Revisiting downtime
- Thread starter Manguadi
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Manguadi
Dalayan Beginner
Also I can't stress enough how medding during death effects isn't going to shorten downtime on most wipes. Only on the wipes where you camp a cleric or FD someone out will you save some time, and you're only going to get back maybe a minute or two on those wipes.
The worst wipes, complete wipes will be just as long. It has got to include something that makes rezzing not drain your mana completely.
What if rezzes that cost mana also restore that % of your current mana? So a 50% rez gives you 50% of the mana you were rezzed with, 96% rez 96% of current mana, etc. And it excludes clicky rezzes so rezzers would have work a little bit harder than just using a rez clicky for greater benefit.
The worst wipes, complete wipes will be just as long. It has got to include something that makes rezzing not drain your mana completely.
What if rezzes that cost mana also restore that % of your current mana? So a 50% rez gives you 50% of the mana you were rezzed with, 96% rez 96% of current mana, etc. And it excludes clicky rezzes so rezzers would have work a little bit harder than just using a rez clicky for greater benefit.
Edited By Staff: Post Removed for Inappropriate Content
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Manguadi
Dalayan Beginner
What about extending the duration of cleric's target DA to 6 ticks? This would put it just on the edge of a full camp timer.
It's got a 90ish minute reuse. It requires players to do something other than beg for mercy on the forums. You can still get summoned while you're sitting and camping and DA'd so it's by no means foolproof. It's not really used for anything else besides a DA you can use while your spells are on refresh. It's a match made in heaven.
on a different topic: Please don't respond to this thread to get into an argument with budrick. Please.
It's got a 90ish minute reuse. It requires players to do something other than beg for mercy on the forums. You can still get summoned while you're sitting and camping and DA'd so it's by no means foolproof. It's not really used for anything else besides a DA you can use while your spells are on refresh. It's a match made in heaven.
on a different topic: Please don't respond to this thread to get into an argument with budrick. Please.
Morratizzle
Dalayan Beginner
While I agree downtime after whiping is a pain. It almost feels like a necessary evil. If downtime was significantly lowered I could see an instance of some guilds progressing faster while others progress SLOWER.
Now I know there are plenty of targets to snipe as is. But imagine guilds in similar tiers competing over targets. This biggest limitation to how much a guild can get done in one raid is TIME. By decreasing the amount of time it takes to down a certain target. You allow that raid to down more targets within an allotted time. The more targets 1 guild downs the less targets that are left for other guilds afterwards.
Just my 2cp. Flame on
Now I know there are plenty of targets to snipe as is. But imagine guilds in similar tiers competing over targets. This biggest limitation to how much a guild can get done in one raid is TIME. By decreasing the amount of time it takes to down a certain target. You allow that raid to down more targets within an allotted time. The more targets 1 guild downs the less targets that are left for other guilds afterwards.
Just my 2cp. Flame on
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
Im going to assume youre assumption is correct. Lets develop it somewhat. Guild A does an encounter. In beginning they will wipe some, making it take time.. but after killing that encounter 3 times, it goes faster, and they wipe less. After 10 times, they all know exactly what to do, they dont really wipe on this encounter anymore, They can kill it quickly and move on. Reseffects taking time will no longer slow them down.
Guild B is trying an encounter for the first time. They wipe a lot.. every wipe costs them 20 minutes. In the end they finally end up killing the boss, but there is no time for killing more stuff, raid is over and they leave more targets up for guild A.
As I see it, assuming your assumption is correct, decreasing the time it takes to get back in action after a wipe will help the up and coming guilds. Not the guilds farming a mob over and over and over. They wont be affected much.
"Guilds in similar tiers." Higher tier guilds will always have the advantage over lower tiered guilds. They have more experience organizing raids, they're more familiar with the encounters, and they have better gear. This entire thread is more focused on progression, not backfarming encounters you already know. His posts highlights guilds advancing through the same tier. Not that it matters a whole lot, but don't take posts out of context.
Your post basically implies that it would be beneficial to the game if guilds were allowed to progress faster. That's dumb, for obvious reasons. It also contradicts the opinions of several staff members, insofar as I remember.
