THE GRUPO INCIDENT (legitimate discussion)

This is a thread for discussion about policy regarding malicious deletion of character's items (or anything else that could be maliciously destroyed/ruined/etc).

First, I will explain the situation a bit since I know a lot of people might not know what the deal is. Grupo is a paladin alt I made a long time ago. I had trouble exping the character since nobody I exp with wants to bring along a lower tier tank. A healer or dps can be far lower tier and still help significantly in an exp group, but as many of you know, the tank is the biggest determining factor in how much a group can handle, and thus how good their exp will be. So... I decided to let lower tier people use grupo. I figured that they would appreciate a decently geared tank (I know I would have loved to have access to such a character when I was lower tier), and in return they got grupo exp so that I didn't have to. A lot of people think/say bad things about grupo, but I met a lot of cool people through him that I would have never met otherwise, and I know a lot of people really appreciated having access to a character like him. About a week ago someone got Grupo jailed (I'm still not entirely sure how this happened, I was told it was because of a post someone made, but I didn't think one could get other peoples characters jailed with posts). Anyway, I changed the password because of the jailing and /ooc'd to find some new people that would appreciate having access to grupo. I gave his info to about 6 new people. Later that day someone deleted nearly all of his gear.

Grupo is an alt, and an annoyingly hard to progress one, so it wont be so terrible for me if he just becomes a SSS bot with a 200k charm. I will miss the connection he provided to lower tier players, and I'm sure a lot of people will miss being able to use him, but I doubt anyone will quit over Grupo. However, I think if this situation happened to anyone's main, and they could not get items back, most people would probably quit, and just seeing/knowing that this sort of this is possible makes me less inclined to play SoD.

People are going to share info, and they are going to not use guestlock. Maybe they make you safer, but they are inconvenient, they hurt the progression of your character, they hurt the progression of your guild and your friends characters. Since most/many people play this game for the friends they have and character progression, they will continue to share info and not use guestlock.

You can say that not reimbursing items prompts people to be more careful, but in a situation like Grupo's, it also gives a ton of power to anyone who might consider doing something like this. It wouldn't surprise me if seeing/hearing about this incident prompts certain people to mimic this situation when they are put into the wrong situation (eg: they are so mad/upset/etc they are quitting the game, so they dont care if they are banned and they want to ruin other people that they blame OR someone who just knows how to proxy their IP, and happens to have access to the character of someone they dislike).

In the end, I think this is a situation where you should support the victim, because the repercussions here are too big. It's almost like saying "you were dumb/careless, so you can't play our game anymore"

Guestlock was added by Wiz to prevent this exact issue, if you don't use it, then you risk having exactly this happening. Wiz even stated that once guestlock goes live we're not responsible for missing items that are deleted, we will still find and ban the person that did it, but that's it. We provide the tools for this to not be an issue, there shouldn't be a discussion it's been documented for a long time and everyone knows it.

I disagree with the policy but I also disagree with your manipulative stuff about spiritually connecting with the level 30s in your tome farming sweatshop and how guestlock is evil and hinders progression. In the future you might want to frame the situation more like:

"I freely admit what I did was stupid and in retrospect I understand there is no rationalization I can make which does not make me look like a rube. My attempts to have other people progress my character ended in disaster that was made possible by my own inaction, but despite this fact I believe that a policy of this nature is a poor one and does more to protect the staff than the players.

While it is true I disregarded the feature that was added to prevent this very thing that should not and does not negate the time and effort that I and 27 other people have put into the character over the course of numerous months. To handwave that away under the pretense of adhering to policy for the sake of policy is a very hollow act and outwardly looks much more like a staff intent on relishing the misfortune of a playerbase they have come to resent."

You give access, you take risks. I don't even get why the staff took the trouble to add guestlock.

We have not had a malicious total character wipe in a long, long time. The last time it happened a revert was offered so that items were retained but a week or two of work on the character was lost as a meeting at the middle.

This was 3-4 years ago and now we have guestlock. Guestlock was put in place to lower GM load and let people take their toon security into their own hands. Because of this it was stated that lost items from malicious deletion was going to be hands off from staff.

Now this case plays an interesting middle ground between the two common law cases of "Total Malicious Deletion where the character is crippled" and "Item is deleted". We have reimbursed total deletions before (years ago) partially to avoid the incentive for people to even do these sorts of shitty actions.

