Sensibly, this way monks can still perform as envisioned prior to being 3rd time enabled.
Also, someone suggested the 3rd tome should add balance to the class. I disagree, and think the class should be balanced prior to adding a 3rd tome. That way the 3rd tome could add flavor instead of being required. Sensibly, this way monks can still perform as envisioned prior to being 3rd time enabled.
I fully admit I don't have my own monk and barely play one but I always thought it was kind of goofy that monks the martial arts masters wouldn't be able to fight effectively from all sides. A lot of martial arts training is using your opponent's strength against them so I thought a stance that would provide strikethrough/counter whenever a mob parries/dodges/ripostes would be kind of neat. Gives monks a reason to aux in front without endangering themselves as much and makes it a benefit for them to be in front of the mob instead of in the back. Not sure how hard that would be to code though. But if you need a thematic reason, you brought a reason up and so have I. Make it a BENEFIT for someone else to be in front and make monks want to fight their opponents face to face to use their opponent's strength against them.
But like I said I have no horse in this game, just thought something like that would be neat. vOv
But like I said I have no horse in this game, just thought something like that would be neat. vOv
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
I think monks shouldn't do as much sustained single target dps as rogues. But if a t13 rogue does ~1500, a t13 monk doing like 1200-1300 while helping aux would be cool. You shouldn't want 3 monks in every raid because they trivialize healing the main tank, but it would be nice to contribute something more than lackluster dps for all the raids and 6mans where that's all we offer currently.
My understanding of aux tanking is that all mobs can be auxed to 80% damage, raid mobs have an initial 20% bonus which means you need 40% aux for them. High tier tanks/melees/hybrids contribute 15% aux reduction per character, so three people auxing is what's required to hit the cap. On some fights, healers can aux and you basically are at the aux cap from just them plus a second tank. Would this change to give monks a bonus to auxing allow us to contribute more than 15%, or allow us to aux a mob beyond the current 80% limit, or something else entirely?
Being able to attack from the front with no/minimal reduction in monk damage output does make sense and would be a cool niche for the class. Lots of stuff has frontal AOEs though so I'm not sure how to account for that. On-tier fights can be very tight when it comes to healer mana, and having one person in the group taking more damage than everyone else throws off the group heals and results in oom healers and wipes. So that would need to be addressed, or monks could just dps from behind on those fights, but that would be a pretty big chunk of content that our new class niche wouldn't apply to.
I've never actually done a direct comparison parse for attacking a mob from the front vs back. I'd guess it's like a 10-15% difference but I could be off, plus it would vary depending on the mob maybe. But I'll run some long parses for this if nobody else supplies numbers.
There are a lot of places where you need to FD numerous times to split a pull so tying basic FD to the stam/disc bar wouldn't work unless we were also given some way to guarantee a split. Monks on live were given some sort of combat ability that prevented a mob from resetting as quickly as other mobs after a FD, I think? I don't know how that would work here or if it's necessary at all unless we lose the ability to flop repeatedly while splitting.
As far as other things our special attacks could do-
Kick could get a basic bonus damage from the disc bar since it's what monks start with. Flying Kick could be a bigger and better version since it's the optimal dps attack from level 35 through the endgame.
Round Kick having a lifetap or heal would be nice and might be what allows us to attack from the front against mobs with frontal AOEs. Or flip this with regular Kick; it seems weird that Kick is completely ignored in combos and I don't think that should be the case in the new system.
Tiger Claw already has a chance to proc +aggro so maybe this could tie in to the changes to our aggro somehow for situations where we are offtanking or something.
Eagle Strike, Tail Rake/DP- I'd like it if we had things that applied a debuff or buff or something in the song window for our group that made them worth using at the start of the fight or every 30 seconds or whatever. Similar to how Slow Time worked when it was broken. We'd still be spamming FK most of the time but working in another attack or two every so often for optimal dps or group/raid utility would be nice. That's what I thought we would be getting with the combo system but it didn't turn out that way. Reduce mob AC or spell resists for a minute, apply a debuff that is like a DOT version of jinx and causes one mob swing to miss every tick for five ticks, etc.