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Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
There are still gear checks scattered throughout the tiers that are not really made easier by throwing yourself at them over and over again; you need to have X of Y resist on everyone in the raid, or a main tank with a certain level of hp/ac, or healers with mana pools of a certain size, etc.
Example: If a guild is trying to progress in Thaz, getting 10 attempts at the lower fire boss in a night compared to 5-6 won't make any difference at all until they have everyone with high enough fire resist.
And if you honestly think a full raid recovery takes 10 minutes or less, you've obviously been away from the raid scene too long.
Example: If a guild is trying to progress in Thaz, getting 10 attempts at the lower fire boss in a night compared to 5-6 won't make any difference at all until they have everyone with high enough fire resist.
And if you honestly think a full raid recovery takes 10 minutes or less, you've obviously been away from the raid scene too long.
The point of recovery is a time sink; it's a repercussion for failing. It doesn't matter why you fail, there's more pressure on you to succeed if a hefty penalty is applied to failing. If it wasn't obvious, high fire resist is part of the strategy for Lower Fire, and learning the strategy is part of progression. Decreasing wipe recovery time ultimately lends itself to faster progression. From a developer's position, faster progression is bad.
And I've spent many, many thankless hours wiping. My old guildmates can attest to how stubborn I was, even on encounters we weren't geared for. However, we did learn to recover from a wipe quickmode. It was somewhere in the realm of 10-12 minutes.
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Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
You didn't contradict or refute anything I said about fights that are gear checks, you just claimed it was part of the strat for the fight and that more attempts will somehow let guilds kill these targets.
syduck:10-12 minutes is an absolute ideal recovery time. Camping a cleric, having 0 AFKs, every single person meds as soon as they get back in and lose DF, no major buffs have to be refreshed, etc. You can't always camp a cleric or FD a monk/necro, and on those instances the recovery time is closer to 20 minutes (See all of Mang's data earlier in the thread).
Bringing the average recovery time down from ~18 minutes to ~12 minutes would be great. There are still plenty of fights that would block guilds from progressing solely as a result of getting more attempts in a raid, but this would also encourage doing other targets that are more strat based than gear based, which I generally consider to be more fun and a bigger accomplishment once you master them.
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
Because I'm bored at work...
So lets explore a bit more about what you posted so nicely in the first post, because I think were on to something there...
Travel Time + Rezzing + Death Fatigue + Med Time + Buff Time + Remed Time = Wipe Recovery Time
Rezzing itself is fairly constant, and cascading if you have some organization too it. With the proper clicky, it can be done during the Death Fatigue faze, assuming your travel time phase wasn't too long. Best possible time for a single cleric clicking is a bit over 2 minutes. That doesn't happen of course but a focused heal team can do it in 3 minutes on average.
Death Fatigue is our constant. 4 minutes. It is not changing. You are penalized 4 minutes for dying no matter what. Odds of this becoming < 4 minutes are pretty much 0.
Med Time is where it gets interesting, and why I dismiss what most people are complaining about. Med Time paradoxically gets worse the better your casters get, punishing moving up in the tiers. So while it varies, doing the right thing (getting better gear) makes you worse at it, unlike travel time or Rez Time. The group is more or less forced to wait until the person with the most mana is done.
Buff Time and Remed time are linked obviously, But should be fairly constant in relation to each other, and don't really add that much more time to the equation.
So of all those things, the only thing that can change is the Med Time, and really its not the biggest potential sink, just the only one that grows as you get better. Am I stating anything wrong thus far?
Now personally I don't believe any change to med time is going to change things by more than a couple minutes tops. Once again its the travel time that really affects a wipe most. And increased travel time in most cases in the game, are a consequence of wiping wrong (IE you made 2 mistakes wiping and wiping badly), and should be punished accordingly. But if you DO wipe properly and get your travel time to an effective 0, its certainly what stands out most, your melees waiting for buffs, but your casters having to gather mana after the DF fades so they can cast, so they can med again. And that variable being uneven and unfairly handled is the actual problem. You shouldn't be punished for being better.
So lets explore a bit more about what you posted so nicely in the first post, because I think were on to something there...
