Word of spirit (Hijacked: Veil of Marlow)

[Glamrin]

It is well known that the only type of pbae spells that shadowknights currently get is wave of enfeeblement at lvl 30 and word of spirit at 49. When more and more encounters out there tend to pop multiple adds or have linked mobs, even in exp zones (recently citadel was redesigned with a lot of interesting changes, but also with mobs spawning multiple adds and some linked pulls with some mobs) this remains a setback for chosing a sk tank instead of a paladin.

Now it isnt much, but I noticed that the spell Word of Spirit has a followup spell in the same line: Word of Souls. This spell is currently available for the other two classes ie Necros and Clerics. Would it be possible to add SHD's to this as well?

Word of Spirit
Classes: NEC(29) SHD(49) CLR(29)
Dmg: 97 - 103 (L32)

Word of Souls
Classes: NEC(39) CLR(39)
Dmg: 147 - 153 (L41)

perhaps it could even be made to continue rising 2dmg per lvl till 65? ie 147(L39) - 195(L65) and be given to sk's at lvl 59?

 

[Xach]

Even if Shadowknights got that spell, it wouldn't be the magical cure you're looking for.

 

[Otcho]

tank more mobs proc bp more, im pretty sure this was suggested in the past and was met was unbelievable hatred by all non sks but i have to admit xach is right.

 

[Glamrin]

Even if Shadowknights got that spell, it wouldn't be the magical cure you're looking for.

I'm very aware that it wouldnt be. but it would be something, and as a sk every little tiny bit helps. As the previous spell in the line is in the sk arsenal atm, it wouldnt be changing the class to add this spell to the sk as well. The upgrade in the spell is small enough that I think anyone could agree that it wouldnt overpower the class.

The solution would be entire exp zones designed without the paladin in mind, ie no linked mobs, not more than 1 or 2 adds popping at once. No advantage to doing and no need to do more than 3 mobs at once. Atm, everytime one of those situations with 5+ mobs happens, and a sk starts single targetting them getting agro on all of them, thats another paladin check and any group with a paladin tank will get more exp faster and with less work.
More memblurring mobs, mobs that fd groupmembers and things like the firepatches in citadel would be fun. Problem is that even though there are mobs like those designed, all of those zones contains mobs that does things leaving the sk (and the warrior) tank behind, and it's really enough with one such situation in the zone to make bringing a paladin over a sk a good idea. A real challenge to the developers, a big one! make one exp zone where it would be advantageous to bring a shadowknight over a paladin tank, and where exp and other rewards makes it worth going. It would need to be designed so that bringing more than three mobs at the same time would somehow hurt bad, even when the group or tank becomes better than the content hp/ac/tankwise. Doing fun and interesting effects designed to make the encounter harder instead of multiple mobs. (This isnt a complaint on the new content btw, it has a lot of interesting effects and really smart things happening, but every now and then theres one of those many mob scenarios popping up again).

Anyways back on topic. Im very aware that adding another small pbae dd to the sk arsenal wouldnt solve the problem and this spell would naturally not bring the sk anywhere close to a paladins ae tanking, that wouldnt be the intent. but the spell is in the same spelline, so it would make sense with sk's having it, and every little bit does help.

 

[nikosk]

Could be cool to have both these pbaoe DDs loaded to at least help get some initial aggro.

 

[Mythryn]

Good luck crusading for the cause gentlemen. Hopefully your points don't fall on deaf ears.

But yes, an additional 50 or whatever damage is going to do very little agro. Coupled with Surge of Enfeeblement though, it might be a start.

 

[Xach]

I hate to break be the one to break this information to you all, but all of those AE spells are complete garbage. The casting time on Wave of Enfeeblement and Word of Spirit with CSI7 are 2.2 and 1.8 respectively, their higher level counterparts have even longer cast times. Coupled with the fact they have zero resist adjusts, they simply are not good spells and if you even bother to load the versions Shadowknights already have you've already failed.

