We All Love Monks, Here
- Thread starter Slaariel
- Start date
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
I also understood the concept of monks 'tanking' in this thread to be something similar to:
Monks can live longer than some other classes while being meleed, but nothing close to real plate tanks. They are a good candidate for grabbing agro and living a short amount of time as a temp tank, but they are clearly not the choice meat shield. They would be viable, but not close to optimal tanks in non-cutting edge duo/group situations too. While the monk is in a 'tanking' situation, their DPS suffers. (Similar to the way monks and rangers ended up working during live some years back.)
This was the 'pro tank' argument I understood as I read it. Incidentally, it is also how it worked on live for a long time so maybe I just assumed this is what dudes were/are asking for.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Okay, well I think that I know what I am going to do with this info, then! Also Susvain had the first chance to examine the set of Monk buttons which I will print out here. The Charged Up versions of special attacks CURRENTLY do the following:
Kick: Increased Damage (baby Flying Kick) at level >= 5
Round Kick: Roughly 2*Level Lifetap at level >= 10
Tiger Claw: +Aggro at level >= 20
Eagle Strike: Stun and/or Chance at Spell Interrupt for unstunnable but interruptable mobs (if those exist?) at level >= 35
Dragon Punch: Small Knockback and Root at level >= 45
Flying Kick: Higher Base Damage at level >= 50
These abilities all cost AROUND one bubble of Discipline (Lifetap costs a bit more, right now).
Kick: Increased Damage (baby Flying Kick) at level >= 5
Round Kick: Roughly 2*Level Lifetap at level >= 10
Tiger Claw: +Aggro at level >= 20
Eagle Strike: Stun and/or Chance at Spell Interrupt for unstunnable but interruptable mobs (if those exist?) at level >= 35
Dragon Punch: Small Knockback and Root at level >= 45
Flying Kick: Higher Base Damage at level >= 50
These abilities all cost AROUND one bubble of Discipline (Lifetap costs a bit more, right now).
well lets see, those classes are ranged. that is probably what you would call a trade off, oh also they have spells, and a bunch of utility type stuff. I think some monks get forage and sense heading though so there is really no big trade off.
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Are Dragon Punch/Tail Rake going to do the same thing?
1. Rev up DPS to make them more valuable on raid targets
2. Eliminate the clunky combo system (seems this is a already a thing)
3. Don't mess with FD
4. Eviscerate the prolitariat (looking at you beastlords)
If you can make them more interesting with aux tanking that adds a new dimension and is the kind of stuff that will keep people playing and attract more people to play Shards in the Dalaya, this should be happening for other classes that need love as well (rogues etc).
2. Eliminate the clunky combo system (seems this is a already a thing)
3. Don't mess with FD
4. Eviscerate the prolitariat (looking at you beastlords)
If you can make them more interesting with aux tanking that adds a new dimension and is the kind of stuff that will keep people playing and attract more people to play Shards in the Dalaya, this should be happening for other classes that need love as well (rogues etc).
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Yeah my tail rake did the same thing as dragon punch on that list.
sabuti
Dalayan Elder
the real question is am i gonna do the phat deeps or no i need to know
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Cool thread/ideas.
My thoughts:
I like all the stuff about monks being better dps and being good at auxing.
I don't think monks should be great tanks all the time, but I think it would be cool to give them an exhaustive stance that lasts maybe 30-45 seconds and gives them a big chunk of agro and mitigation/avoidance at the cost of a big chunk of their dps. Basically an "Oh Shit, the tank died! If I can keep this monster off dps for a little while longer, maybe we can finish it"
Monks either need to start with some discipline, or ethereal stance just needs to be hard coded to just last a certain amount of time, because ethereal is really important for pulling, and in a few places its just about required to have an invuln FD puller.
I really think bare fists should be by far the best dps option, but maybe even code in additional costs, like the monk loses all AC while bare fists.