Also for the love of god please keep the effects of Dragon Punch and Tail Rake identical to each other or have only the very smallest difference. People who chose their race years ago shouldn't be stuck with a clearly inferior attack as a result.
My understanding of aux tanking is that all mobs can be auxed to 80% damage, raid mobs have an initial 20% bonus which means you need 40% aux for them. High tier tanks/melees/hybrids contribute 15% aux reduction per character, so three people auxing is what's required to hit the cap. On some fights, healers can aux and you basically are at the aux cap from just them plus a second tank. Would this change to give monks a bonus to auxing allow us to contribute more than 15%, or allow us to aux a mob beyond the current 80% limit, or something else entirely?
Being able to attack from the front with no/minimal reduction in monk damage output does make sense and would be a cool niche for the class. Lots of stuff has frontal AOEs though so I'm not sure how to account for that. On-tier fights can be very tight when it comes to healer mana, and having one person in the group taking more damage than everyone else throws off the group heals and results in oom healers and wipes. So that would need to be addressed, or monks could just dps from behind on those fights, but that would be a pretty big chunk of content that our new class niche wouldn't apply to.
I've never actually done a direct comparison parse for attacking a mob from the front vs back. I'd guess it's like a 10-15% difference but I could be off, plus it would vary depending on the mob maybe. But I'll run some long parses for this if nobody else supplies numbers.
There are a lot of places where you need to FD numerous times to split a pull so tying basic FD to the stam/disc bar wouldn't work unless we were also given some way to guarantee a split. Monks on live were given some sort of combat ability that prevented a mob from resetting as quickly as other mobs after a FD, I think? I don't know how that would work here or if it's necessary at all unless we lose the ability to flop repeatedly while splitting.
As far as other things our special attacks could do-
Kick could get a basic bonus damage from the disc bar since it's what monks start with. Flying Kick could be a bigger and better version since it's the optimal dps attack from level 35 through the endgame.
Round Kick having a lifetap or heal would be nice and might be what allows us to attack from the front against mobs with frontal AOEs. Or flip this with regular Kick; it seems weird that Kick is completely ignored in combos and I don't think that should be the case in the new system.
Tiger Claw already has a chance to proc +aggro so maybe this could tie in to the changes to our aggro somehow for situations where we are offtanking or something.
Eagle Strike, Tail Rake/DP- I'd like it if we had things that applied a debuff or buff or something in the song window for our group that made them worth using at the start of the fight or every 30 seconds or whatever. Similar to how Slow Time worked when it was broken. We'd still be spamming FK most of the time but working in another attack or two every so often for optimal dps or group/raid utility would be nice. That's what I thought we would be getting with the combo system but it didn't turn out that way. Reduce mob AC or spell resists for a minute, apply a debuff that is like a DOT version of jinx and causes one mob swing to miss every tick for five ticks, etc.
Also for the love of god please keep the effects of Dragon Punch and Tail Rake identical to each other or have only the very smallest difference. People who chose their race years ago shouldn't be stuck with a clearly inferior attack as a result.
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Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
This sounds like we'd still pull aggro for at least a few rounds/seconds/ticks unless we FD often as a pseudo-jolt like we do now. Pulling aggro, even briefly, is a very bad thing for a lot of reasons, so I'm not sure how this would work out.