If you know what order to cast Terror of Kaezul, Terror of Marlow and Assault of Shadows you can put 350+ hate on each mob in little over a second each. Taking the time to cast a crappy AE to get resisted when you could be chaining terrors is never a good idea. And I don't know what spell line ups you guys are running, but with Brazen Bull and Sublimate Soul being added to the roster with Ikisith, I don't have any room for unreliable spells. Assuming the average pull in an exp group is 3 or so mobs, if your group can't wait 3 seconds to start dps'ing then you need to find new people to play with.

Simply put, the only thing you need to AE aggro like a paladin is good clicking skills.

 

[Glamrin]

ok let me see.. So let me give you a few scenarios. Im going to spell it out, because obviously its needed.

situation a: I go to Miel C, I run around agro about 30 mobs. I have max ds on me. Then I Use mezstance.. I mez all of them.. then I run up with my shaman... who happens to have -8% agression. I keep him at maximum distance for spells... I heal the sk, I dont slow the mobs because slowing means less ds... Im not gonna go into further details about how to further maximize the agro gain from mezstance but instead I move on... I have 30 mobs... what do I do? well I cycle some mobs and actually use my pbae debuff, I also single target some but there are 30+ mobs.. I dont single target all of them thats too much work.... Next I use my pb ae dd on them, switch target use pb ae dd, lifetap, pb ae dd. naturally I also use shaman for pbae disease dot and rain some bla bla.

Points made in this scenario: In a farming situation where other group members know what they are doing, the pbae's can keep enough agro up. The pbae dd although not much also adds a little bit of dps to the ds... the dps increase helps, just ask any paladin with consecrate. It might not be much but at full tomes, the higher lvl spell would make a difference.. to dmg output, and some to keeping agro.

Scenario two: Rust group. So sk runs around and brings 10 - 15 mobs (the paladin brings 20). He doesnt use mezstance because he has a group and dont want to wait for stamina to come back between every pull and these mobs hits just a lil bit harder which means having stamina is actually a good thing.
So while he gathered mobs up he was doing single target hate on some of them, he also melee'd some for just a lil agro... He runs towards group but still at a safe distance to not have mobs move around. He starts casting pbaedebuff. the act of casting will mean mobs wont run past him for group... The added dd here wont do much for dps, but if max distance is used, adding the slightly better pbae dd in here would help some with initital agro, and that triggerhappy wizard and mage wont steal agro as they are keeping their distance from the mobs. After that naturally.. its only 10 - 15 mobs.. so sk starts cycling through the mobs, doing a pbae dd now and then to make sure he dont lose agro on mobs while he is cycling. cycling through 10 - 15 mobs takes a lil bit of time.

points: the extra dd in the higher pbae dd isnt much.. it wont work miracles.. but it will be a little difference and it will be enough to mean more "paladin" type pulls can be made, if utilized correctly, and it will mean more exp and more cash for the group. Especially with sk at full tomes of power. better initial agro for a start.

Scenario three: Exp group in citadel of the claw. Lets start with the easy scenario. group has moved up to bridgekeeper.. in this scenario there is only 2 adds at a time.. the pbae dd's are useless. single target agro works fine. however after that, we dont wanna wait a lot of time in the rooms after. So each group of guys training, comes with one big guy and 6 small guys. Thats 7 mobs total if your math skills are rusty.
Now the paladin tank would just take that group and the group of 3+1 at the same time.. thus he saves his group some time in killing and makes more exp. but the sk wont be doing that.. still killing more mobs at same time when some of them have low hp, is faster. 7 mobs... cycling through that at the initial stage takes time so the sk starts of with terror on the leader then uses pbae's for initial agro on the other 6 before he starts cycling through them with single target agro. once in a while he might toss in the new pbae dd.
In this scenario the bigger pbae dd wont make that big a difference, it wont be a magical solution to fix the problem, far from. But still as mentioned in the original thread, every little bit helps and 7 mobs still takes time cycling through for terrors. having a pbae dd that does 200 base dmg to each mob would be just a lil bit more agro.. it would help initially, and it might just be enough to help just a lil bit during killing them. It wont be paladin agro, far from it. You will still need to cycle through the mobs for single target agro, but it will add a little bit.

scenario 4: exp group in citadel of the claw, random named encounter (wee im not giving away named infos ). After engage adds arrive a few at a time, they go for the group. position your in makes it hard to see all for single target agroing and your groupmembers have gotten initial agro.
The extra agro from the dd just might might might be enough for groupmember to be able to run over to you, as a good groupmember would do if you were a paladin, so that your pbae's can take agro on all the adds (read more than 3 mobs at the same time). Once you have jsut a lil bit of agro, without having lost agro on the named cuz you had to switch targets and work 3-6 new targets that was beating on your group, you can start single target agroing them.

7 mob + scenarios are far from uncommon. During the time it takes you to cycle through that with single target agro, atleast one of your groupmembers are bound to have done something to take some agro, be it cast a heal on you or start dpsing. No a 50%- 100% increase in the base dmg dealt from a pbae dd wont solve this, but it will help. These are the amount of mobs I currently tank as an sk, when I play a paladin I tank a lot more.

So there it is spelled out. No it isnt a magical solution. No it isn't a huge difference. But yes it would definitely help, if you use the tool for what it is.

 

[Otcho]

I hate to break be the one to break this information to you all, but all of those AE spells are complete garbage. The casting time on Wave of Enfeeblement and Word of Spirit with CSI7 are 2.2 and 1.8 respectively, their higher level counterparts have even longer cast times. Coupled with the fact they have zero resist adjusts, they simply are not good spells and if you even bother to load the versions Shadowknights already have you've already failed.

If you know what order to cast Terror of Kaezul, Terror of Marlow and Assault of Shadows you can put 350+ hate on each mob in little over a second each. Taking the time to cast a crappy AE to get resisted when you could be chaining terrors is never a good idea. And I don't know what spell line ups you guys are running, but with Brazen Bull and Sublimate Soul being added to the roster with Ikisith, I don't have any room for unreliable spells. Assuming the average pull in an exp group is 3 or so mobs, if your group can't wait 3 seconds to start dps'ing then you need to find new people to play with.

Simply put, the only thing you need to AE aggro like a paladin is good clicking skills.

Dont forget good internet and hoping the zone isnt lagging for no known reason.

I have max ds on me.

I don't know why you mention this but ds generates ZERO aggro.

Also if you are actually going to talk about 30 frogloks being on you then you should probably acknowledge the reason you held aggro for so long is because of your breastplate proccing like a motherfucker. Ask me how many beyondlings I can tank without casting shit but aa terror.

I am pretty sad when I think about the best boosts to sk aggression for years have been my Thaz bp and whirlwind. I guess if you suck you can use the tmap bp too.


Shadowknight aggro sucks, Devs have been told it sucks, All high end shadowknights eventually realize it sucks. I hope you can get something changed.

 

[Glamrin]

the ds was more about the benefit of just a lil more dps on multiple targets. The bigger pbae dd wouldnt be much but every little bit counts and at full tomes its something. But yes the bp helps, still I did pretty much same thing before I had the bp too (although slightly less mobs cuz I couldnt heal for that then). Other than that I can just agree and Im hoping the sk situation might eventually become just a little bit better.

 

[nikosk]

"Shadowknight aggro sucks"

LOL @ that

and yea Xach, I rarely use the word nuke.. and when I do, it is usually just for initial aggro when charging a group of like 5 mobs so it doesn't run straight to a caster/healer. I hit assault of shadows right after the word lands, then chain cast terrors while switching targets (I always have 4 up so theres always a new terror to cast)

98% of the time I don't have the Word spell memmed.

 

[Otcho]

"Shadowknight aggro sucks"

LOL @ that

Ah yes, the great shadowknight snap aggro.

Pros:
Unresistable
Casts fast

Cons:
1)Requires you have little latency to actually have GOOD aggro, since you know your refresh time gets affected and blocks off your chance to use three terrors.
2)Many targets? Enjoy Dropping target/left click spam in hopes of getting the one you missed.
3)Chain casting even at 50 mana a pop ends up with you losing significant amounts of mana in many many fights meanwhile your paladin buddy does not encounter this issue.
4) There is no actual damage involved so when you cast 8 terrors on that golem and it immediately peals off to hit a wizard because their familiar casted a heal on someone/god knows what the fuck even though they are 60 feet behind you is enjoyable.
5)Gets reflected/counterspelled.
6) Your only means of real AOE aggro is on a 50 minute cooldown and you have to farm it in potorment. Meanwhile the experience game is all about pulling as much as possible. Numerous strats involve spawning of many adds. Fun times.
7 The main benefit of them being unresistable and preventing bad engages has been trumped by the existence of loot from a low end mob with a 10 minute cooldown meaning warriors/paladins will never get a resist/fail initial aggro.
8) Have you actually paid attention to how many buttons you have to push to be competent in the high end.
9) More than three targets, enjoy your inferior aggro and the fact that you are the worst tank out of the three.


Shadowknights have bad aggro generation, not only that but the way it happens is the stupidest shit currently in game.

 

[Miffy]

Any more types of SK AE agro would be trampling all over Paladins' role. If you think that your agro spells being unresistable is in any way a small pro, think again. As it is, with a little quick clicking and a whirlwind any tank can keep AE agro. SK's have tremendous single target agro and can tank many things paladins and warriors simply can't tank, if you want AE agro play a paladin. But let me tell you that there are plenty of mobs that, even at simply magic resistant, easily resist your AE spells and you are fumbling and clicking just like any SK or warrior to get those stray mobs.

Also, everything ^^^ is true about paladin agro except the parts about multiple targets so I don't know what all the QQ is about.

 

[Glamrin]

Any more types of SK AE agro would be trampling all over Paladins' role.

This is untrue. Bards get ae agro and monks get ae agro, yet neither of them trample all over the paladin's role, even though they can tank nameds in farhags. Paladin's get hot's yet they do not trample all over the clerics role. Bards, beasts, necro's and enchanters gets slow, yet they do not trample all over the shamans role. Hell even warriors get AE taunt and foelock, yet they do not trample all over the paladin's role.

The statement is simply not true, assuming paladins remain better at it. The sad problem atm is that pretty much every exp zone out there has a named or a mob, or a part, where ae agro is pretty much required. Aslong as SK's remain as limited as they are with more than 3 targets, This is a BIG problem.

Meanwhile the experience game is all about pulling as much as possible. Numerous strats involve spawning of many adds. Fun times.

9) More than three targets, enjoy your inferior aggro and the fact that you are the worst tank out of the three.

This is unfortunately very very true, and it is a BIG problem. The only reason that there isnt more people complaining over it constantly is that there simply aren't as many sk's around as there are paladins, guess why...

The issue really is that so many exp zones have one or two or more encounters where you need good ae agro or the mobs in the zone are easy enough that its a huge advantage exp wise to tank multiiple mobs at the same time. Now I would love to see all of these situations in zones like emberflow, citadel and bq changed in such a way that all encounters where tanking more mobs than 3 at the same time would be changed to do something else instead. Add to that adding mobs doing effects that would seriously hurt, if more than 3 are engaged at the same time. Some zones could also really use some mobs doing stuff that can't be handled if youre not playing a shadowknight or warrior, as a counterweight to the many ae situations. More mobs with effects like welcoming comittee in uc might be an interesting thought. One type doing stuff if you stun, another doing stuff if you blind. That might prevent wanting to pull them at the same time.

 

[Otcho]

Here is the big problem with shadowknights:

You are worse as a tank than the other two, you put out worse dps than a warrior , take way more damage, meanwhile your tanking stance is not always the best option (see: S 3 is better than it). Paladin self healing out does your mitigation stance (/s 6), not to mention the mana gain to healers.

You basically cannot contribute to your group/raid in any form other than vortex, and possibly succubus assuming you have the slots for it and you don't have a gtoo freaking the hell out over it.

Yes you can feign death, Monks do it in a soul crushingly better way in every single regard the moment they get a pet clicky, maybe one day there will be a badass level 53 mob i can mez to assist in a split with my sick sk mez.

So basically what are shadowknights, they are the mana battery in raids and captain namesnipe outside of them.

I feel warriors have aggro problems similar to shadowknights with multiple mobs but lets face it area taunt owns the shit out of shout of agony for most aggro situations simply because of the cooldown but all the while they do not have to engage in a button frenzy at shadowknight level.