If I am understanding things correctly, when a monk fills discipline, they get their H2H DPS stance. Does this mean a monk will have to frequently swap between weapons? I don't know how much I like that because of how clunky changing weapons in SoD can be, especially if discipline fills relatively quickly. I think I would rather see discipline spent on the special attacks or stances.
I think we could make all monk FDs no-fail with the 2-3 tic 99% slow if monks can generate less agro while dpsing (maybe bare fists = very little agro generation, making it the go-to dps style, and weapons are swapped in if the monk might want to take agro or duo or w/e). I know this is a powerful change, but how does FD fail really benefit the game? FD is mostly for pulling 6man/raid content, and its no fun for an entire raid to sit around rezzing because FD failed. Make it no-fail with the slow so its no longer used to dodge AEs mid fight, but better for pulling or wipe recovery.
My thoughts:
I like all the stuff about monks being better dps and being good at auxing.
I don't think monks should be great tanks all the time, but I think it would be cool to give them an exhaustive stance that lasts maybe 30-45 seconds and gives them a big chunk of agro and mitigation/avoidance at the cost of a big chunk of their dps. Basically an "Oh Shit, the tank died! If I can keep this monster off dps for a little while longer, maybe we can finish it"
Monks either need to start with some discipline, or ethereal stance just needs to be hard coded to just last a certain amount of time, because ethereal is really important for pulling, and in a few places its just about required to have an invuln FD puller.
I really think bare fists should be by far the best dps option, but maybe even code in additional costs, like the monk loses all AC while bare fists.
If I am understanding things correctly, when a monk fills discipline, they get their H2H DPS stance. Does this mean a monk will have to frequently swap between weapons? I don't know how much I like that because of how clunky changing weapons in SoD can be, especially if discipline fills relatively quickly. I think I would rather see discipline spent on the special attacks or stances.
I think we could make all monk FDs no-fail with the 2-3 tic 99% slow if monks can generate less agro while dpsing (maybe bare fists = very little agro generation, making it the go-to dps style, and weapons are swapped in if the monk might want to take agro or duo or w/e). I know this is a powerful change, but how does FD fail really benefit the game? FD is mostly for pulling 6man/raid content, and its no fun for an entire raid to sit around rezzing because FD failed. Make it no-fail with the slow so its no longer used to dodge AEs mid fight, but better for pulling or wipe recovery.
Monks are not *fine*, lets start with that! Monks are lacking and need a buff. I think that pretty much everyone here agrees with that except for deein maybe. So lets start with that in mind. because if we cant agree on that then we will get more "give a little take a lot" nerfs.
I think that monks are pretty much fine in groups and I think that monk tanking really doesn't need to be changed at all, I think it is in a pretty good place, I am not the best tank in a group in Citadel but I can in Kaesora alright. That feels about right to me. They do some dps in groups and they get to pull a lot and offtank a lot and I think in the casual xp group setting they are pretty ok. I think that any changes that would break role this shouldn't happen.
Monk's biggest problem is just that they don't have a good role to fill in raids, there is no good reason to bring them for most high tier fights. They don't have a defensive role or an offensive role. They have a utility role in feign death but unfortunately most content is being designed away from that and it really plays almost no part in actual boss fights other than as an agro dump. So what they really need is a defensive and offensive role.
Defensive: Slaariels idea
---I think the idea of giving them a role as the "go-to aux tank" is a pretty creative way to do that even if it is not usable in all fights. I do think that it would need to be a very substantial change though to make standing in front of raid bosses and attacking into them not suicidal. It doesn't have to work on every fight but some combination of riposte/whirlwind/ miscellaneous strike avoidance/mitigation and possibly massive enhanced % based regen or lifetap would be pretty good. (also 120hp lifetap is pretty menial at higher tiers, can we try to as much as possible use percentage based formulas rather than fixed numbers)
Offensive: Deeins Idea
----They should have some way to add DPS to long fights where they lack but maybe not have it directly come from their own damage. I think that their DPS stance could be something that wears down the mobs AC and Resists over time. So that a single monk in a long fight would be able to add some dps to the whole raid, and multiple monks could add to the raids DPS even more over time. I am talking like maybe 2-3% armor/resist removal per monk per minute from the mob. Some sort of a debuff proc that accumulates stacks. Maybe it maxes out at 10% per monk? It doesn't have to work exactly like that but something that makes the raids as a wholes dmg better over time as a result of having monks there. The monk carefully studies his foes in combat and calls out it's weaknesses to his colleagues. You would still want the primary dmg dealers but you wouldn't necessarily be gimping your raid by bringing a few monks.
