In that situation, you are not expected to build aggro on the boss. In fact, from the end of that zone and onward, paladins are essentially a utility class on raids. You get to tank adds. Nobody wants to be careful with how much dps they are outputting on a boss for fear of a wipe. Put a shadow knight on it instead. Its perfectly fine to scale your aggro behind the MT on a boss fight, I used to just use a 2h sword, regular blinds, and targeted heals on the MT. Chances are you will die before healers can target you after the MT dies, anyway. Especially if you are mousing around your inventory trying to equip a sword and shield.
Paladin agro (yes everyone knows it's horrible)
- Thread starter Atada
- Start date
cian2
Dalayan Master
you are cherry picking a specific situation where your class is at a disadvantage. you could do the same for warriors. but not for SKs because they are the best tank at everything.
there are a few fights paladins can't tank because of high MR, but i'm skeptical to call them a utility class. however, they do have the incredibly useful ability to be very solid healers as offtanks, unlike warriors or SKs
there are a few fights paladins can't tank because of high MR, but i'm skeptical to call them a utility class. however, they do have the incredibly useful ability to be very solid healers as offtanks, unlike warriors or SKs
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This is just one example of many I can give where paladins are left feeling gimp. The other 2 tank classes have much greater chance to recover the raid after The MT goes down. I'm pointing out that paladins don't have the same luxury when it's a matter of a tank picking up a loose mob. I'm staying paladins don't have the necessary tools since our blinds don't add enough threat when they actually do land. I'm not sure the administration intended for this to happen.
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
We had the same discussions years ago when foe lock went in.
Gotta admit, that I only briefly played SoD in the last couple of years and only on XP-occasions but I never felt, that at any point Paladinaggro was broken in general.
You don't have an "OH SHIT"-instasnap aggro option and generate considerably less hate then your resident SK but on the other hand you DO have some neat utlity options that other tankclasses don't have.
I was able to offtank OP/IP and LT/UT (as off 5 years ago) and even managed to take down Manis in OP with me being the only tank with Balthor.
Again, this is not even remotely close of being up to date, nor is it higher end raiding but it still sort of proofs, that in general you are able to keep a mob on you. Maybe pallys with their overall (and niche) utility aren't meant to perform as "Oh crap"-emergancy tanks as well.
Just throwing in my 2cp on the matter.
Gotta admit, that I only briefly played SoD in the last couple of years and only on XP-occasions but I never felt, that at any point Paladinaggro was broken in general.
You don't have an "OH SHIT"-instasnap aggro option and generate considerably less hate then your resident SK but on the other hand you DO have some neat utlity options that other tankclasses don't have.
I was able to offtank OP/IP and LT/UT (as off 5 years ago) and even managed to take down Manis in OP with me being the only tank with Balthor.
Again, this is not even remotely close of being up to date, nor is it higher end raiding but it still sort of proofs, that in general you are able to keep a mob on you. Maybe pallys with their overall (and niche) utility aren't meant to perform as "Oh crap"-emergancy tanks as well.
Just throwing in my 2cp on the matter.
cian2
Dalayan Master
to my knowledge paladin aggro hasn't been nerfed since the heal nerf which iirc occured in 2007, in fact bash aggro was buffed a huge amount somewhere along the way. correct me if i'm wrong
i've played all 3 tanks for a lot of tomes worth of exp, and i've never really run into this class breaking aggro problem. if aggro is a big problem, you can spam stuns for ~700 aggro, and maximize blinding and bashing to optimize your aggro. i spent years raiding with bango as the main tank and these serious aggro problems just didn't really exist except on high MR bosses. post runic2 change, aggro wasn't even a thought anymore. i actually prefer playing paladin of all the tanks, i played a lot of vartenaal and more recently bango. they are a class that really excels with skill, and is an active and fun class to play. they are also tremendously powerful healers in certain situations, especially in 6 mans, and bring added utility of potl, piety, loh.