That is what we are currently deciding between. Is there a good balance we can strike mid way that keeps the onus of security on the player while still disincentivize "suicide by malicious item deletion". I have a feeling that grupo will not be completely shit out of luck but making big policy like this takes a few days - especially when the head GM is busy IRL.

That is where it currently stands. Thank you for making an actually coherent post outside of loose platinum. Most of the time - agree with us or not - there is actual thought going on behind the scenes about these sort of issues.

My take on this is that it happens so infrequently and is so bad that total reimbursement should be the policy for malicious deletion of items or character.

If Dalaya needs some help charge a monetary fee for this service.

I don't like the idea of "too bad, this was preventable, but we could also easily help you but we won't because this is your fault so deal"

There is recent precedent of a sort when someone logged on to someone else's acct and straight up deleted the character. This was reverted instantly with no questions asked MOSTLY because it was something not preventable by code. After investigation it looks like it COULD be prevented, maybe. I don't know. I think we would still revert even if I magically extended guestlock's power to stop deletion also. Anyway, there has been pages and pages of discussion over this not just the one specific incident of Grupo but also how we can have a consistent policy for this sort of thing in the future. GMS (and devs (and me)) have gotten into trouble by adopting a 'just this once' stance on many issues and we try to avoid that as much as possible. Sorry for the time it is taking!

It rewards the person deleting your stuff to not restore it. If I'm having a go out with a bang quit-forever party and I start deleting all the stuff on the accounts I have access to - I'll be banned. They'll just be out all their stuff because they don't use guestlock.

That sucks for them but I'm quitting anyway (in this hypothetical) so I am laughing all the way to DragonCon with my d20s in a Crown Royal bag and every issue of Dragon Magazine in a special tote with a really cool mind flayer drawn on it.

I posted this in the S&R forum in the item deletion thread there, so to add to the discussion I will re-post it here (apparently even though Grupo and the Happyland item deletion thread were mentioned in the OP, that thread is meant only for accidental deletion).

Emiljon said:

People should REALLY use guestlock, but I think it's pretty insensitive to say "no reimbursements EVER." Yes it is there for a reason, but when someone's gear gets maliciously deleted it is effectively removing not just the douchebag but also the player. If all my gear was deleted I would probably just quit tbh. There's so much time and effort put into a player's character that most people would feel extremely discouraged from starting over. You can say that's the incentive to use guestlock, but 'start over or quit' are both pretty harsh options.

To keep the incentive in line with using guestlock rather than relying on a GM/Admin to reimburse your stuff, make it a rollback service with a charge. This makes people still want to use guestlock, but in those rare circumstances where someone is negligent enough to not use it they aren't completely screwed. Make it a process where you submit your request for a character rollback and $50 dollars cash towards the server funds (similar to the character account moving service). With that charge, people will still really want to use guestlock to protect themselves, but those negligent players that really don't want to just start over or quit can have an option to get their stuff back.

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I would also like to add that if punishment is what is needed for people to "learn from their mistakes," denying reimbursement is not the right punishment. What will they learn if they just quit? Be sure to get full coverage car insurance IRL? I think if it were one of their main characters they most likely would quit (I would definitely not be starting over if my characters were stripped). I don't know about anyone else here, but if I logged in and I was stripped naked the shock alone would scare me into using guestlock, no additional punishment necessary. I'm sure just reading about the Grupo fiasco lately has spooked people into guestlocking their characters, and I don't think making reimbursement a costly last resort option would put people's minds enough at ease for them not to use it.

I think this is very similar to the condom discussion I saw in ooc. Guestlock is the condom, and having your items deleted is an STD. You can protect yourself from STD's by using a condom, but denying reimbursements is like the doctor refusing to treat the ones who are dumb enough not to use a condom. People don't go around not using condoms because they can just get treatment from the doctor if they pick up an STD.

I also completely agree with Fuwok. A ban doesn't mean anything to the deleter, because they wouldn't be going around maliciously griefing other players if they didn't intend to quit anyway. It just gives them additional satisfaction before they go that their griefing is going to be irreparable.

tl;dr USE GUESTLOCK, but no reimbursements EVER is cruel to the player and rewarding to the perpetrator.

Emiljon said:

What will they learn if they just quit?

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Is the staff really wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth at the thought of a player quitting the game because he acted irresponsibly with his log-in info and got hurt?

Draeos said:

Some how reimbursing people is supposed to encourage deletion / things being stolen, and not reimbursing them doesn't.