I think that monks are pretty much fine in groups and I think that monk tanking really doesn't need to be changed at all, I think it is in a pretty good place, I am not the best tank in a group in Citadel but I can in Kaesora alright. That feels about right to me. They do some dps in groups and they get to pull a lot and offtank a lot and I think in the casual xp group setting they are pretty ok. I think that any changes that would break role this shouldn't happen.
Monk's biggest problem is just that they don't have a good role to fill in raids, there is no good reason to bring them for most high tier fights. They don't have a defensive role or an offensive role. They have a utility role in feign death but unfortunately most content is being designed away from that and it really plays almost no part in actual boss fights other than as an agro dump. So what they really need is a defensive and offensive role.
Defensive: Slaariels idea
---I think the idea of giving them a role as the "go-to aux tank" is a pretty creative way to do that even if it is not usable in all fights. I do think that it would need to be a very substantial change though to make standing in front of raid bosses and attacking into them not suicidal. It doesn't have to work on every fight but some combination of riposte/whirlwind/ miscellaneous strike avoidance/mitigation and possibly massive enhanced % based regen or lifetap would be pretty good. (also 120hp lifetap is pretty menial at higher tiers, can we try to as much as possible use percentage based formulas rather than fixed numbers)
Offensive: Deeins Idea
----They should have some way to add DPS to long fights where they lack but maybe not have it directly come from their own damage. I think that their DPS stance could be something that wears down the mobs AC and Resists over time. So that a single monk in a long fight would be able to add some dps to the whole raid, and multiple monks could add to the raids DPS even more over time. I am talking like maybe 2-3% armor/resist removal per monk per minute from the mob. Some sort of a debuff proc that accumulates stacks. Maybe it maxes out at 10% per monk? It doesn't have to work exactly like that but something that makes the raids as a wholes dmg better over time as a result of having monks there. The monk carefully studies his foes in combat and calls out it's weaknesses to his colleagues. You would still want the primary dmg dealers but you wouldn't necessarily be gimping your raid by bringing a few monks.
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donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
I think that it is great that Monks are being looked at and that this change is apparently going to happen after a thread of discussion instead of being done in the dead of night by greased up ninjas like the combo system. It does still kind of seem, from the OP, that the grown ups talked about it and have 90% of the plan in place and just want validation on the last 10% before it happens, but small progress is progress.
all this talk about fd and mend shouldnt let a monk be a "t2" dps is pretty lame. ranger/necro/mage all have their own utility outside of just dpsing. mages give mana back to raid along with pet weapons and armor that increase all pet classes. ranger can heal enough to save a group healer as well as do stupid amounts of burst dps on burns. after that fact they tank better than anything but tanks hands down if needed. necro have fd/taps/DA that makes their survival among some of the best for dps as well as the ability to burn pretty decently as well, specifically when compared to monks burn (which is non existant outside of clickies). the fact everyone just keeps saying dps like it's the only thing that defines a class. monks have literally no dps stance outside of s2 in the end game.
when it comes to tanking monks do not tank much better than any other class with the right item(s). if they were to tank much worse it'd only really suck for the people without them. but i do agree that having the option to do either "t2" dps or tank better than most at the cost of one another would be pretty generous. especially if the person can control which is in play.