So now the majority of the content is leading towards multi mob encounters and shadowknights are sitting in the dust because the devs are adamantly opposed to shadowknights having any form of aoe aggro. Yes I would love to see all content rebalanced to not favor ae tanking, I doubt that is going to happen.


So where exactly in the paladin role would your class ability be removed when shadowknights get a moderate cooldown aoe aggro spell to deal with this shit, you are still the king at it, it just enables us to have an easier job. 2-3 minute cooldown problem solved, 1000~ hate.

The most infuriating thing for me playing my shadowknight is the realization that I compliment another tank better in the 6 man game then I do by just going at it solo, I am worse off than the paladin and warrior in every regard, there is no situation where you go oh a shadowknight would be swell or by incorporating a shadowknight in the group you magically open up alternative options (see paladins+druids).

SK's have tremendous single target agro and can tank many things paladins and warriors simply can't tank, if you want AE agro play a paladin. But let me tell you that there are plenty of mobs that, even at simply magic resistant,

This is a fabrication, there is no situation where you need shadowknights monstrous single target aggro generation outside certain cheesing of certain fights with aoe taunt. There are no fights that are exclusively held down by shadowknights outside of glib, as I said feel free to name drop whatever ones you think are a case of this and I will tell you why you were wrong or why shadowknights cant tank the birds in ponightmare without being a big pariah douche. Your main form of aggro has the same resist adjust as my lifetap, your class has access to more charisma than shadowknights, I see a resist on a lifetap about 1/18 casts on a 10 MR mob.

I would sacrifice my amazing single target aggro any day of the week for any form of aoe aggro since in the end high hate numbers mean jack shit when nothing calls for it.


Also just to bring this up again the so called tremendous single target aggro is a notion which implies you aren't being raped by the spell gem cooldown which puts your ST aggro slightly above paladin levels, even worse in certain circumstances

 

[Otcho]

I will admit I forgot shadowknights are the spam king and enable you to cheat reflect/counterspell mobs but yeah woopee for that.

Let me know if you want my info miffane, you can run around on me for a day in any 6 man zone and realize the hell that I go through. I even have a whirlwind so its basically the same right?

 

[Glamrin]

bleak picture but im just going to have to agree with everything said in your post otcho

 

[Otcho]

The reason marlow is missing is because she doesn't want to play her class :monocle:

 

[fuwok]

do tomes have an effect upon SK terrors?

 

[Miffy]

FD is amazingly useful especially in groups, and even more so when you are not over geared or are unfamiliar with the area (buy a rez urn save a wipe). Just wanted to throw that out there with all the QQ paladins can heal bs.

On to agro, try tanking one of those big white golems in frost on a paladin, you can't, a certain named in BQ? sorry magic immune, try tanking any mob that is magic resistant, you will lose agro because of resists. I have had groups wipe in places like emberflow where mobs have decent resists and when three come and two resist your wave of light guess what paladins are just as screwed by spell gem refresh. Also, paladins simply can't spam to the same extent as SKs because they must wait for blind to wear off. Try some of the new ikisith zones, BQ, Citadel, mobs come in small groups (or you could split them on your SK) very easy to agro two at a time but they are also quite resistant to magic. This is your true agro power as a SK, Completely Reliable spell agro. I admit that before knight weapon nerfs it wasn't such a big deal especially in exp groups. Now with new magic resistant and easily splittable / 2 mob pulls and weaker melee agro for knights SK agro is pretty balanced. Lastly note that the two new ikisith paladin agro spells target only 2/3 targets and only have -50/0 resist mods, even wave of light which seems to be the omg king of aoe agro spell only has a -75 adjust. So, while paladins do have an easier time aoe agroing they can not do it reliably where mobs are magic resistant. And I would never run into deep BQ or Citadell and even try to agro 6 mobs. I think your problem is you guys are focused on the old world and aoe exping, there are already places in the game where you simply do not want to pull more than 1-3 mobs or you die, when mobs are WW / DB / Ramp / all that other crazy shit ikisith mobs do there is already a discouragement for pulling lots of mobs in most Ikisith dungeons.