sure you can't keep super high aggro on a boss while offtanking multiple mobs, warriors can't either without AE taunt, but i would gladly accept the challenge. blind each offtank mob once, assuming they aren't being dpsed, then you can weave in triple blinds on the main boss + also hit it with ae stun. monks can feign to drop aggro if the tank dies, rogues could potentially be a problem but smart ones can escape, ranged already have 30% less aggro simply by virtue of being out of melee range. i've seen many times on hard bosses like custodian and blazewind where stryda or jraul or whoever dies and bango successfully picks it up and we kill the boss, unless he's using conduit (another awesome ability).
i'm not saying i wouldn't like to see them buffed. i really like the idea of group hot giving a veil-like effect, or some other change allowing them to be able to utilize their heals more often. i think it's only fair seeing as the massive buffs SKs and warriors have gotten, but paladins are entirely viable right now. i think poor play and public stigma is the main thing holding them back. the paladin community has way overplayed their plight which I think is the main reason devs are afraid to touch the subject any more.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Post-dps combo I pulled aggro off every pally I grouped with and essentially couldn't do BQ or Cita with a pally tank without either A) purposefully lowering my bad dps even lower, B) causing assist penalties, or C) tanking the last 20-50% of every mob and causing healers to burn through mana healing me. At the same time any halfway decent warrior or SK could still hold aggro fine as long as I timed my feigns appropriately.
Then again when I play solosolki I can still dps just fine with a pally tank with pretty much the same spell rotation as with warriors and SKs. So in my experience pallies definitely don't generate as much aggro as the other tank classes without dumping mana on runic2, but it's still sufficient most of the time.
Then again when I play solosolki I can still dps just fine with a pally tank with pretty much the same spell rotation as with warriors and SKs. So in my experience pallies definitely don't generate as much aggro as the other tank classes without dumping mana on runic2, but it's still sufficient most of the time.
cian2
Dalayan Master
monks do massive aggro, they have the highest aggro of any class imo, by design in some cases (lleoc) but of course you can offset this by feigning on cooldown, you don't give an assist penalty unless the mob is already aggro on you when you fd. i've seen and played lleoc innumerable times with paladin tanks and the monk chooses whether or not he'll be tanking the mobs, that's part of the essence of the class.
of course, high tier monks can tank exp mobs just fine so it's sort of a moot point. in fact, you can make a strong argument that monks are the best exp tanks in the game t10+, but that's another thing entirely, and depends on the healing configuration of the group and commitment to efficiency/ease of play.
of course, high tier monks can tank exp mobs just fine so it's sort of a moot point. in fact, you can make a strong argument that monks are the best exp tanks in the game t10+, but that's another thing entirely, and depends on the healing configuration of the group and commitment to efficiency/ease of play.
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Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
Sorry man but this is 100% incorrect unless they changed FD mechanics very recently.
And maybe monks with a 4.3 robe are the best exp tanks. Every non-lleoc monk takes a lot more damage than a tank of equal tier. When I was bored and parsed incoming damage on Susvain versus Zorr it was pretty discouraging.
Using bango as reference to how paladin agro is post T9 =LOL. Countless people point to Bango...it doesn't work. Also, if you bring runic 2 into the mix then you could also talk about SK runic 2 which makes them the best AE agro in aaddition to the best single target agro. Paladins are getting shafted on both. I'm talking about paladins not scaling well at all versus DPS in terms of agro post T9.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
bango/apros/sema/vartenaal/lindstrom weren't created at t12 with 60 tomes, they had to progress through the game tanking bosses and exp, and they did it just fine. Yes paladins could use a buff, but they are already sufficient tanks and can fulfill the role of a healer in certain situations. If multiple paladins have progressed through the game tanking every raid encounter and 6 man encounters, perhaps the class is fine
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
By this logic there's no need to ever do any more class balance in this game.
cian2
Dalayan Master
what is your logic here? what did bango have that current progressing paladins do not have? I would argue he had it harder than current day paladins do. also, your paladin runic2 argument actually works against you, since it wasn't changed to it's current form until after bango was already t13. also also, SKs are the best AE tank even without r2.
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donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Another one of these lists that apparently even touched the cruel black heart of Paladin cheerleader #1:
1. Change self heals to a zealot's strike type spell. This is a small but noticeable increase to Pally dps and in turn aggro as well as good utility in non-tanking scenarios.
2. Veil effect on GHoTs. Starts small at 5% and maybe as high as 15-20% on the runic. This also provides a good option for the third class tome (see 4). Scales for high tiers as a bonus.
3. Scrap Divine Stun (which sucks and is all but useless) for a new AA called "Judgement" which is a Divine Light 2.0- unresistable nuke.
4. Change "Hand of Piety" to a HoT with an exceptional (50%) Veil effect.
5. Change /s 7 Lady's Strike to something that shows less contempt for players. "Grants the Paladin an area of effect hate proc. Procs very rarely, does not generate much aggro, drains stamina fast." Seriously?
Congratulations, you have just made Paladin core/heal abilities interesting and part of the primary role of tanking, increased DPS mildly, alleviated Paladin MR mob woes, and made the class all around more fun to play.
1. Change self heals to a zealot's strike type spell. This is a small but noticeable increase to Pally dps and in turn aggro as well as good utility in non-tanking scenarios.
2. Veil effect on GHoTs. Starts small at 5% and maybe as high as 15-20% on the runic. This also provides a good option for the third class tome (see 4). Scales for high tiers as a bonus.
3. Scrap Divine Stun (which sucks and is all but useless) for a new AA called "Judgement" which is a Divine Light 2.0- unresistable nuke.
4. Change "Hand of Piety" to a HoT with an exceptional (50%) Veil effect.
5. Change /s 7 Lady's Strike to something that shows less contempt for players. "Grants the Paladin an area of effect hate proc. Procs very rarely, does not generate much aggro, drains stamina fast." Seriously?
Congratulations, you have just made Paladin core/heal abilities interesting and part of the primary role of tanking, increased DPS mildly, alleviated Paladin MR mob woes, and made the class all around more fun to play.
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Stop using real logic against """logic""".
OR
"Never engage in a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent"
OR
Thread over! Close down the balance forum too.
OR
Notice how even the people claiming Paladins are just whiners tend to agree in passing that Paladins could use a boost? Maybe the problem is that all of things are relative so the others tanks should get nerfed instead. That is the way to do it, right? Why give classes new buttons to mash or toys to play with when you can just take away the happy people's buttons or ruin them.
unrelated quote:
Please for the love of god do not do ANY of these except maybe number 2, you people asking for heals to be zealot strikes should be ashamed and don't understand having non-damaging heals on yourself is extremely beneficial in many situations (any kind of mirror golem is just the beginning)
I am sorry but I maybe have tanked 4-6 mobs less than bango in this game on my paladin (who is not quite Bango status... but close I guess) and if you ask any players that I have played with through the tiers, they will say I was one of, if not the best of any tank they have raided or 6 manned with.
So could they use a slight buff ? maybe. But you all QQing because you don't push buttons properly is really irritating, and posts like the one I have quoted would just absolutely ruin the class I love. Maybe Paladins are not the best / most efficient XP tank in the game, but that is only one aspect. I still managed to finish every tome I could and have around 1400AA unspent these days, so XP can't be that hard can it?
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
I really enjoy that all of your posts seem to belittle others for being so stupid that they cannot understand things. Really it is the best thing about them. Well, that and how drama filled you make not liking one of five suggestions sound because YOU cannot UNDERSTAND how there are many situations where a zealots strike would be handy... or maybe you just value one over the other and are not a total idiot like all of us on the other side of the issue who understand nothing.