In theory monks are like tied with rangers as the best tanks aside from real tanks. Having to FD all the time messes this up though because we don't have the option of staying near the top of the aggro list but below the tank. Monks generate fucktons of aggro, flop to 0, and start over. This means that most of the time when tanks die, it's other dps classes that are next on the aggro list and not us. And if it just so happens that we do pick up aggro, we get splattered because of offensive stance and greatly reduced avoidance from our dps combo. Our tank died on a trash mob in Tur'ruj a few days ago, the mob turned to me, and hit me 8 times with 0 misses and I died before I got a single heal, even though I got a mend off. If we won't have our avoidance greatly diminished while DPSing it would be a bit more likely that we can pick up a mob briefly, but we'd still need a way of being near the top of the aggro list without actually pulling aggro.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Okay, well perfect aggro control is impossible and the closest thing to perfect aggro control places a heavy burden on the player regardless of class. I would VASTLY PREFER that Monks simply do not generate much aggro at all! A concern was raised that in a raid situation it might be nice for Monks to take a hit before healers (and they probably still will) so I was trying to address that, specifically. Even so, I do not have a problem with any player choosing to go DPS, drawing aggro at a bad time, and dying. That's the life of a glass cannon that won't stop firing.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Swapping weapons for a stance is not new to SoD, though I agree it is clunky. And yes, that is the sensible view on tomes.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
When you say monks simply wouldn't generate much aggro, I assume you mean there would just be an innate modifier for the class. How big of a reduction do you have in mind, even just a rough estimation or range would let people give better feedback or ideas. An innate 20% aggro reduction versus a 90% aggro reduction are two different beasts altogether and knowing what end of the spectrum you're considering would be helpful.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
I'm not even sure if I would make it a flat percent rather than a function that just doesn't allow them to tank if there are other valid targets doing damage to the mob. Also, when talking about Monks helping to aux, I am of course talking about giving them measures against AE attacks. However, it is not unreasonable to assume there will be mobs where Monks are great and mobs where maybe bring another Paladin or whatever. If this line is drawn at "Mobs with a Frontal AE" that sounds normal to me.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Having it be literally "mob will kill every other person that has done damage before paying attention to the monk" could be problematic for boxing/groups/6man and some raid fights unless there was some way to toggle it or a special attack that prevented it or something. That's a pretty drastic change and I think it would require some ingame test drives of various fights/zones. I could see it working but it's really hard to visualize all of the possible ramifications.
A few people have mentioned increased regen as a way for monks to not be mana-sponges while auxing, that could work with or instead of a lifetap or heal special attack. Although if "bonus to aux tanking" just means a monk will contribute 20% reduction instead of 15% that's pretty much a non-issue because fights without frontal AEs are already easy to cap the aux reduction, whereas frontal AE fights are not.
A few people have mentioned increased regen as a way for monks to not be mana-sponges while auxing, that could work with or instead of a lifetap or heal special attack. Although if "bonus to aux tanking" just means a monk will contribute 20% reduction instead of 15% that's pretty much a non-issue because fights without frontal AEs are already easy to cap the aux reduction, whereas frontal AE fights are not.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Why is it bad, specifically, if a Monk dies before or after a Ranger on a raid fight where the tanks are already dead? I can see that it might hurt group composition for bleeding-edge 6-man stuff, though. I agree that it is the drastic (aka not 100% positive) part of this rework but it is in trade for more consistent damage, a little more utility, and better overall survivability.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
Because a monk can and has tanked raid bosses/trash to kill a mob after the real tank dies. Monks also tend to be add/offtanks for a lot of raid or 6 man stuff. Also using a monk to tank EXP groups is not an uncommon thing. People did not roll monks to do rogue level DPS but not be able to tank. If we were to compare monks to other DPS classes as far as where they should rank, they should be similar to necros, rangers and mages, but below wizards and rogues, and above bard/ench/bst.
I do not want monks to lose the ability to reliably hold aggro. Monks never asked to be top tier DPS, just to be on the same level as rng/nec/mag when using barefist. Personally I dont understand the desire to change FD as an aggro drop so badly. If you remove this functionality for monks, will you also remove the ability to drop aggro via feign death for necromancers?
Zawnza
Dalayan Adventurer
I think it would be better to have a player controlled way to lower aggro then an innate way as with other classes, that way its up to the player to keep or lose aggro as it is now, just use a different mechanic for it then feign death. There have always been situations throughout the game where monks have been an offtank/rampage tank, and yes we're primarily a dps class, but we do not do as much dps as other classes and we aren't asking for that, let us still be able to do this instead. If someone wants to use an inferior class for taking damage, or forced into a situation that requires such, then why force us to have it go specifically to a ranger that wants to stay farther away from the mobs anyway?
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
pretty much this. Rogues get evade, rangers and wizards can jolt, necros can feign, bards can jolt etc. Just make one of the monk moves a concuss ability