I mean i get it you don't want to reimburse people due to it might make a few more people lazy/bad and not guestlock witch would lead to some more work, but the truth of the matter is nobody is going to want there stuff stolen anyway regardless if the policy is to reimburse or not it takes time its a hassle on both ends and having the policy be well you didn't guestlock your SoL isn't going to in practice make more work.

No one is going to make the conscious decision, "Well the GMs will just reimburse me anyway so i'm just not going to guestlock" If you really think thats whats going to happen idk what to tell you but give people a bit more credit.

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I'm just gunna leave this here incase someone thought it was a troll cuz i posted it in LP

To the GMs: there are times when you have to exercise your best judgment in some cases, and to determine whether precedent should apply to the case in question. Like any judge presiding over a case, you try to follow the law but you also try to be fair. There are times when these won't always align.

However, if I was a GM looking at this case, I would not reimburse your items for this reason: while what happened to you may not be fair, it happened while you were attempting to do something incredibly scummy with your character, and I would feel little pity for you and your plight.

Yes, the game is designed in a way that allows other players to level up your toon without you doing any of the work, even players that you don't know and have never spoken to. Does that mean it's reasonable for you to advertise your account information in ooc to try and exploit this aspect to its maximum effect? Not in my judgment.

You did nothing illegal so you shouldn't be in trouble for your actions, but I wouldn't expect sympathy either. Maybe other people feel differently.

While I'm on the subject, I don't think characters under a guest lock should receive experience at all (except from adventure bands). Level up your own toons.

Zaela said:

Giving up extra vendor trash slots in return for having a more powerful tank than you would otherwise does not seem nearly as progression-destroying as you make it out to be.

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i was wondering how guestlock "hurt the progression of your character, they hurt the progression of your guild and your friends characters" and thats the only thing i could think of and thought i was missing something.

neonovas said:

i was wondering how guestlock "hurt the progression of your character, they hurt the progression of your guild and your friends characters" and thats the only thing i could think of and thought i was missing something.

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But guest lock makes it slightly more inconvenient for other people to level up my characters while I'm on vacation! QQQQQQQ...

ngl pretty arrogant to /ooc your alts info trying to get free exps, while thinking your better then guestlock.
then asking the server staff to fix ur deleted stuff? lol

maybe if u were still in Dalaya's Beginners but i mean come on, you've been on the server awhile.
Thats just pure Arrogance.

fuwok said:

It rewards the person deleting your stuff to not restore it. If I'm having a go out with a bang quit-forever party and I start deleting all the stuff on the accounts I have access to - I'll be banned. They'll just be out all their stuff because they don't use guestlock.

That sucks for them but I'm quitting anyway (in this hypothetical) so I am laughing all the way to DragonCon with my d20s in a Crown Royal bag and every issue of Dragon Magazine in a special tote with a really cool mind flayer drawn on it.

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This says it all.

Regardless if Solo is dumb for giving out his info to random noobs, he did however help a lot of people get xp and progress their toons. Grupo was always on, always in an xp group, always getting people xp, always helping the random noobs on this server. And like Fuwok says, you're letting the bad guy win by not restoring the character.

If someone blew up your car and the insurance company says "fuck you, you are out of luck", would you be happy about it too? Basically the same concept, the insurance company has the power to reimburse you for your vehicle because you paid insurance. Solo paid for his time on this server, keeping it going by helping noobs out. I always use to hear, "the server is down on donations this month, help donate to keep the server running, etc." Charge a fee for restoration...if it really mattered...

Stryda said:

If someone blew up your car and the insurance company says "fuck you, you are out of luck", would you be happy about it too?

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If your insurance company knew you made copies of your car key and handed it to total strangers, and that one of those strangers is responsible for blowing up your car, you can bet they'd fight your claim.

ETA: with that said, can we stick to the game instead of constantly framing this situation into hypothetical real life scenarios?

Enough analogies!

No one is served by telling stupid people "HA GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED" where the implicit assertion is that I, the smart person, will never ever do something stupid.

Grupo has been restored and boy let me tell you he better not do this again.

Slaariel said:

where the implicit assertion is that I, the smart person, will never ever do something stupid.

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Sorry, but that part is BS. I did something stupid on Live, and I lost all my stuff. I realized I did something stupid and I ate the loss. I know I can fail, and I know I own up to it when I do.