We All Love Monks, Here

Doing always-on, uncontrollable AOE with melee attacks would be hugely annoying in a lot of places. And if that was the monk niche, I could see us being the same as paladins were years ago... Amazing for exp grinding, gimp for hard 6mans or raids, which is kind of where monks already are. If there was a way to switch between the AOE version of the attacks and a single target that did slightly higher numbers (but obviously less overall than the AOE hitting several things) that would be cool.
 
cornelweezy said:
I don't get monk class design right now and I think a huge part of it is that they don't have an independent mechanic as a melee class.

The melee classes are:
- bard (jack of all trades, spells during movement and no lost melee rounds but also not great melee dps, good procs, not a terrible tank)
- rogue (assassin type, single target burst dps, can't tank so has some evade buttons)
- ranger (long ranged, reagent dependent sustained DPS, pinch of offtanking and a dash of druid utility)
- beastlord (imo currently the class with the absolute worst design in game but I guess a fighter with shaman utility and a pet with dps procs, and grossly overrated buffs)
- monk

Ignoring bard, the former two classes are your chain DPS, the latter two are your leather dps. One of the chain DPS should be able to tank decently in the absence of a tank class and one of the leather DPS should be able to tank decently. This makes sense.

Monks need an independent DPS mechanic. FD is not a class defining trait for them for them in the same vein Tracking is not enough for Rangers. I think the DPS mechanic should be close ranged AE damage with their auto attacks. Keep the stamina resource mechanic and use it for their buttons. Those buttons should each be AE attacks that have an unresistable thematic effect as long as the attack itself lands. One AE lifetap, one AE stun, one AE nuke, one AE "jolt", so on and so forth. All of these should scale with level in way that makes them effective throughout the tiers. "Blue gem" if you will. Their tanking ability should be dependent on avoidance, not mitigation (rangers), so if and when they do actually get hit, they get hit hard, and if they can't avoid getting hit, then they can FD. For that matter, FD success rate should be much higher across the board. Now monks have a vision. While rogues and rangers focus their high dps on one target while the tank tanks, the monk is systematically brutalizing the whole pack of mobs from the back. If he pulls agro, he can offtank til the heals come, he can "jolt" punch, the mob dies, or the tank pulls it off. If all else fails, he FDs and then hops right back in.

I think it's silly to theme ideal monk dps around h2h too. They should get a bonus for using fists, certainly, but not be handicapped otherwise. The weapon swapping thing makes no sense. You can just take MNK off certain types of weapons or put them onto others if it's really a thing.

This is my idea.
Click to expand...
Just an observation, but part of the reason combos suck is because special attacks can chain miss 3+ times in a row. Having timed buttons only work when the attack lands does not resolve this chain miss problem.
 
Slaar did tell me that the charged-up version of specials in the new system automatically hit, just like the second and third hits in the combo system. Not sure if that got posted here or not.
 
Daffie said:
Just an observation, but part of the reason combos suck is because special attacks can chain miss 3+ times in a row. Having timed buttons only work when the attack lands does not resolve this chain miss problem.
Click to expand...

yeah, sure, and maybe accuracy numbers on special attacks could be looked at. my point is that the monk class needs something unique to stand out and make them relevant. If that something is a mechanic that operates through autos, cool. If it's a mechanic that operates through buttons, cool. Even if's something that works between the synergy of both, even cooler. But it's gotta be something different and effective and niche and ultimately powerful when it's a monk's time to shine. Because that's what going to make the monk class competitive to outsiders and fun for the people playing the monks.
 
If monks gain the ability to do better AE damage, I'm okay with that, but having that be their niche is meh to me, given that 95% of 6 man and raid content is verse 1 monster.

Just give them good dps in general, through whatever mechanic people like, give them half decent, or short duration/low dps tanking, and some survivability utility (regen, lifetap, mitigation/avoidance, w/e) and the class would be in a good place IMO.
 
Lleoc said:
all this talk about fd and mend shouldnt let a monk be a "t2" dps is pretty lame. ranger/necro/mage all have their own utility outside of just dpsing. mages give mana back to raid along with pet weapons and armor that increase all pet classes. ranger can heal enough to save a group healer as well as do stupid amounts of burst dps on burns. after that fact they tank better than anything but tanks hands down if needed. necro have fd/taps/DA that makes their survival among some of the best for dps as well as the ability to burn pretty decently as well, specifically when compared to monks burn (which is non existant outside of clickies). the fact everyone just keeps saying dps like it's the only thing that defines a class. monks have literally no dps stance outside of s2 in the end game.

when it comes to tanking monks do not tank much better than any other class with the right item(s). if they were to tank much worse it'd only really suck for the people without them. but i do agree that having the option to do either "t2" dps or tank better than most at the cost of one another would be pretty generous. especially if the person can control which is in play.
Click to expand...
this is pretty much my argument in different words
 
For WW stance is there a way to diminish proc's to a 4th of its damage when in that Stance Slaar? Cause if you're Whirlwinding and hitting up to 4 targets it would only make sense that your melee dmg on each is a 4th of what it would be (okay technically a 3rd as we only triple) it would only make sense to split said proc damage just as much.

Also as for the Regen idea maybe convert the lifetap from roundkick into a HoT effect. This would still leave mnks with not to great sustain but a good substitute for said regen. if you feel like this component lacks enough heal u can do a small life-tap for so much then a HoT that heals the same amount of a prolonged time.
 
WW (like any other AE) should do significantly more total damage than single target damage. Otherwise there would be no point in AEing to begin with.

I really think it would be a cool, unique utility for monks to have some substantial regen. Regen isnt significant when tanking, since stuff can kill you in less than one tic, but there are a ton of instances where a class having good regen would serve as cool utility, without being OP.

I'm still worried about Fist of Fury forcing the monk constantly swap weapons as their go-to style (unless they just stay H2H always), and/or it just being something that monks watch their Discipline fill and drain over and over without interacting with it much.

What if:

A monk with full Discipline achieves "Tranquil Combat" - they gain 5%/tic hp regen, and a moderate dps boost. This would be standard, sustained dps, with the regen utility. Then Fist of Fury can be a stance that will drain Discipline down, for substantial dps boost. Standard dps would be just staying in Tranquil Combat, but whenever there was an important burn phase, the monk could go into Fist of Fury for super dps, at the cost of losing some dps and regen afterwards while rebuilding.

My concern, from my understanding of the suggested system, is that ideal dps would actually be to just meele and build disciple, let fist of fury burn it down (potentially having to swap weapons every time this happens), then repeat. Meaning the monk never actually uses any special attacks or anything. I would suggest having the special attacks remain minor, but actually ADD a bit of discipline, or make them stronger if they are going to cost discipline. I could never see a monk using a 130hp tap over a sooner dps stance.

These are just ideas, there are lots of good options posted in this thread, but what I think/hope most people agree we should see is:

Increased DPS, monks should be on par, or close to rangers, necros, mages, etc. Hopefully this can have some unique/interesting components (intensify/improved damage to single target with time, controllable burn mechanics/stance)

Some sort of tank utility - I like just a medium short duration stance with super agro+nice tank stats+reduced dps, but there are other options. A short duration stance can actually be made powerful since it will never be viable for long term tanking, but adds nice utility. (I know slaar initially suggested otherwise, but monks have had a niche as an offtank for a long time in SoD, and it seems most players like that)

Maybe some other utility? Aux Tank Advantages? Regen? AC Debuffs? No-Fail FD? If monks aren't going to be a top tier dps, they really should have a bit more utility IMO.
 
Yeah what he said.

Also according to the Tome of Knowledge, it's trolls that get a bonus to regen, and it's a 15% bonus. That doesn't seem all that substantial tbh, plus it's pretty much impossible to acquire fame nowadays so it's probably a non issue.
 
Last edited:
I'm not going to pretend like I know much if anything about how to play a monk or what role they should fill, but as to
Silosobi said:
My concern, from my understanding of the suggested system, is that ideal dps would actually be to just meele and build disciple, let fist of fury burn it down (potentially having to swap weapons every time this happens), then repeat. Meaning the monk never actually uses any special attacks or anything. I would suggest having the special attacks remain minor, but actually ADD a bit of discipline, or make them stronger if they are going to cost discipline. I could never see a monk using a 130hp tap over a sooner dps stance.
Click to expand...

If the fists of fury is on a cooldown timer and the discipline bar fills faster than that cooldown, then these special attacks could cost discipline and it would still be reasonable. Similar to a warrior - if you are only using one of their stances, your yellow bar will almost always be full because it refills while waiting on cooldown.

Essentially, a monk would be best served starting out by letting it fill and throwing in the fists of fury and then while waiting on cooldown could mix in their other special attacks. I don't know if this would be a good thing or what Slaar has in mind but it certainly is possible to make special attacks consume discipline and still have them be used.
 
UPDATE:

Monk aux-tanking bonuses are coded in currently sitting at a decent damage reduction and increased dodge chance vs. any physical attacks by mobs they are aux-tanking as well as a slight bump to the aux cap and slightly increased max aux contribution from the Monk.

I am thinking of making the power-moves (resource consuming versions of punches and kicks) divided along stance lines. Or perhaps just two stances. For instance, Aggressive stance lets you spend disc on kicks for max damage while Defensive stance allows you to spend disc on punches (for their utility). That way you can build disc up while kicking even in defensive or other stance and then go aggressive to dish out the damage or stay in defensive and use your cool defensive moves.

I could confine this behavior to /s 2 and 3 or split stances into Defensive, Aggressive, and Neutral (no power moves). Or I could re-use the underutilized stances somehow (4, 5, 7, 12, 13). Let me know what you think!
 
Also, I am wavering on the Fists of Fury idea as a whole. Seems to not mesh with the power moves as designed and I really like the discipline system as it sits. I may just make it an extreme stance! Can weigh in on this as well.

Editing to add: I really want H2H to have a real benefit but not be default so if you want to talk about H2H keep this in mind in your proposed solutions!
 
I think it would be cool if glove procs were made more powerful/interesting than run of the mill DDs that are mostly similar to weapon procs. Some could be dd or AOE that boosts their overall damage above weapons of a similar tier, others could have similar dps to weapons but be situationally useful because they have a defensive or utility proc.

Some high end BOE gloves already do this a bit; Saturated spirit gloves have a proc that is worth a relatively large amount of dps compared to other BOEs and most low/mid tier weapons. Flowing Red Leaf-Wraps have a lifetap that can help increase your survivability while soloing, auxing, ramp taking, etc.

As far as the current system of +5 HtH = 1 weapon damage goes, I don't think it's balanced very well with the current itemization in the game. If it's scrapped entirely though, something substantial would need to be done because 13/18 is a pretty horrific ratio at the high end. Either greatly boosted ele damage on gloves, some other way to cause fist ratio to scale, or revamping the current HtH mods on items.
 
Slaariel said:
UPDATE:

Monk aux-tanking bonuses are coded in currently sitting at a decent damage reduction and increased dodge chance vs. any physical attacks by mobs they are aux-tanking as well as a slight bump to the aux cap and slightly increased max aux contribution from the Monk.

I am thinking of making the power-moves (resource consuming versions of punches and kicks) divided along stance lines. Or perhaps just two stances. For instance, Aggressive stance lets you spend disc on kicks for max damage while Defensive stance allows you to spend disc on punches (for their utility). That way you can build disc up while kicking even in defensive or other stance and then go aggressive to dish out the damage or stay in defensive and use your cool defensive moves.

I could confine this behavior to /s 2 and 3 or split stances into Defensive, Aggressive, and Neutral (no power moves). Or I could re-use the underutilized stances somehow (4, 5, 7, 12, 13). Let me know what you think!
Click to expand...

What amount of endurance/resource/monkstuff will monks sit at during rest? Specifically, I am wondering how the new system is going to work with some of the existing styles. While many of the existing ones are worthless Ethereal is not. I'm trying to visualize needing to pull after downtime, and having almost no resource pool available in order to /s 14.
 
Monks sit at 20% out of combat but! I am re-working the stance costs to accommodate this I mean that can figure into the re-working.

Also fixing a class through itemization is not acceptable to me. I don't want Monks to be Lesser Beings until they get one of a set of tier-locked glove upgrades that is far too much importance in one slot (worse than even Rogue daggers, I think, and a lot more annoying to deal with). I'm okay with gloves having procs and I am okay with gloves being desirable for their procs, but as an avenue to class balance, this is not a solution.
 
I just talked to Kwai Chang Caine, and he likes what he is reading so far...
Reading that you are wavering on the Fists of Fury idea, will there be some burst DPS attack/stance? I know that I would like to see some sort of burst dps thingy to use occasionally once tranquility (endurance/resource/whatever) is built up. I could see this having a resource drain and a recast timer on it, similar to the warrior style "finish him" in that it has a large endurance usage, to help balance the ability.
 
Slaariel said:
I agree, but I don't want to encounter the situation described above (where the ideal tactic is to use NO discipline until full then use ALL of it for punching). That is not fun or cool!
Click to expand...
Maybe something like this:
It could be a timed ability (like one use every x minutes), and instead of costing a ton of resource it costs 1. When it is activated it instantly fills the resource bar, and then is active until the monk is out of resource (non-exhausting because being exhausted is sucky.) The defensive ability could work this way too. If it is done this way, a monk can't chain it because of the recast, and it's duration could scale with gear/aa/tomes if resource was added to monk items/aa/tomes. Additionally, the potential exploiting of this 'full resource gain then switch to power attacks' could very easily be minimized in various and/or creative ways.
 
Good idea and honestly I wouldn't mind a timed ability that just filled the bar anyway... and if you chose to use it for super punch mode that would be on you. Probably a decent interval like a once per raid encounter timer (similar to Lay Hands?). Full discipline on its own would not give super punch mode, but using the ability would give you super punch mode and also full discipline to take advantage of it. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
 
Slaariel said:
Good idea and honestly I wouldn't mind a timed ability that just filled the bar anyway... and if you chose to use it for super punch mode that would be on you. Probably a decent interval like a once per raid encounter timer (similar to Lay Hands?). Full discipline on its own would not give super punch mode, but using the ability would give you super punch mode and also full discipline to take advantage of it. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Click to expand...
yeah giving monks some kind of burst would be pretty neat, similar to most other dps classes having some kind of burn ability
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom