God help us, its a BST thread

I am literally working on it as we speak. :) It's really hard, let me tell you! A lot of varying opinions.

One thing I did just do is put in the spell to replace plague. Will be testing that over the next couple of days. Waiting on approval for a bump to Venom of the Wild. Have 2 stances I am seriously considering, possibly looking at a proc or something as well. Finally, new unique spell for BLs with a definite pet connection. If I can get some approvals done here, going to be having folks try these out via clickies and such to see how it goes.
 
Taryth said:
I am literally working on it as we speak. :) It's really hard, let me tell you! A lot of varying opinions.

One thing I did just do is put in the spell to replace plague. Will be testing that over the next couple of days. Waiting on approval for a bump to Venom of the Wild. Have 2 stances I am seriously considering, possibly looking at a proc or something as well. Finally, new unique spell for BLs with a definite pet connection. If I can get some approvals done here, going to be having folks try these out via clickies and such to see how it goes.
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Is there anything going to be done to flesh out the BST dot lines at lower levels (even if it has to come after the fact) it'd be nice if the bst dot lines didnt all just randomly start at 65 other than the poison line.
 
I want to focus on cold DOTs if all goes well, so yeah it probably makes sense to give some earlier maybe. The model I'm using is basically the necro ignite blood line, so we at least have some data points to work with.

Oh I'd like to also scale up pet atk with the BL's attack, but that's gonna be a bit I think, because other pets and stuff.
 
Thade said:
Is there anything going to be done to flesh out the BST dot lines at lower levels (even if it has to come after the fact) it'd be nice if the bst dot lines didnt all just randomly start at 65 other than the poison line.
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While I agree it doesn't totally make sense, BST are a pretty solid class up until the 65/raid game.
 
Silosobi said:
While I agree it doesn't totally make sense, BST are a pretty solid class up until the 65/raid game.
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Yeah they aren't weak, you just don't have anything to do. You're just strong because low level pets are strong. You cast one poison dot then afk/auto attack and maybe slow something now and again.
 
(I realize this must have been stated)Has anybody said that beasts should get an intermediate pet between 63 and the runic. I realize this game is top heavy and nobody probably cares anymore but that was always the worst part of playing a beastlord while every other class got a cool new pet you were stuck with the old dumpster. While that doesn't do shit for them as an endgame class it was always a nice idea. Honestly the class should just get relic spells to differentiate them from the live version of being a shitty monk and a shitty shaman and fill out a niche or something. Give them a sick nasty dot that procs vex on the mob every other tick or some shit. In fact just give beastlords the best debuffs in game because why not(Druid archaic is a dumb spell).
 
I have to say that I am incredibly underwhelmed with the ever so slight bump to venom of the wild. with cunning, bitter cold recourse, affliction 7 and opus infection 1 its now ticking for 599 compared to 491 on mob with 1 PR and still only for 4 ticks , thats my bigger issue. This spell costs 475 mana and 1.5 seconds of not hitting a mob (6 seconds when you take into account Bitter cold needs to be cast to make it useful). I have yet to find the other 2 new spells mentioned in the patch notes in game and I don't see them in the spell parser either. Is the vagueness really necesary? Can't you just tell us whats been added? I will pursue these and update.

Math: (108 x 4)/24 = 18dps assuming all mobs have no PR. still better off spamming nukes /sniffle
 
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One of the new spells is a cold dot. I dug it out of spells_us and parsed it on the wiki
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/User:Juff/Spell_Parser

The other seems to be some sort of pet curse but the wiki parser cant make heads or tails of it.

Also you don't calculate the value of a DOT based on dps, or else they always come out looking like shit. You calculate them based on Damage per cast time.

599 * 4 + (whatever your initial dd is, like 350) 2746 damage for 1.5 seconds of casting, not including crits.

Bitter cold im assuming is like 1100 or 1200 damage for the same cast time, so no you aren't better "just spamming nukes". And while I agree the spell needs to be faster casting and maybe a little cheaper, being hyperbolic does not help.
 
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3.5 seconds. shoot me now x.x tho i suppose with innate csi its like 1.7. why not just make it 1.0 anyway lol
 
Thade said:
Bitter cold im assuming is like 1100 or 1200 damage for the same cast time, so no you aren't better "just spamming nukes". And while I agree the spell needs to be faster casting and maybe a little cheaper, being hyperbolic does not help.
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Depending on the mob resist i do from 1300-1500 dmg w/ it. From a mana/dmg efficiency point of view i am absolutely better off just using nukes because I'd have to use bitter cold to get that damage... otherwise its like 360/tick... So i can cast bitter cold over and over and spend less mana and do more damage, not even taking crits into consideration.
 
Swiftur said:
Depending on the mob resist i do from 1300-1500 dmg w/ it. From a mana/dmg efficiency point of view i am absolutely better off just using nukes because I'd have to use bitter cold to get that damage... otherwise its like 360/tick... So i can cast bitter cold over and over and spend less mana and do more damage, not even taking crits into consideration.
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from a dmg per mana effeciency wizards would only ever use frost howl so im not quite sure what you're getting at. at VotW new base of 202 initial and 262 per tic, its 2.63 damage per mana baseline, bitter cold comes in at 1.912 dmg per mana so im not even sure how you arrived at that conclusion. new VotW is also way higher damage per cast time, at 1250 dmg and 1.5sec cast, w/ bitter cold only being at 650 for 1.5 sec cast. Doing bitter cold and then votw is 2403 dmg for 3 seconds spend casting, and 815 mana. So doing bitter cold ->votw is 2.95 damage per mana and 1201~ dmg spent for 1.5 sec casting.

swiftur sucks at math, maybe bst were fine this whole time but nobody could play them???
 
Tevinter said:
Doing bitter cold and then votw is 2403 dmg for 3 seconds spend casting, and 815 mana. So doing bitter cold ->votw is 2.95 damage per mana and 1201~ dmg spent for 1.5 sec casting
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No, it's not because it's not one vs. the other. Its one and the other vs. one spell. Factoring in cool down on venom 2 which is nearly 3 seconds. so its 1.5 + 1.5 + 3.0 = 6.0 seconds. You can't just apply caster only math to this situation, that was my point. Also, we aren't rangers. We can't bow in between our casts. Not to mention with the exception of exposure the ranger nukes are 0.5. They don't lose anything, why should we? We interrupt our melee output to cast these spells, with raid haste, that's nearly 15 (potential)hits, not to mention procs that we are sacrificing to cast these spells, making them not worth it and a wash. That's literally the reason I can do as much DPS when using shadow shurikens vs. horok and rod of pox/spear. Because these spells can be done in between throws.
 
Swiftur said:
No, it's not because it's not one vs. the other. Its one and the other vs. one spell. Factoring in cool down on venom 2 which is nearly 3 seconds. so its 1.5 + 1.5 + 3.0 = 6.0 seconds. You can't just apply caster only math to this situation, that was my point. Also, we aren't rangers. We can't bow in between our casts. Not to mention with the exception of exposure the ranger nukes are 0.5. They don't lose anything, why should we? We interrupt our melee output to cast these spells, with raid haste, that's nearly 15 (potential)hits, not to mention procs that we are sacrificing to cast these spells, making them not worth it and a wash. That's literally the reason I can do as much DPS when using shadow shurikens vs. horok and rod of pox/spear. Because these spells can be done in between throws.
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You're still meleeing when you are greyed out waiting for the gem to refresh. You lose the 1.5 second from casting bitter cold and the 1.5 seconds from casting venom of the wild, that's it.

Edit: I logged onto kjiel to do some testing. This is with cunning and a shitty haste as his only buffs.


Venom of the wild (no bitter cold debuff) 463 + 566*4 = 2727/475 = 5.74 dpm. 1818 Damage per Cast Time


venom of the wild with bitter cold debuff (463 + (675 *4)) = 3163/475 = 6.65 DPM.


bitter cold = 1465/340 = 4.30 dpm= 976 Damage per Cast time.


Combined DPM = (1465 + 3163) / (340 + 475) = 5.67 Dpm


Combined DPCT = (1465 + 3163) / 3 = 1542 dpct


If anything, you shouldn’t ever cast bitter cold, its less dps and far less efficient than venom of the wild.
 
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Swiftur said:
No, it's not because it's not one vs. the other. Its one and the other vs. one spell. Factoring in cool down on venom 2 which is nearly 3 seconds. so its 1.5 + 1.5 + 3.0 = 6.0 seconds. You can't just apply caster only math to this situation, that was my point. Also, we aren't rangers. We can't bow in between our casts. Not to mention with the exception of exposure the ranger nukes are 0.5. They don't lose anything, why should we? We interrupt our melee output to cast these spells, with raid haste, that's nearly 15 (potential)hits, not to mention procs that we are sacrificing to cast these spells, making them not worth it and a wash. That's literally the reason I can do as much DPS when using shadow shurikens vs. horok and rod of pox/spear. Because these spells can be done in between throws.
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you know you can melee w/ spell gems on cooldown..... unless its some weird enchanter/ranger/every other class only thing
 
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Swiftur is failing at math... but I'm definitely feeling that BST still have a long way to go as far as becoming 'viable'. They will never use DOTs on content where swarm pets stay alive (because its more efficient dps, and costs enough to burn through their whole mana pool), and even then they are still way behind other dps classes.

Where is the love to their pet? Runic pet needs a serious dps increase, and the intermediate bet between 63 and runic is probably a good idea too.
 
Silosobi said:
Swiftur is failing at math... but I'm definitely feeling that BST still have a long way to go as far as becoming 'viable'. They will never use DOTs on content where swarm pets stay alive (because its more efficient dps, and costs enough to burn through their whole mana pool), and even then they are still way behind other dps classes.
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This is what i was trying to say. and yes my math sucks. Just using swarm pets, bitter cold and venom ONCE. is over 1700 mana... that's over a 1/5 of my mana pool. These DOTs need to get a lot better w/o the crutch of bitter cold. Increase all bst dots by 70% base (of original, not updated votw) and remove bitter cold and give us icerend. That will give a 22% improvement on dots so that they no longer rely on bitter cold to be cast, and Icerend is an improvement over bitter cold for burst deeps (curses, killshots, etc.) Also, swarm pets still dont proc bracers!!! PLEEEEASE! @Taryth
 
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So these DoTs are a ~50 dps upgrade? BST are about 200-300dps what I would consider the lower tier dps classes, and 500-700dps behind the higher tier dps. (Numbers at T13)

The runic pet definitely needs a boost, if nothing else, because it is just plain silly how little you gain going from level 63 to the runic pet.

Another area of consideration is the swarm pets. Beastlord Runic Swarm pets are really nice. They actually add about 200 dps when they stay alive, so on fights with a single target and no AEs, BST dps isn't terrible. Of course in these cases, BST won't really be gaining anything from their DOTs because they are way better off spending mana on the swarmpets. The main issue is that these situations are super rare, so most of the time its just a question of "will my swarm pet live long enough to do more damage than DOTs would for the same mana?" Usually the answer is no. Of course, even if we really buffed swarm pet survivability, they would just replace DOTs, instead of working together.

I still think a nice combination of improved DOTs, improved pet damage/scaling, and maybe some mods to cunninc/savagery/stances would be in order.

Were on the right track, but there is a ways to go.
 
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