God help us, its a BST thread

Silosobi said:
So these DoTs are a ~50 dps upgrade? BST are about 200-300dps what I would consider the lower tier dps classes, and 500-700dps behind the higher tier dps. (Numbers at T13)

The runic pet definitely needs a boost, if nothing else, because it is just plain silly how little you gain going from level 63 to the runic pet.

Another area of consideration is the swarm pets. Beastlord Runic Swarm pets are really nice. They actually add about 200 dps when they stay alive, so on fights with a single target and no AEs, BST dps isn't terrible. Of course in these cases, BST won't really be gaining anything from their DOTs because they are way better off spending mana on the swarmpets. The main issue is that these situations are super rare, so most of the time its just a question of "will my swarm pet live long enough to do more damage than DOTs would for the same mana?" Usually the answer is no. Of course, even if we really buffed swarm pet survivability, they would just replace DOTs, instead of working together.

I still think a nice combination of improved DOTs, improved pet damage/scaling, and maybe some mods to cunninc/savagery/stances would be in order.

Were on the right track, but there is a ways to go.
Click to expand...
There is no doubt swarm pets are really nice... on long fights. In the grouping/xp arena the problem with swarm pets is the super long cooldown (in this scenario) and we only get to use about half their lifespan or less because they poof when the mob dies. A remedy to this could be another version of the swarm pet spell, or many different versions of different level swarm pets, these could vary in lvl and amount summoned, fleshing it out through the class. Im thinking a level 30, 44, and 60 version of these spells that summon appropriate level pets depending on level and less of them that are on a shorter cool down but also don't cost as much mana. They could all summon 3-4 pets that last for 18-24 seconds on a 30 second cooldown, this would solve the problem of swarm pets in grouping situations, and clearly the runic spell would be significantly better for raiding and bosses.

Also, all of these, including the runic spell should proc detrimental bracers!
 
Last edited:
As I've said, this is incremental change time. You're not going to see a 300dps boost all at once. I've talked with a few BLs who have been VERY helpful and insightful on making the class better, and the posts have helped, now it's just picking the right path.
 
OK yay, got the go-ahead for things! So the spells first:

Spells
--------
- Glaciation of Blood - like Funeral Pyre (necro) but cold-based and a faster cast time because hybrid. Numbers may need tweaking.
- Hakahm's Companion Curse - another in the curse line of spells - ALL pets will crit against the target while it runs. It will last for double the normal curse duration as long as it doesn't end up being OP. This is unique to BLs, and should increase their desirability, I would hope, with other pet classes. Shorter CD than other curses due to its more limited nature
- Removal of Plague, which will stay in the other classes that currently have it
- Glaciation will have a progression set like Ignite Blood for lower levels, working out exactly when these will come in
- Bump to Venom of the Wild (already done)

AA
------
- Great suggestion yesterday, Spirit Speed (the AA) will become a spell, and the new Curse will take place of the AA. This will make a spell slot a bit more accessible

Stances
----------
- Still finalizing what these look like, but looking at 2 or 3 that drain stamina. NO I HAVE NO PLANS TO GET RID OF /S7!!!!

TBD
-------
I know, Runic2 pet. I'm probably going to do that last TBH, but I know it still needs doing

Questions
------------
- Savagery is not going to lose its components, and with that, I question it's remaining usefulness. How do folks feel about getting rid of it? What can we REALISTICALLY replace it with? If you say ice comet i will beat u
- Spirit of Tearing: I don't like this spell, I'm still torn on what to do with it
- Bitter Cold: probably going away, incorporated into one of the stances. How do folks feel about this?

USEFUL feedback pls.
 
Last edited:
Taryth said:
Questions
------------
- Savagery is not going to lose its components, and with that, I question it's remaining usefulness. How do folks feel about getting rid of it? What can we REALISTICALLY replace it with? If you say ice comet i will beat u
- Spirit of Tearing: I don't like this spell, I'm still torn on what to do with it
- Bitter Cold: probably going away, incorporated into one of the stances. How do folks feel about this?

USEFUL feedback pls.
Click to expand...

Savagery: Please don't get rid of it. The problem is not the need for components. It's a broader issue of not having any viable/wearable reagent con. options as a Beastlord... As I stated in devchat, there are 2 that i can think of that are decent wearable items in game with Reagent Con 7+ that I can even wear. One does not even drop anymore (http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Delirium) and poses a problem anyway because it sits in Back slot where Sorrow back is BIS. The other is a range item from Mielech D which i've only seen a link of once and don't know what drops it.

Spirit of Tearing: Make it allow the pet to DB or Flurry in addition to an improved dmg proc. Debuff is less important in my opinion. It would have to be something worth losing the group heal over.

Bittcr Cold: The only reason to use this spell is to make dots more powerful. That's it. However, because of this, it is valuable to know when its going to be on the mob. If it becomes a proc off the pet or something else based on RNG, it won't have value anymore unless we have some kind of returned emote that tells us when its on the mob, rather than just hoping it is when we cast our 475 mana dots...

I have no problems with seeing the spell go away, however that means that our dots lose 48% effectiveness, so to replace that loss and continue the improvements that our class needs, I recommend that bst only dots dmg be increased by 70%, This would cover the 48% loss from bitter cold recourse while preserving a buff slot (which we all know bst have problems with) as well as provide a small damage boost to these dots (the 22% equivalent (50dmg base) was basically already added to venom, new dot shouldn't need adjustment).

To cover the loss of a nuke however, simply give Beastlords Icerend, the 0.5 second cast time nuke that rangers get. It's still cold base, it's got a cooldown and does more damage.
 
Glaciation of Blood
Cool! I really like this spell, feels right for BST.

Hakahm's Companion Curse
Also really awesome change! Don't think it will be OP. We were thinking about the numbers, and on a raid stacked with tons of pet classes, this might add like 2000 dps. Probably 1000 on a normal T13 raid. Considering Caster curse can add like 10,000-20,000 dps, this doesn't seem too wild. 24s, stretched over the 5 min reuse is like 70dps on a normal T13 raid. My one concern, is that we don't just consider this a +70 dps to BST competetive DPS. No other class has their buff/utility dps added in parse comparisons. Also, one of my big concerns in this whole thing is how abysmal BST are in 6man, and this is another ability that increases raid utility with minimal boost in group/6man situations.

Great suggestion yesterday, Spirit Speed (the AA) will become a spell, and the new Curse will take place of the AA.
Good stuff here, although my understanding was that Spirit Speed would just be combined into the existing BST Haste spell, raising its amount, and not a new spell. Is this correct?

Still finalizing what these look like, but looking at 2 or 3 that drain stamina. NO I HAVE NO PLANS TO GET RID OF /S7!!!!
s7 is one of the defining BST things that is really cool and useful, good to hear its staying. Any info on the new BST stances? PBAE would be cool, monks lost it, necros lost it, this is an area I think is particularly lacking right now.

I know, Runic2 pet. I'm probably going to do that last TBH, but I know it still needs doing
As long as it gets done... Also whats happening with the pet survivability stuff? Are AEs being included here? Because PS/WW help, but 95% of fights kill pets with magic damage nukes, not meele.

Savagery is not going to lose its components, and with that, I question it's remaining usefulness. How do folks feel about getting rid of it? What can we REALISTICALLY replace it with? If you say ice comet i will beat u
Getting rid of savagery wouldn't be the worst idea, but I always thought it was a cool spell, the implementation is just meh. I think just having an ability that you have to recast every few minutes on a rotation of different targets, in order to maintain efficiency, just sounds tedious and annoying, which just compounds the annoyance of summoning dots every time you log in. A random idea: Make it sort of like the old Avatar. 1 min duration, 10 min recast: 250 ATK 100ALL RESIST 50ALL STAT 100AC +25% pet damage if cast on self. You can cast it on the ranger/rogue for big meele burn phases. You can cast it on the tank when they are getting super wrecked by the monster. And the pet damage means its actually strong cast on the BST themselves, helping their group viability (also stacks well with the pet curse, if cast on self)

Spirit of Tearing: I don't like this spell, I'm still torn on what to do with it
I think a simple raw number buff would do the trick here (remember that pets dont mod damage, so a 200 damage proc on a player is doing closer to 400 with a lot of crits, a 200 damage proc on pets is doing 200 damage with no crits). Bump it up to 350 damage, 30AC, 25Resist Debuff, and I think it would gain situational uses. It usually doesn't matter, but on fights where a mob is right on the edge of resisting nukes, 25 more adjust can actually make a reasonable difference.

- Bitter Cold: probably going away, incorporated into one of the stances. How do folks feel about this?
I definitely like this. It always felt really clunky to have to cast another spell to make DoTs semi reasonable, while also massively inflating the mana you had to spend to dish out half decent damage. Making it into a stance that can be applied instantly, without mana cost, seems so much better to me. I'm just hoping that the DOT boost stance will only be slow stamina drain, and there can be something better as a BURN stance (although it could incorporate DoT damage too). Maybe something like:
Ice Stance: 40% Increase to DOT damage. Very Slow stamina drain.
Fire Frenzy Stance: 75% Increase to DOT damage. 25% Overhaste. 25% Chance to Flurry. Moderate-Fast stamina drain(exhaustive?)
 
Last edited:
Silosobi said:
A random idea: Make it sort of like the old Avatar. 1 min duration, 10 min recast: 250 ATK 100ALL RESIST 50ALL STAT 100AC +25% pet damage if cast on self. You can cast it on the ranger/rogue for big meele burn phases. You can cast it on the tank when they are getting super wrecked by the monster. And the pet damage means its actually strong cast on the BST themselves, helping their group viability (also stacks well with the pet curse, if cast on self)
Click to expand...
I am not down with this. Don't change Savagery
Silosobi said:
Maybe something like:
Ice Stance: 40% Increase to DOT damage. Very Slow stamina drain.
Fire Frenzy Stance: 75% Increase to DOT damage. 25% Overhaste. 25% Chance to Flurry. Moderate-Fast stamina drain(exhaustive?)
Click to expand...
We shouldn't need to stance for our spells to be on the same level as other hybrids spells w/o stances. I'm all for a low stam drain stance that makes the pet mimic all the spells and procs of the master. But DOTs should be addressed on their own. Not through stances.
 
Last edited:
Savagery: is a really useful spell and with an active bst it can be kept up on 3 characters at the same time. For raids it makes rangers and rogues love us, and for grouping the +50 sv all cast on tank can be huge and what makes an encounter possible or not. While getting peridots is annoying, the spell is really useful. Please don't remove it!
The biggest issues with it atm is itemization. There are hardly no reagent con items that are viable options to wear for bsts. (switching in a reagent con item is not really an option since that happening in fights would mean a lot higher risk for items dissapearing and would make it tough to keep savagery up on 3 characters).

Bitter Cold: You can just remove it, the suggestion of replacing it with the ranger dd would be great! Putting it in a stance might be an option, just let us get rid of the wasted buffslot.
 
Taryth said:
AA
------
- Great suggestion yesterday, Spirit Speed (the AA) will become a spell, and the new Curse will take place of the AA. This will make a spell slot a bit more accessible
Click to expand...

A while ago woldaff made a post that spirit speed would just be rolled into the base pet and then they'd get a new aa. I think that's way better than it taking up a spell slot, considering beastlords already have plenty of buffs to load to cast on their pet.

Taryth said:
Questions
------------
- Savagery is not going to lose its components, and with that, I question it's remaining usefulness. How do folks feel about getting rid of it? What can we REALISTICALLY replace it with? If you say ice comet i will beat u
- Spirit of Tearing: I don't like this spell, I'm still torn on what to do with it
- Bitter Cold: probably going away, incorporated into one of the stances. How do folks feel about this?
Click to expand...

I personally always hated savagery every time i've played my beastlord. While it is very powerful it is the exact opposite of what I would ever consider fun. I'd Personally way rather have some of the ATK rolled baseline into SV and it removed, because the resists matter on all of like one fight ever, and its just not enjoyable to constantly have to micromanage a buff thats duration is too short to require constant attention, but too long to just fire and forget.

As for bitter cold, I hate to say it, but I agree with swiftur. The dot focus increase should just be rolled baseline into the dots. Having to cast another spell to make your semi-weak dots only okay is 100% silly, and making it a stance is not really any better.
 
Swiftur said:
We shouldn't need to stance for our spells to be on the same level as other hybrids spells w/o stances. I'm all for a low stam drain stance that makes the pet mimic all the spells and procs of the master. But DOTs should be addressed on their own. Not through stances.
Click to expand...

Real talk.

And give BSTs a slow that stacks with all other slows!
 
Last edited:
I don't think savagery should go away. I think something that makes it less tedious to keep track of and that isn't constantly wearing off would be much more appreciated than losing its reagent component.
 
Spells
--------
- Glaciation of Blood - like Funeral Pyre (necro) but cold-based and a faster cast time because hybrid. Numbers may need tweaking.
Great idea, can wait to see it in action.

- Hakahm's Companion Curse - another in the curse line of spells - ALL pets will crit against the target while it runs. It will last for double the normal curse duration as long as it doesn't end up being OP. This is unique to BLs, and should increase their desirability, I would hope, with other pet classes. Shorter CD than other curses due to its more limited nature
Another great idea. Does this effect their procs and nukes too?

- Removal of Plague, which will stay in the other classes that currently have it
No problems here dont think ive cast that spell more then 7 times on my BL ever.

- Glaciation will have a progression set like Ignite Blood for lower levels, working out exactly when these will come in
might have to level a new beastlord to check this out.

- Bump to Venom of the Wild (already done)


AA
------
- Great suggestion yesterday, Spirit Speed (the AA) will become a spell, and the new Curse will take place of the AA. This will make a spell slot a bit more accessible
Taryth said:
Yeah gonna roll Spirit Speed into the existing haste spell. Since it can be up 100% of the time now, I see absolutely no reason not to.
Click to expand...
this becomes a problem when generalized pet haste improvements come out like mielichs corruption spell slaar made. i would much rather see it rolled into the base pets somehow. like through dmg


Stances
----------
- Still finalizing what these look like, but looking at 2 or 3 that drain stamina. NO I HAVE NO PLANS TO GET RID OF /S7!!!!
Excited about this. but if bitter cold is gonna become a stance wont that mean we will mostly be using that....

TBD
-------
I know, Runic2 pet. I'm probably going to do that last TBH, but I know it still needs doing
Thank you sweet baby Jesus! Finally!

Questions
------------
- Savagery is not going to lose its components, and with that, I question it's remaining usefulness. How do folks feel about getting rid of it? What can we REALISTICALLY replace it with? If you say ice comet i will beat u
Honestly i like the avatar idea. honestly i think it would improve the class if you got rid of the spell and replaced it with anything even close to as useful. The janky way this was forced to me implemented make it more detrimental to the fun of the beastlord then anything else. so yeah get rid of it, if we get something else instead even better.

- Spirit of Tearing: I don't like this spell, I'm still torn on what to do with it
- Bitter Cold: probably going away, incorporated into one of the stances. How do folks feel about this?
perhaps make it the new bitter cold. while ur pets attacking ur target ur dots are actually good. also give it a cool little dd proc and a very high proc chance.
 
mechkl said:
Savagery is not going to lose its components, and with that, I question it's remaining usefulness. How do folks feel about getting rid of it? What can we REALISTICALLY replace it with? If you say ice comet i will beat u
Honestly i like the avatar idea. honestly i think it would improve the class if you got rid of the spell and replaced it with anything even close to as useful. The janky way this was forced to me implemented make it more detrimental to the fun of the beastlord then anything else. so yeah get rid of it, if we get something else instead even better.
Click to expand...
The problem with a short duration more intense buff w/ longer cooldown means that we only get to use it on one person, and in nearly all raiding or 6man scenarios, that wont be us. I would much rather give myself and 2 others 100 atk that lasts for 15+ minutes...
 
Last edited:
Thade said:
I personally always hated savagery every time i've played my beastlord. While it is very powerful it is the exact opposite of what I would ever consider fun. I'd Personally way rather have some of the ATK rolled baseline into SV and it removed, because the resists matter on all of like one fight ever, and its just not enjoyable to constantly have to micromanage a buff thats duration is too short to require constant attention, but too long to just fire and forget.
Click to expand...
I don't hate casting savagery at all, though I do think it costs waaaay too much mana (450? c'mon man). Keeps me active in a way thats not just dpsing mob. I agree with you that the resists arent much help as you progress. Maybe rather than the +50saves savagery could have a stacking 10% stamina loss reduction? This would increase the burn ability of moderate to high consumption melee stances (Rng double shot, Rog double dmg, etc.) and would be more useful later through the tiers as resists arent needed as much. Because lets face it, if the resists from Savagery are being considered to make or break afight, everyone else in the raid who doesnt have it is dead... #farhagsboss
 