Travel Time + Rezzing + Death Fatigue + Med Time + Buff Time + Remed Time = Wipe Recovery Time
- Travel Time is not changing and varies GREATLY, depending on if you got a rezzer out in some manner
- Rezzing is fairly constant once the rezer is in place
- Death Fatigue is always 4 minutes
- Med time increases as mana pool increases
- Buff Time is fairly constant after a given tier
- Remed is constant in relation to Buff Time
Rezzing itself is fairly constant, and cascading if you have some organization too it. With the proper clicky, it can be done during the Death Fatigue faze, assuming your travel time phase wasn't too long. Best possible time for a single cleric clicking is a bit over 2 minutes. That doesn't happen of course but a focused heal team can do it in 3 minutes on average.
Death Fatigue is our constant. 4 minutes. It is not changing. You are penalized 4 minutes for dying no matter what. Odds of this becoming < 4 minutes are pretty much 0.
Med Time is where it gets interesting, and why I dismiss what most people are complaining about. Med Time paradoxically gets worse the better your casters get, punishing moving up in the tiers. So while it varies, doing the right thing (getting better gear) makes you worse at it, unlike travel time or Rez Time. The group is more or less forced to wait until the person with the most mana is done.
Buff Time and Remed time are linked obviously, But should be fairly constant in relation to each other, and don't really add that much more time to the equation.
So of all those things, the only thing that can change is the Med Time, and really its not the biggest potential sink, just the only one that grows as you get better. Am I stating anything wrong thus far?
Now personally I don't believe any change to med time is going to change things by more than a couple minutes tops. Once again its the travel time that really affects a wipe most. And increased travel time in most cases in the game, are a consequence of wiping wrong (IE you made 2 mistakes wiping and wiping badly), and should be punished accordingly. But if you DO wipe properly and get your travel time to an effective 0, its certainly what stands out most, your melees waiting for buffs, but your casters having to gather mana after the DF fades so they can cast, so they can med again. And that variable being uneven and unfairly handled is the actual problem. You shouldn't be punished for being better.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
He's not bullshitting on that estimate; we just didn't afk during wipes for the most part which made shit go super fast. As a former cleric I can attest to how much time is wasted by people afking far too long after a wipe; but that is niehter here nor there.
On the point about gear/resist checks - the concept with lower down time is that in the end you would be able to have the proper gear at that fight much quicker with decreased downtime.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Bosses still have a respawn time of ~5 days, that wouldn't be changing. Changing the wipe recovery time has no effect on bosses that are on farm status. Some additional, under-contested bosses would probably start to be killed more frequently, but getting an extra couple of bosses over the course of a week wouldn't greatly impact overall progression time.
Miffy
Dalayan Adventurer
I agree with cyzaine that the medding part of wiping is the only one that gets worse as you get better, and another thing about it is that it is completely innactive. At least when you are running back/rezzing/buffing you are playing the game and can play well or poorly, having to sit there and wait for the person with the most manas bar to fill is just that, waiting. Is there anyway that deathfatigue could give a big mana regen once it fades? Maybe have 2 death effects, one that prevents attack AND gives minus massive mana regen, and one that gives plus massive regen and lasts a five minutes after the first fades? Right now death fatigue is like a double wait time for casters compared to melee anyway.
Manguadi
Dalayan Beginner
I can't really concern myself with the specifics of what changes; I would like it if the 14 minute and 20+ minute downtimes both went down.
I just feel like if you walked up to somebody on the street and said: "I play a video game that makes me wait 20 minutes every time I fail," you would be pitied.
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
Ah the glory days of the 40 man raids of WoW. That was mostly due to stupidity and afks though.
In all seriousness I don't care about your perception. If you really couldn't stand it and it ALWAYS took 20 minutes, I'm sure you wouldn't play. I'm not at the burning edge content, but when I did raid with rev, when we wiped on encounters we didn't know in the mid+ end of the spectrum, 20+ minutes was the exception, not the rule.
I'm not saying there isn't some issue at hand, but I don't think any of your plans will make as large an impact on the raiding seen as you seem to think. And I think you know that too.
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I would tend to agree. However, as mana goes up that number increases, If you have to wait for stamina bars do to stancing, that number increases. Sure its not by a large number, but a couple minutes here, couple minutes there kind of deal and you get to your 14-20 min
Then you factor where zones are or how deep or can you clicky back/bind outside/have to wait for DF to fade then mana to port..., you add a couple minutes to the rez. Not this will change either, but yeah all this stuff adds up.