when it comes to tanking monks do not tank much better than any other class with the right item(s). if they were to tank much worse it'd only really suck for the people without them. but i do agree that having the option to do either "t2" dps or tank better than most at the cost of one another would be pretty generous. especially if the person can control which is in play.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I also really liked the idea of an Intensity type proc on flying kick. Ties in with the "studying the target to do more damage" lore, and it could even have some special code to reset if the monk takes agro, reiterating the "if you are being a good dps class, you cant tank as well, if you start tanking, you are going to lose substancial dps"
This wouldn't need to be massive, but something that starts at adding 25-40dps, and by 10 minutes (the end of a long boss fight) adds 200-300 dps ontop of normal damage. That 200-300dps would be very rarely seen, as you need a long boss encounter that doesnt change names/depop through phases, but it rewards a dps-focused monk in those situations with some substantial dps.
Endgame top-tier dps (ranger, necro, mage, wizard, rogue, enc) can do like 1200-1400 on normal-long duration fights, so if an endgame monk, in dps mode did like 1000 base, and maybe 1300 towards the end of a long fight where they dont tank at all, that would seem reasonable to me. The only DPS left are bard (almost that much dps, with massive utility), beastlotd (bad dps, with moderate utility), and monk (moderate dps, low utility)
This wouldn't need to be massive, but something that starts at adding 25-40dps, and by 10 minutes (the end of a long boss fight) adds 200-300 dps ontop of normal damage. That 200-300dps would be very rarely seen, as you need a long boss encounter that doesnt change names/depop through phases, but it rewards a dps-focused monk in those situations with some substantial dps.
Endgame top-tier dps (ranger, necro, mage, wizard, rogue, enc) can do like 1200-1400 on normal-long duration fights, so if an endgame monk, in dps mode did like 1000 base, and maybe 1300 towards the end of a long fight where they dont tank at all, that would seem reasonable to me. The only DPS left are bard (almost that much dps, with massive utility), beastlotd (bad dps, with moderate utility), and monk (moderate dps, low utility)
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Kick/FK- I couldn't eyeball how much of a damage increase they were so no comment.
Round Kick- a 130 lifetap on every single round kick would be less than the current lifetap combo, but with the disc cost in the new system you'd only get the lifetap on less than half of your round kicks. So overall it's a very large reduction in self healing, I hope it either scales better or we get something else like the regen idea to even it out. My current lifetap combo does 900-1000 depending on time of day and stuff like that.
Tiger Claw- I don't know how much aggro it is but as long as it does the job it should be fine.
Tail/Dragon- Almost nothing I kill even while soloing/boxing is susceptible to roots, let alone in 6mans or raids. I'd probably only use this to grief paladins for all the years of their knockbacks causing me to miss melee rounds.
Eagle Strike- Useful in some situations if the spell interrupt works even on stun-immune mobs but like you said, I'm not even sure this exists. Maybe bake the spell interrupt into the knockback/root and do something else with Eagle Strike?
You're right, rangers already fill that niche. Top tier dps, second tier tank, with additional utility on top. And yet people understand that rangers aren't viable endgame tanks so doing good dps is why you bring them. Monks currently have to severely reduce their tanking ability to do less dps than rangers, and aren't as reliable at being an emergency tank for brief periods to finish a mob if the tank dies. If monks are going to remain at the "better than utility dps, worse than real dps" place they are in now, they need to be able to contribute something more. Being second tier dps while also making the tank take a bit less damage is a good idea, so is the fists of fury mechanic so we can actually burn a mob when it's called for (pretty much every other dps/utility class gets better burn options than monks now through either spamming nukes, better stances, Crescendo, etc).
One last unrelated comment- If all of the special attacks lower your disc, and you need full disc for Fists of Fury, does this mean optimal monk dps is "auto attack with weapons without using any specials, take them off at full disc to use FoF and still don't use any special attacks so FoF lasts longer"? Because it seems like that's how this would play out and I don't think that sounds very good. If I'm misunderstanding part of the system please let me know.
If anything, it seems like specials should ADD discipline, so after a few minutes in combat using your specials, you can use FoF if the situation calls for it. Having specials subtract discipline makes using them and FoF an either-or thing which doesn't make sense to me.
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Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
As I understand it, this. You can choose to do steady DPS/offtanking/utility in form of flying kick button mashing, aggro generation via tiger claw and what not, or you can choose to do a tad lower DPS during "average" phases by not pushing those buttons, and then unload with FoF on those burn phases.
Obviously I do not have any numbers yet, but I think this adds a nice element of strategy.
cornelweezy
Dalayan Elder
I don't get monk class design right now and I think a huge part of it is that they don't have an independent mechanic as a melee class.
The melee classes are:
- bard (jack of all trades, spells during movement and no lost melee rounds but also not great melee dps, good procs, not a terrible tank)
- rogue (assassin type, single target burst dps, can't tank so has some evade buttons)
- ranger (long ranged, reagent dependent sustained DPS, pinch of offtanking and a dash of druid utility)
- beastlord (imo currently the class with the absolute worst design in game but I guess a fighter with shaman utility and a pet with dps procs, and grossly overrated buffs)
- monk
Ignoring bard, the former two classes are your chain DPS, the latter two are your leather dps. One of the chain DPS should be able to tank decently in the absence of a tank class and one of the leather DPS should be able to tank decently. This makes sense.
Monks need an independent DPS mechanic. FD is not a class defining trait for them for them in the same vein Tracking is not enough for Rangers. I think the DPS mechanic should be close ranged AE damage with their auto attacks. Keep the stamina resource mechanic and use it for their buttons. Those buttons should each be AE attacks that have an unresistable thematic effect as long as the attack itself lands. One AE lifetap, one AE stun, one AE nuke, one AE "jolt", so on and so forth. All of these should scale with level in way that makes them effective throughout the tiers. "Blue gem" if you will. Their tanking ability should be dependent on avoidance, not mitigation (rangers), so if and when they do actually get hit, they get hit hard, and if they can't avoid getting hit, then they can FD. For that matter, FD success rate should be much higher across the board. Now monks have a vision. While rogues and rangers focus their high dps on one target while the tank tanks, the monk is systematically brutalizing the whole pack of mobs from the back. If he pulls agro, he can offtank til the heals come, he can "jolt" punch, the mob dies, or the tank pulls it off. If all else fails, he FDs and then hops right back in.
I think it's silly to theme ideal monk dps around h2h too. They should get a bonus for using fists, certainly, but not be handicapped otherwise. The weapon swapping thing makes no sense. You can just take MNK off certain types of weapons or put them onto others if it's really a thing.
This is my idea.
Maybe to differentiate between normal FD and no-fail is if you have a mob ttargetedor not when you hit FD. The mechanic could work like how bracer procs work.
On live all the lesser combat abilities like tail take, eagle strike did special debuffs like stun, snare, etc.
Thumbs up for combo system gone.
On live all the lesser combat abilities like tail take, eagle strike did special debuffs like stun, snare, etc.
Thumbs up for combo system gone.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
STAFF CAVEAT -- THIS IS NOT MY DEPARTMENT AND ITS BALANCE, CODING, IMPLEMENTATION, RESTRICTIONS, OR DENIAL ALL PROBABLY WOULD INVOLVE ME INDIRECTLY ONLY, IF AT ALL.
So your vision for monks is dead enchanters and being exactly 0 DPS wherever mezzes are happening? Gotcha!
cornelweezy
Dalayan Elder
Yeah, actually, as I don't know how this would impact enchanters at all. No more than Paladins using their AEs or magicians using rains. As a guy who plays an enchanter, the extraordinarily few times I'm asked to mez in exp situations, I can see the tank moving the rest of the mobs away with easy or even simpler, my having to use root instead. The mez thing is such a minimal issue it isn't an issue at all. Root is sneaky the best cc in SoD anyway.