Last edited:
ok so here's what i'm going with. i apologize, it's super rough. i had a long run today on a treadmill (ugh) so got bored and roughed some shit out. you guys can argue out the specifics of it later to keep it from being stupid OP good.

first, things we can all agree on:
-- having to load a mage every time u log into the game to summon 40 dots is silly
-- keeping a timer next to your computer that goes off to remind you to savage the next person is silly
-- Slaar and Taryth are never ever ever going to agree to remove the reagent component
------ Reagent con items as it stands now are not worth swapping in every 5min just to savage person. It no longer becomes a fun game but a tedious job but doesn't pay for your rent/hookers/drugs
-- Swiftur is a giant twat

Ok. now that the entire server has agreed 100% to ALL of the above bullets, let's see how we can remedy this.

Let's start the spell from scratch. For the sake of argument the spell does literally nothing right now except take up a buff slot. The nuances of what it SHOULD do will be fleshed out by all y'all in later posts.

Spell: Savagery
Description: Wastes a buff slot
Requirements: Consumes Peridot when cast

QoL Kedrin talk here, let's go the route of Divine Benevolence, still consumes a Peridot. Maybe 2, I dunno, you'll see in a sec.

Spell: Group Savagery

Current Savagery, with Duration 8, is 20min 30sec duration. 5min CD. Cunning, with Duration 8, is 25min duration. 10 min CD. Cunning is to casters as savagery is to melee. Let's mirror those times.

Spell: Group Savagery
Description: Wastes a buff slot
Requirements: Consumes Peridot when cast
Duration: 25min. Recast time: 10min

^^^ That is where reagant con comes in. because the recast time means that if you try to do 2 groups, you'll get a 5min overlap where the primary group doesn't have it. SO, just like with cunning, you just keep it on the 1 group and on bosses you do it a lil early so u can hit 2 groups with it for bonus brownie points with ur guild about how awesome u are at casting the one buff ppl care about. End result.... 90% of the time you only cast it every 23-24min to keep it from fading. I'm willing to swap in a reagant con roughly every half hour and just buy a stupid stack of peridots.

Edit: Something about that overlap doesn't make sense but I don't feel like using brain cells right now. Someone draw me a graph. I want pictures when you tell me why I'm dumb.

Also, Swiftur is a twat. BOOM, with all of that we have covered the top 5 100% agreed upon bullet points by the entire past/present/future SoD community. Last bullet point was hard to work out but we did it guys. Mission accomplished.

Now I'll let you guys work out the Description of what the spell does. I do have some ideas which i'll briefly outline. But I believe the spell as is should be scrapped for something.... less consistent but more useful type behaviors WHICH if done right could tie into tome 3 (this was taryth's thought). No more +atk, no more resists. screw all that.

Draw ideas from Aztec rituals, Mongolian conquest, etc... Things done in the past (fiction/non-fiction) that draw up ideas of what being "a savage" is all about. Personally, I like the mental imagery cause it helps me come up with the specifics.

Base Properties:
Stamina Reduction by 10 (Here's your kudos to that Swiftur) --- Heart racing... in the "heat of the moment" so adrenline pumping. Physical exertion gets ignored in the fight or flight response.
% chance to flurry on riposte --- Another adrenaline response. How would act if someone just came up and punched you in the face and you were Ghengis Khan? Unleash Hell
Something minor. --- It's late, I have a massive headache.

Bonus Properties (only get if BST is in the group):
Rank 1 - Awesome but not OP thing 1
Rank 2 - Awesome but not OP thing 2
Rank 3 - Awesome but not OP thing 3
Rank 4 - Awesome but not OP thing 4

I've seen numerous ppl want the Word of Power Tomes put onto the Bst too. I've also seen a retarded stupid # of bst pets die in my nearly 7 years playing. I also don't want to see my dps go from 80/20 me/pet to 20/80 by doing this move. Pet is awesome. Pet dies a lot. Pet dies, dps dies. So i figured put it on the bst itself. Having the Bonus properties would encourage 2 things. 1) Bringing a sufficiently geared bst on 6mans if the Ranks are good enough. 2) Bringing more than 1 bst to a raid.

Yeah, I'm not creative. Bonus properties is a total mix of Blademaster and Word of Power if they got drunk one night and forgot protection. Enjoy. Feel free to bash, it's normal.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom