4.3 Loot balancing!

My takeaway from this thread is that an ideal set of buffs and nerfs would look something like this (this may not be 100% practical, but 'ideal' is my theme here):

-Nerf Dissonatus, buff or add a couple of other bard weapons to help their scaling out. Bards are not top tier melee dps and they shouldn't be, but their melee scaling overall is lackluster and ideally we shouldn't have a band-aid fix from this singular item. Maybe they should get some utility weapons, maybe some damage weapons, so they have choices as a highly flexible class.

- A Glowing Black Pearl, Deception's Laughter, Nightwhisper, Voidstep, Soul Shepard, Scales of the Fallen, are all decent items and have alternatives or drawbacks in decent places for this being a T12 6man versus their 18man counterparts in T12 and T13. They probably do not need any changes.

-Bane of the fallen god, should be perhaps split into two items, keep the 1hs version for rangers, wizards, and mages with little to no changes, and keep the two hander as a shd/pal weapon with some aoe power but probably a more viable 2hander option vaguely equivalent to the spires 2hander for shd's (https://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Yclistinite_Alloy_Dreadblade) for both classes, putting this weapon in league with other two hander options for knights within T11-T13, maybe give it some AC.

-Give enchanters their own 4.3 weapon, they are a tricky class and giving them a special weapon doesn't feel farfetched to me.

-Ysar, don't change this weapon until rogues land in a more final position with their other weapons and any class changes that may be in the pipeline. then change it as needed to fit that. Potentially remove warrior from it and put them on 2 hander bane of the fallen god and make bane a two hander tank sword.

-Xi Valla Kah, nerf this item to be like 20-50 AC better than the other 2-3 BPS available at tier, give it some mana or other casterish buff maybe, this will make it still a strong and neat item without totally dislodging it, but allow other bps to make headway against it. New T3-T14 BPs doesn't need to be strictly better than 4.3 robe, but T15 BP needs to be. Make it so that characters that are lucky and diligent on going after a 6man target can get a good item, but if they cant get a robe they can get a decent T13ish BP that is roughly on par but maybe not as good since 6man items tend to be a little bit ahead of their 18man counterparts typically. And at the same time nerf the hell out of frost BP, its far past time that this BP get put in its place. Any other problematic BPs with procs should also get nerfed. Procs should be a major component of bps and designed that way, so proc BPs should be lower on stats, with a trade-off for procs for damage, healing, and aggro respectively to their archetypes.

-Horok, After the beastlord changes and everything, this item may also need to be split, beastlords and monks have drifted apart a bit since this items conception. I wish i had a better straight forward suggestion for this item. maybe add +h2h mod or something, which is cool for monks but not really great for beastlords anymore or somesuch. I wish I had better solutions on this item, but it should be looked at by someone better than me at MNK/BST weapon itemization. Maybe a 6% magic focus? I dunno.

-Buff Jenrok stuff, I know it's not the point of this thread, but this will probably help with smoothing progression out overall. I won't say more on this and I think everyone should follow suit and leave Jenrok stuff for another thread for now. Perhaps make another thread opening the can of worms for Jenrok? Having a thread for nerfs and one for buffs might lessen the angst.

I appreciate that the staff was upfront about the incoming nerf. Please don't be discouraged by people threatening to quit over this change; they either never do it, quit and comeback, or actually quit and no one misses them, so anyone taking that train of thought may as well be ignored in my opinion. I have confidence that this change will be done well along with other incoming changes despite detractors (whom I'll agree have a historical point, but I suspect this will be different). Thanks for taking the time and effort that a thread like this takes. I look forward to all the cool new things on the horizon that we are making way for!
 
Xoranath said:
I think that Enc will still be great dps, just not as high as it is now. There have been parses that show a huge difference between Enc and Wiz dps. Enc can still be higher in raids, just not as high as it currently is. I have seen a couple of suggestions for an enc item.
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Where is enchanter dps supposed to be?

If this is the single parse that Nwaij provided from Kara Kadar, that's a completely unrealistic and bad example.
Blowing 2 sets of curses and him AoDing 3 wizards with vah backs on a fight that lasts only 2 minutes sure will show 3k dps on only THAT one fight, and not even on every KK fight. (For the record, the enchanter doing sb/boon was only 800 dps on that fight, the other ones were 2k dps for one enc, other classes following by 1800 dps.) And even then you need to have the 3 wizards in the first place. Maybe make curses not work on it if it's an issue, or rebalance the strategy.

Are enchanters good? Yes, they are fun to play and amazing with the right group of people. But I wouldn't say they are better than a good bard or wizard or ranger, even with their cool utility.
The problem of this game is class stacking, you always want 3 clerics, 3 wizards and 3 rangers, the rest are mostly interchangeable.
I hope this will eventually lead to revision of some other classes too!

On longer fights (like Taeshlin, 400+ seconds, usually involves some moving, but no mezzing) enchanters parse from 700-1300 dps, which I don't think is unreasonable. They are not the best dps nor the worst. If there are two in raid and one has casters over and the other melees, both enchanters never parse that high. The AoD is better dps than sb/boon,because it benefits from enchanter's modifiers from focus effects and tomes (not to mention cunning if you have it), but melee versions don't.
I don't see the problem in Bane being overpowered per se, but it being BiS and irreplaceable.
However AoD with damage increment 8 (or whatever tier dmg inc the other casters have at same tier), would probably be fine.

I agree with Tev the new Bane should have something to do with Giantkin tomes. I also think it's a disadvantage that it's made to fit six different classes.
Meleeing with 2h bane with boon+sb and all 4 ranks of the tome done is something in the rank of 300ish dps (I haven't parsed that in a long long time, but I believe best I ever did on Aishii was 350 dps, and then you need to cast the both buffs on self every 3 ticks, which is extremely annoying even with hotkeys).
My idea is to lose the Akhevan hubris focus and make Bane prolong the duration of SB and Boon buffs when cast on yourself and make it have control enhancement IV focus since there are only 2 items with it currently in game. Verdict would still be better melee dps for enchanter so this would not be a must-have, but would be a cool option for CE IV with added flavor.
To make it more desirable for knights, you could make a dps option of ammo proc with it, the opposite of Nightwisper, that would make rangers not use it, but knights might. I don't know what numbers enchanters with Verdict and this in ammo slot would produce, but since SB+Boon do cause downtime when meleeing as enchanter, and you can't keep it up on 3 other characters and still melee, it should be ok.
If you made it that it affected Boon/SB cast on others, it would just become a BiS item again, though I like the idea that melee damage would also somehow scale with enchanter's gear and tomes and not just the melee character you're casting them on.
 
AngryCow said:
And at the same time nerf the hell out of frost BP, its far past time that this BP get put in its place. Any other problematic BPs with procs should also get nerfed.
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TFW people don't realize that even if you turned Frost BP's spell reactive proc up to 100%, it wouldn't inflict any more damage than it currently does. There was an entire article I referenced earlier in this thread that you should read.

But for summary, this has been parsed by myself and others several times. Frost BP will not proc damage again until its current debuff wears off (every ~15 seconds), making its current base dps right around 40dps. This isn't anything to be concerned about compared to the rarity of the item.

Also I know you said let someone else discuss Horok but a H2H mod on a 1HB weapon. Cmon.

I also wanna clarify my original post comparing items in 4.3, that it was simply a defense on items that shouldn't be nerfed. I still do think that certain items in that fight do lack, but suggestions were made elsewhere later on that kinda bring light to it anyway.
 
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AngryCow said:
My takeaway from this thread is that an ideal set of buffs and nerfs would look something like this (this may not be 100% practical, but 'ideal' is my theme here):

-Nerf Dissonatus, buff or add a couple of other bard weapons to help their scaling out. Bards are not top tier melee dps and they shouldn't be, but their melee scaling overall is lackluster and ideally we shouldn't have a band-aid fix from this singular item. Maybe they should get some utility weapons, maybe some damage weapons, so they have choices as a highly flexible class.

-Bane of the fallen god, should be perhaps split into two items, keep the 1hs version for rangers, wizards, and mages with little to no changes, and keep the two hander as a shd/pal weapon with some aoe power but probably a more viable 2hander option vaguely equivalent to the spires 2hander for shd's (https://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Yclistinite_Alloy_Dreadblade) for both classes, putting this weapon in league with other two hander options for knights within T11-T13, maybe give it some AC.

-Xi Valla Kah, nerf this item to be like 20-50 AC better than the other 2-3 BPS available at tier, give it some mana or other casterish buff maybe, this will make it still a strong and neat item without totally dislodging it, but allow other bps to make headway against it. New T3-T14 BPs doesn't need to be strictly better than 4.3 robe, but T15 BP needs to be. Make it so that characters that are lucky and diligent on going after a 6man target can get a good item, but if they cant get a robe they can get a decent T13ish BP that is roughly on par but maybe not as good since 6man items tend to be a little bit ahead of their 18man counterparts typically. And at the same time nerf the hell out of frost BP, its far past time that this BP get put in its place. Any other problematic BPs with procs should also get nerfed. Procs should be a major component of bps and designed that way, so proc BPs should be lower on stats, with a trade-off for procs for damage, healing, and aggro respectively to their archetypes.

-Horok, After the beastlord changes and everything, this item may also need to be split, beastlords and monks have drifted apart a bit since this items conception. I wish i had a better straight forward suggestion for this item. maybe add +h2h mod or something, which is cool for monks but not really great for beastlords anymore or somesuch. I wish I had better solutions on this item, but it should be looked at by someone better than me at MNK/BST weapon itemization. Maybe a 6% magic focus? I dunno.
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I'm not quite sure if you understand how bard 4.3 weapon works, but it is the only reason why bards have melee damage scaling and don't just use proc sticks for weapons. Bard 4.3 weapon clicky gives bards guaranteed double attack for both weapons. Bard 4.3 weapon doesn't help bard melee scaling, it GIVES them melee scaling. You cannot nerf this effect without fundamentally changing lots of high tier bard itemization or the way the class is supposed to function. Bards should ideally do damage that is a slightly below beastlords, as they are both support type classes. Without the song from 4.3 sword, I think a bard struggles to outparse a beastlords pet. Even with 4.3 song, bard DPS is relatively weak when they cannot sing blademaster to support it. Here is a parse from custo comparing a bard with 4.3 + gloom sword, my rogue, and a beastlord pet, to give you a general idea of how strong bard DPS is when they can't sing blademaster and don't have a custo sword. /gu The Custodian in 303s, 3413k @11262dps --- Skerdachermp 123k @453dps --- Aaloo 116k @388dps --- Tevh 113k @389dps. I do agree that bard 4.3 sword is probably too much power from a single item, but I seriously don't see how bards in their current state could be relevant in challenging 6 man encounters or raid progression without being reduced to afk songbots.

The 4.3 sword was originally made with WIZ/MAG using the 2h version in mind, so removing them from it entirely seems foolish. The unique focus effect also seems to be a core design piece of the item and honestly I think removing it or ignoring it (like its current state) is just a lame thing to do.

If 4.3 robe goes from being about 450AC better to 50AC better the only classes it remains relevant for is tanks. You could give it 350 mana and I don't think it'd be worth using on Personally I think most BPs with noteworthy procs are problematic. You could remove every stat (except the proc) from Faeweave tunic or the Fae Robe and they would still be some of the best BPs in the game. Odessi's Shimmering Silk Kimono could have negative stats on it and I think it would be one of the best wizard items in the game (in a world w/ nerfed 4.3 robe). On a cleric in an exp group situation, I think the BP from experiment in spires is close in value to 4.3 robe in terms of survivability, if not better. For stats on most BPs to ever take priority I think you'd have to entirely gut most BP procs. Unless you want every BP proc to be .4% chance on hit and 2.6% chance to proc on spell, I don't think they will ever be balanced.

Hand 2 Hand mod on horok would be useless. The only way I see horok becoming relevant for monks is if it procs some kind of significant heal, lifetap, or AoE effect. Monk weapons will never be useful for single target DPS (and most of them aren't great for tanking either) in the current state of the game. I don't think it'd be worth changing unless you plan on changing most monk weapons to fit a similar pattern.
 
"To make it more desirable for knights, you could make a dps option of ammo proc with it, the opposite of Nightwisper, that would make rangers not use it, but knights might"

I would use something like this in ammo all day long. Seems easiest would just be a scaled banestorm?

Could be pboe for situational aggro, a rune, a short timed buff, a hate spell (or pbaoe hate spell).

As a knight, i agree with marthog that the 2 hander could be more impressive for knights.
 
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Actually, make the 2hs a shield instead. Give it AC comparable to appropriate tier for knights with the bash proc. Now they will wear it more, but pbaoe and 5% self nuke make it situational.

Now, when you nerf the hubris effect for enchanters, its not so bad as it only occupies one hand instead of two and they get some AC.

Not sure what rangers do with that. They equip it, get buff but lose dual wield defense bonus as trade off? Take rng off second form?

It would also add a good damage 9(?) Option at that tier with the trade off of a 5% self nuke.

Lastly, paladins can shift to healer mode on whim.
 
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should really nerf, or remove the loot that no one can even get anymore, since the only people to get the loot were the ones in the guild with the guy who made the fight in the first place.
 
Jmayzak said:
Edit:

In seriousness though, cant ask for people to keep thoughts concise and then bring up off topic points
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I didn't see your original post but there's literally 3 discussions going on about entire class DPS reworks and you decide to focus on this. I don't think it's too off-topic considering we're talking about T12 mobs that have alpha T13 loot that need to be toned down prior to new content if there's any hope for itemization. I'm not about to go make 18 different threads on all of this stuff just mentioning it also needs to be looked at.
 
Tevinter said:
The only way I see horok becoming relevant for monks is if it procs some kind of significant heal, lifetap, or AoE effect. Monk weapons will never be useful for single target DPS (and most of them aren't great for tanking either) in the current state of the game. I don't think it'd be worth changing unless you plan on changing most monk weapons to fit a similar pattern.
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As the current leading authority on poor decision making. While the current iteration of Horok was an improvement in DPS for BST, it was really unwarranted. The only thing that needed to happen was to increase the negative resist adjust on previous proc following the pet focus off switch that happens when BSTs go into Mimic Stance. For whatever reason, after the focus change, Beast Pets proc damage is wildly reduced from a spell's base unless it has a high resist adjust. In general anything lower than -100 results in this type of effect, and in my testing, was not affected by mob resists at all.

TL;DR - The proc change on Horok to Lure of Lightning benefited BSTs because of the high resist adjust and the proc actually doing more base damage, but made the weapon completely useless for monks by removing the autocasting heal utility. You can revert it back and change the resist adjust and it will serve the purpose it did before.
 
Here is my idea for a new 4.3 ENC weapon:
ENC4.3.PNG

It is somewaht modeled after Saithas NEC only scythe, adapted for enchanters.
Stats: as on the NEC scythe, adjusted for a bit higher tier.
Focus effect: Control Enhancement IV is a focus effect that exists on only 2 items in the entire game, and that noone but ENC really cares for (maybe SHM). For enchnaters, it is very important though.
Clicky: Enchanter MR debuff, with about the casttime the real spell has with CSI8. Ammo slot alows for the item to be useable for the clicky once it isn't used for the stats any more (as healer 4.3 weapon). The availability of this clicky might result in ENCs replacing their class bracer at some point in the future. Also frees up a spell gem, a thing ENCs are really hurting at.

(Name, model and elemental damage type are not set in stone...)

