Any word yet on necro replacement AA?

Yeah, archaics shouldn't be class defining spells, its not as if they are for any other class.
 
Since I would like to see a fix for the "to be replaced" hotkey and you're never going to get a general consensus, is it possible that the devs could make some sort of poll on feasible changes?
I see a few ideas that I like, the burst lich, pet(s), runic pbaoe (even though I don't have my runics). I just don't see the point in asking us what we want when I personally don't know what you can change. And to be quite honest, I never thought of FC as being some ridiculously OP AA. So much so, that it had to be removed.
 
is it possible that the devs could make some sort of poll on feasible changes?

The only real limitation on feasibility is that it has to be an effect in the game that would benefit gameplay in some way. And it can't involve spawning 20 NPCs all within a second of each other because that would be really laggy. And it would obviously have to be reasonable, no "deathtouch everything in the zone" button. But other than that, pretty much anything would be feasible to code. Which makes it pretty hard to narrow the ideas down... The fact that FC was useful in combat makes me reluctant to just turn it into a simple space-saving utility thing like FD button, and no one wants another useless active AA like Recession or Manaburn or Crown of Storms. There's no really obvious gap that an AA button could fill for Necros anyway. Some people have suggested just giving it some passive effect, but it seems like such a waste having the button go unused. With all that in mind, ideas have been kind of all over the place. The person spouting a dozen half-baked ideas off the top of their head earlier in the thread is pretty much how the whole previous thread about it went. I think I spouted eight or nine different ideas myself. It's hard to even put limits on the types of ideas to consider since it's not clear if there's any particular direction we'd want Necros to grow in.

Sooooo... maybe a poll would be worth doing, but I don't even know what to put on it at this point (other than the surviving burst lich thing I guess). All the same problems with selection would apply.

(Just want to say that mentioning the FD button made me think of making FC a once-per-hour FD-other button, like the Endowed Death spell. Simple, useful, doesn't require intensive coding or balancing or inventing new mechanics, nor a gigantic description to explain how it works as most of my pointlessly-complicated ideas would. But it might be the kind of thing Woldaff would poo-poo since Necros already have a lot of recovery goodness.)

And to be quite honest, I never thought of FC as being some ridiculously OP AA. So much so, that it had to be removed.

Quoting my previous summary here:
The issue as far as I recall was that Necro DPS was excessively dependent on FC to keep up to par in raid situations, and it was skewing their balance. Several raid-level DoT spells were buffed (archaic pretty significantly iirc) when FC went out to redress the balance somewhat and improve performance in general.

I think I've already gone into it earlier in this thread but no other class is dependent on an active AA for their DPS the way Necros were. Even ignoring the overly long reuse time, FC was dependent on a very specific sort of situation to be effective (long fights against a target that is attackable from the start and doesn't depop at any point) and in that situation it was a little too effective and was probably standing in the way of Necro DPS being better in general (crazy high parses are ones that get spread around and remembered, not the average, more representative ones).

It's not that it was ridiculously OP per se, but that Necros were getting balanced around the minority of situations where it was particularly effective, which left them sub-par in all the situations where it's not feasible to use (after a wipe, on any kind of trash, exp mobs, some high-end huge-hp zone-ending bosses that dispel it at certain points mostly just because the precedent to do so existed). So, not axed because it was breaking the game, but sacrificed in hopes of making Necros more potent in general without crazy numbers on a few particularly long fights getting in the way.
 
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General necro community agrees : we need some sort of boost to be competitive (a simple, boring, across the board slight bump to dot dmg just doesn't cut it)

Ideas:

Make cryotoxin worth using. Currently its terrible

Do something fancy with our disease line of spells:

Malady's Recourse : Upon succesfully landing a disease dot, the necromancer has a chance to receive this buff which gives an innate spell proc, dealing a nominal DD or additional dot to the mob.

Turn Festering curse into an AA - Vile Pathosis: allows the necromancer to transform his dots into entirely DD based spells for a limited time. Useful for short term bursts (something necro's are currently horrible at) give it a lengthy CD so its only for certain instances. Could also bump mana costs by a percentage as a drawback to the effect.

---------------------------

Just throwing out ideas, reading the thread thusfar, I would like to say that staff asking for a consensus among the necro community is ridiculous. We are not going to all agree on one broad fixing change that should be made.

There is consensus on the fact that SOMETHING needs to be changed. Hearing that should be enough to instigate the thought " hey maybe something is unbalanced "

-Pazms
 
That is probably the best synopsis of the issues I've seen Zaela.

If you were doing a poll, the ones that remotely interest me would be;

1. Spell pet with the active AA becoming a small but useful item;
a. Targetable fd
b. Forward only shadow step or the like

2. Burst Lich - Ideally scaling to users health, occuring over time like say 30 seconds, and probably requiring healing or at least care on use.

3. Spell haste of short cool down. Long enough to compensate for brick wall dot wear offs.
This isn't live where most of the spells are close in duration. The durations are all over the place and even refreshing early, you are going to have points where 3 spells wear off at the same time.

The first two would help with both dps and duration dps. The last with a technical issue that is more an occasional annoyance rather then a real problem.
Had another but forgot it.
 
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Getting rid of Festering Curse is a very good idea imo.

As for what to replace it with, personally I don't think it needs to be something that increases their DPS or something to make them more powerful, in raid type situations at least. If you can remember my previous posts, I am not a fan of the raid thing anyway... but still. Necro's are still an 'ok' class even without the curse. They might not be the highest dps, but whatever. My point is that unless the other classes have all crept far ahead (I am out of touch with the game now), I personally think it should just be something designed with more focus on it being fun, rather than it being powerful. In other words, I don't think they really NEED anything, when it comes to raiding at least, and to some extent, grouping.

That leaves two more ways to focus your ideas. One is that you could think up some weird and wonderful ideas for what you could replace it with, and that would be fun. But calling peoples ideas half baked isn't going to do you any favors btw, you would need to have a big brainstorm and everyone would need to sit in a circle and hold hands. But thinking up ideas could be fun. I might put a few at the end of this pondering post if I'm still awake.

The second area you could focus your ideas on, is to address some of the class weaknesses which I think the class has has always suffered with - compared to others. I haven't played for a loooong time now, so not sure if the crappy situation with summoning mobs was fixed yet? If that was fixed then maybe I would see things differently. If it wasn't fixed, and is not likely to be fixed any time soon, then I would suggest an ability to help necros in those situations. In other words, to let them be able to fight summoning mobs like other classes can, without constantly being summoned and killed.

The biggest glaring weaknesses I can see to necros though, is their lack of AE potential, and the weakness of their pet. I am assuming that compared to the other casters, when soloing, they seem ok. In other words, druids and wizzys can maybe quad kite but necros can kill single mobs more steadily and with better mana regen so it kind of evens out. Rogues kick ass but have to sit and boringly recover health after a while. Etc.. And Necros also get some cool tricks like FD which some classes dream of. In other words, when soloing, I am assuming it's all kinda sorta fair, ish.

But when you compare classes in duos, I think things all go horribly wrong, and on a server like this, that is a big issue imo. I would even wonder if Necros are maybe one of the least favoured duo partners? Obviously other classes are weak in the WRONG duo, but at least they have the potential to be really outstanding in the right duo, but with Necs I'm not sure there is really anything you could pair them with, to make the pair extraordinary. Take a Rogue for example, not only is their DPS great, but when well geared they can also tank several none raid mobs at once. I've seen them running around in Seb, pulling entire rooms at once. So match up a Rogue with a healer and you have a leet combo that can do some crazy shit. Then take Druids, they can heal and they have good AE spells. So match up a Druid with something like a Pally and the other guy can round up mobs in big groups and then the pair can smack them all down in big groups. Wizzys likewise. Monk, well similar deal to the Rogue if not even more overpowered thanks to their FD etc. Chanters, hmm, I'm not even sure if they are ever part of 'crazy shit' duo's? But if not, maybe they need to be looked at too.

Anyway, that's my theory. Everyone is doing crazy shit in duo's except Necros, that's how it sometimes felt to me at least. Again, when playing 'normally' (soloing or grouped or in raids) I would pick my necro over anything. But when doing crazy shit with a duo, there are some great duos that work really well, and as far as I know at least, Necro is never a part of that. And it never changes with your tiers either... Unlike say monks or whatever, you get well tiered monk and shammy and you can start working your way through low tier raid content quite comfortably. Even with high tier gear, the Necro doesn't really get anything out of it. All that really happens is that their mana pool and survivability increases which is pretty much useless outside of raids.

What makes them weak in these situations? Imo it's the pet and lack of AE. First off, the pet. The Necro cannot AE snare unlike the Dru/Wiz, so they can't kite (except singles which is a waste of time). So they NEED the pet to do anything. They can root/rot single mobs of course, but again, singles is a waste of time, and if the mob can summon, fugedaboudit. So they need the pet, but there is hardly any difference between a fresh level 65 and a tier 99 uber. The pet is still a one mob guy. You can pair the Nec with a wizzy or Druid but unlike any of the melee classes, the pet is never going to be able to round up groups of mobs and tank them while the other person AE nukes them all down. It's just too weak and not a good enough tank. And in fact, it's not even good enough to be a viable tank against one mob in most 'crazy' type situations. It might be ok against standard mobs in seb or something, if you are paired with a healer to keep it up, but put it up against any tough named and it just gets eaten, even if it has raego. A good healer can 'sometimes' keep it alive, but only by blowing their mana faster than they have ever before, and if the mob can flurry or something like that, then the pet is screwed. So basically, the pets suck at being anything other than a useful aid when soloing and a kind of walking dot in groups etc. So you could maybe consider 'fixing' the pet to make it able to AE aggro and tank a bit better. Necros have always been crying out for multiple pets anyway... The mage gets a few to choose from with cool tactical effects, and the necro gets 1! I remember when they came up with the monk and rogue pets and I thought they were finally going to give Necros what they always needed, but those became useless once you outleveled them. So that is something that has been a long time coming. Keep the skelly as the dps pet, maybe even lower their hp a little bit or something. Then have a armored zombie which is their tank pet. It's dps is hopeless but it can AE taunt really well and safely aggro against up to say... 4 mobs. It's still no Pally box but then the necro still has all their spells too.. Then maybe have a third pet just for fun and to round things off, which is a caster and works like Zaela described. Maybe it lifetaps not only to keep itself alive but it also transfers health to the group too, and maybe it regularly nukes (or AE nukes) to make up for Necros long standing lack of satisfying nukage. Anyway, that's the pet.

The other one was the lack of AE. Again in duos, the necro still can't really do anything better than when they are solo. For example a pally could round up 25 mobs, and the necro is still forced to handle it by sending their pet against just one mob and starting their slow ass dot rotation, on just one mob... Or blow all their mana spamming their one nuke, against just one mob.. I'm sure there are some situations where a necro could be good as a duo, but for now I can't think of anything so I'm going with this. They are supposed to be a DPS and all the other dps's can either AE or tank. So to rectify this, perhaps give the Necros a leet AE as their AA. Perhaps a good dot similar to their others, but it works on any number of mobs in the area. That's pretty much the end of this suggestion, but you could elaborate and maybe make it more interesting. Like maybe the dot is actually an improved version of Splurt so starts off doing very little, but if you are patient enough it ends up spamming huge damage for several seconds. Or maybe it's quite a weak dot but it stacks with itself. So you have to use the ability and then wait 15 seconds and then use it again to stack the dot a second time, then use it again to stack it a third time, and 4th, and 5th etc.. So it's effort intensive, and takes a lot of time and focus to pay off, but eventually it's doing huge damage. Or maybe make it even more interesting, each click stacks the dot but also subjects the necro to a shadowstep too. So be greedy and stack it one too many times and you shadowstep off a cliff, or in to a group of mobs or something. Or seeing as even that could be controlled by having your partner always pull to a small room safe room, perhaps have it so that each time you stack the dot, you get a random negative effect on yourself too, taken from a pool of several possibilities. So the first time you stack your big ae dot, you also get rooted. On the second stack you also get hit with Scourge, so you quickly need to sit and mem cure disease to save yourself. When you stack the dot the third time you are hit with an ice comet and you quickly need to lifetap your health back before you bring mad aggro to yourself. And the fourth time... you get blasted in a random direction, luckily you hit a wall which saved you. Will you go for a fifth time? You want that huge AE dps but zomg what could happen?!! You do it and you get me charmed and start casting stuff on your buddy or on yourself. Doh. But it was just as likely to hit you with a dispell which would have been ok. Maybe even throw in a few beneficial effects too, a little heal, a buff, etc, so doing the huge AE dot thing is great for XP but it's also a verging a bit in to russian roulette ville.

Anyway I think I've said enough for now.
 
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Targetable FD? No, we have that as a spell. Don't recall a time I've even considered using the spell. But why anyway? To FD a cleric on a wipe situation just to save a ruby or a bit of a run back to zone to recover? Doesn't appeal to me to have that as an AA.

I've thought on this a bit. Most of my ideas, or the ones that I've liked were all passive. So I tried to think of something that was activatable and beneficial at the same time.

Name: "Filter Soul" (or something snazzy relating to a necromancer)
Effect: Group/Raid life tap dot
Base dmg/heal: 750ish + crit dmg/heal chance(it'd have to be significant enough to be worth 9 aa's and worth the use in a raid situation)
Duration: 8 ticks
Stackable: stacks with HoT's
Buff slot: Recourse in song's buff slots so doesn't take up valuable regular buff slots
Resist check: unresistable (again, needs to be worth 9 aa's. worthless to have something that gets resisted alot)
Cooldown: 10 minutes
Emote: Cast on: Soandso feels their/his/her/it's soul being ripped from their/his/her/it's body ... Casting: Soandso manefests a ghostly hand to rip the soul from %T
Other info: Does affect pets
 
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About my above AA suggestion....

I don't expect all the info about the aa to remain as it's written. Definitely subject to tweaking. It's simply an idea.
 
I don't know why I'm posting this, but if we're still taking suggestions on FC replacements I wanna toss this one into the ring:

Every DoT that lands on the mob re-applies itself automatically when the DoT ends (even DoTs from non-necros, procs, etc) until the mob dies.


could offer necromancers Quick cast? Most dots have average cast of 5seconds or more.
 
could offer necromancers Quick cast? Most dots have average cast of 5seconds or more.

Yeah that always made me wonder, why the necro quick cast AA is for beneficial spells, its not like they dont need faster casting on their dots, cause as ynnear points out, all the dots has terrible long cast times...

But dont forget that the necro also brings alot of support, they are not just about dps.
Tomes that gives the group insane mana, can FD and ress (nice combo) and they do have targetable FD (not to mention insane mana regen).

So im not sure Necro's really should be able to out dps a wizard, ranger or a rogue (or even a monk), shrug. But they should be able to out dps a Beastlord, but then, they probably will come close to the wizard and rogue anyway hah. This game is so unbalanced atm heh.
 
But dont forget that the necro also brings alot of support, they are not just about dps.
So im not sure Necro's really should be able to out dps a wizard, ranger or a rogue (or even a monk),

Exactly. But the majority of necros don't play their class to the full. It attracts people who choose it only because it seems uber badass and then all they do is fear kite, dot, and lifetap, and then feel underwhelmed.
 
Anyway, i think i went off topic....

Idea for replacements:
Gradalsh's Decaying Curse:
Cast time 2.5 second, reuse 6 seconds.
Duration: last untill cast on new target (or target is dead, aka can only be on one target at the time).
Neg 100 disease.
Lower all resists by 15.
Does 100 damage a tick.
Increase dot damage to target by 5%.

I dont know if it would be to OP if it is stackable (max from 3 necro's, +15% dot damage, neg 45 all resists, thats for sure powerful...)

Downside of this spell pretty much only is if the target is disease resistant or if the necro cast it on a target that is not suppose to take any damage, and there are no other targets around, then he will have to cast it on him self (Gradalsh really likes to toy with the mortals, find new ways to plague them).
 
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It won't stack. It will also crap up better debuffs, so necs will never be allowed to use it.
 
I do not play a necro, but I have a few thoughts on thier issues:
1) No burst dps: so changing dots to nukes for short perios would be cool
2) Mana Issues: Make it a burst lich liek velleity said
On same note, make it when thier dots crit the necro recieves mana back
3) Lack of dps: Make it so all dots on mob crit for a certain period of time, like 1 min or 90s with a smallish recast like 10 mins.
 
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