EDIT: This should also have a +5 conjuration skillmod.
 
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While there has been some sliding into different topics, I appreciate that most of you are really trying to have good, constructive discussions. So question here now, looking at most of these posts, if we slightly changed bard sword, adjust the robe's ac some, and took enc off of the other weapon giving them something new and maybe ever so slightly tweaking the sword to make it a little better optimized for other classes, we would be good? Is that the general consensus so far? Just asking......
 
I believe the bard sword is in a good spot, I am curious what kind of tweaking you would do to it? Is there any way I can be in the loop on that?
 
Xoranath said:
if we slightly changed bard sword, adjust the robe's ac some, and took enc off of the other weapon giving them something new
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Sounds like the goal achieved will be gimp bard dps, make warriors great again(and thoroughly piss off everyone that put the effort to get a robe), and obfuscate enchanter dps. I think you guys can easily build loot tables and encounters around these things without nerfing, and I'm not convinced at all you're making the right decision. No matter how many times you say that the gear is too good for the tier all I hear is that the new endgame will be the same as the old endgame and its just a reason to grind.
 
Xoranath said:
While there has been some sliding into different topics, I appreciate that most of you are really trying to have good, constructive discussions. So question here now, looking at most of these posts, if we slightly changed bard sword, adjust the robe's ac some, and took enc off of the other weapon giving them something new and maybe ever so slightly tweaking the sword to make it a little better optimized for other classes, we would be good? Is that the general consensus so far? Just asking......
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I can only speak from a monk perspective, maybe barely a wiz, but I already only use nightwhisper outside of the robe (there's probably a solid case that I should tank with horok, but tbh I don't even take it out of the bank in current form) on my monk, and haven't really jumped at chances to get my wiz in for the weapon (would love an ear, but we never see them drop, so the line is discouragingly long). If the only change to the robe would be a nerf to the ac, it's kinda difficult to say general consensus agrees without more of an idea of how much "some" is. If it gets knocked down to a level it probably should have been at in the first place, then it could probably use a tweak or two in other places the way folks have mentioned, at least to be viable for some classes. Also as mentioned, things like horok (and curator hat) didn't seem to get looked at after monk changes.

In some respect, it's difficult to get behind some of these potential negative changes, when there are still things in the back of our minds that could use help. There have definitely been very recent examples of aid to items in cases like this, but the blow of a nerf like this whole 4.3 thing might be softened if it was accompanied by at least a few positive tweaks, because the prospect of new content just isn't enough for a lot of the current playerbase right now. That's more of a stand-alone cool possibility since the timeframes don't (can't?) line up. Also, as Blink just mentioned, it's difficult to see this kinda of news and not think that the new content will just be a fight to get back to where we currently (now temporarily) are.

Basically, tldr, somehow this needs to not just be a nerf, even if only under an illusion of tossing it in in the same bag with other fixes, and it needs to not take away from the idea of new content imo.
 
Blink I find it hard to believe you are unable to see how absurdly powerful robe is for balancing encounters. Can you list any comparable tank BP and go do Jenrok with it?
 
Xoranath said:
While there has been some sliding into different topics, I appreciate that most of you are really trying to have good, constructive discussions. So question here now, looking at most of these posts, if we slightly changed bard sword, adjust the robe's ac some, and took enc off of the other weapon giving them something new and maybe ever so slightly tweaking the sword to make it a little better optimized for other classes, we would be good? Is that the general consensus so far? Just asking......
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Tweaking the bard sword sadly doesn't really fix the problem. Bards have systemic problems stemming from them being overpowered before Ikisith. But come Ikisith everyone got tomes, spell damage on gear, and insane weapons. Bards scale worse than casters with spell damage on gear (songs only make up 60% of bard damage pre-blade master tomes and like 35% after) and worse with weapons than melee (lack of true double/triple attacks, low weapon skills). The sword is one of the two band-aids propping them up, the other being blademaster tomes. Tweaking the sword without fixing the baseline problem doesn't really help.
 
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