wolfwalkerEci
Banned Jerk
Any guild use DKP? (besides exodus, if they still use dkp)
Question
- Thread starter wolfwalkerEci
- Start date
GuiardoTuneweaver
Staff Emeritus
The relevance of my answer will depend on the intent of your question, so beware. =P
Revelation used DKP the first time around. Guild dissolved for a while, then came back together and is now using an award system using the judgement of officers. Under the new system, there has been SO MUCH less drama, SO MANY fewer unhappy people, and SO MUCH less stress. And even more importantly, the guild progressed much faster because upgrades were strategic for the guild. Everyone in the guild makes out better since we're able to progress faster, even though upgrades may be a bit uneven over short periods.
Revelation used DKP the first time around. Guild dissolved for a while, then came back together and is now using an award system using the judgement of officers. Under the new system, there has been SO MUCH less drama, SO MANY fewer unhappy people, and SO MUCH less stress. And even more importantly, the guild progressed much faster because upgrades were strategic for the guild. Everyone in the guild makes out better since we're able to progress faster, even though upgrades may be a bit uneven over short periods.
wolfwalkerEci
Banned Jerk
Point of this post is to see what others will input.
BeittilBonker
Dalayan Adventurer
What is the relevance of this btw?
Firestormers
no clue of the relevance but beittil be honest more then half the posts on any forum have no relevance whatsoever.
no clue of the relevance but beittil be honest more then half the posts on any forum have no relevance whatsoever.
BeittilBonker
Dalayan Adventurer
Lol true enough... can easily make that 90%+ to i bet
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
I'm in rev, so obviously the system I'm with is merit.
When I decided to enter the raid game in SoD, after a couple years of playing WoW and all that entails, I swore I'd never be in a dkp guild again. My experience with DKP was that it was a despicable meta game that slowly ruined the otherwise fun game it was on top of. Each system was unique, and brought with it new and exciting ways to game other people and punish those who played fair.
And if you can trust people to play fair, than you don't really need DKP to begin with. No matter how I tried to slice it, I kept coming back to three important things.
1) I'm a reasonable person and a good player, so people should be able to see my merit, and thus I'll get loot. If people can't see my merit, I'm in the wrong guild.
2) If I can't trust the officers to be fair in loot decisions, then the guild is probably falling apart, and I'm in the wrong guild.
3) If you care about guild progression over personal progression, DKP is the worst of system to use. If more people care about the personal than the guild, I'm in the wrong guild.
Perhaps there was no other way for officers to deal with the 40+ people per raid that vanilla WoW provided. Maybe having thousands of people per server makes it impossible to get to know anyone, even your guildies. But the 18+ people in an SoD raid, and the smaller, more well knit community, is much more manageable.
That being said I don't look down on a guild that chooses DKP. Given how there is actual progression in SoD (unlike some other games where you can more easily skip entire 'tiers' and gear), perhaps a good system could be implemented for it by a creative person (SoDkP!). But you'll never see me in a DKP based guild.
When I decided to enter the raid game in SoD, after a couple years of playing WoW and all that entails, I swore I'd never be in a dkp guild again. My experience with DKP was that it was a despicable meta game that slowly ruined the otherwise fun game it was on top of. Each system was unique, and brought with it new and exciting ways to game other people and punish those who played fair.
And if you can trust people to play fair, than you don't really need DKP to begin with. No matter how I tried to slice it, I kept coming back to three important things.
1) I'm a reasonable person and a good player, so people should be able to see my merit, and thus I'll get loot. If people can't see my merit, I'm in the wrong guild.
2) If I can't trust the officers to be fair in loot decisions, then the guild is probably falling apart, and I'm in the wrong guild.
3) If you care about guild progression over personal progression, DKP is the worst of system to use. If more people care about the personal than the guild, I'm in the wrong guild.
Perhaps there was no other way for officers to deal with the 40+ people per raid that vanilla WoW provided. Maybe having thousands of people per server makes it impossible to get to know anyone, even your guildies. But the 18+ people in an SoD raid, and the smaller, more well knit community, is much more manageable.
That being said I don't look down on a guild that chooses DKP. Given how there is actual progression in SoD (unlike some other games where you can more easily skip entire 'tiers' and gear), perhaps a good system could be implemented for it by a creative person (SoDkP!). But you'll never see me in a DKP based guild.
BeittilBonker
Dalayan Adventurer
I dont see how creating a distribution system (ur SoDKP idea) is gonna help much tbh. After all, it is up to a guild to determine its way to handle loot really.
Exodus is DKP and were very happy with it really. We as a guild have made up some rules around the DKP bidding system (not gonna go into details) to prevent stuff like WAY WAY oldschool players with massive stocked DKP from comming back sniping the nice items, etc.
Also we do fairly often just pass on items if they are more beneficial for others in the guild, thus helping the guild forward, when we see fit.
Basically I just REALLY dont like merit systems and mainly for the 2nd arguement Cyzaine stated:
) fall apart.
Exodus is DKP and were very happy with it really. We as a guild have made up some rules around the DKP bidding system (not gonna go into details) to prevent stuff like WAY WAY oldschool players with massive stocked DKP from comming back sniping the nice items, etc.
Also we do fairly often just pass on items if they are more beneficial for others in the guild, thus helping the guild forward, when we see fit.
Basically I just REALLY dont like merit systems and mainly for the 2nd arguement Cyzaine stated:
Heh, Exodus was formed because of a merit system screwing over people. And it did cause a guild to (temporarily, their pretty ok again now
) fall apart.wolfwalkerEci
Banned Jerk
Um I was curious what people would say and I wanted to know if there was any other guild out there other then exodus that used DKP.
How about you troll somewhere else.
I believe that DKP is fair and equal. If you make X number of raids and earn the same DKP as everyone else your on equal footing to bid on whatever you want. If you go MIA and miss the next 25 raids then your sol until you raid more and catch up.
If an item drops that you really want you dont need to wait for someone to think your worthy of it. You dont need to sit there and link for loot and get told "sorry you dont raid enough to deserve loot."
Besides if you manage to stockpile 10k dpk and go mia and come back and new players in the guild are pist because you make a raid on a random day and outbid them on a item, I dont have a problem with that. You played with that guild often enough to earn all that dkp you have.
Ive seen good dkp and bad dkp and the same goes for merit systems. For the most part I dont like merit systems.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Uh, from my experience, no 2 DKP systems are identical, so they are somewhat customized.
I'd really like to hear your ideas for a SoDKP though.
GuiardoTuneweaver
Staff Emeritus
Yes, but it's fair and equal to individuals at the cost of benefit to the guild and guild progression, which really isn't fair to members. This was exactly the attitude and opinion we had going into Rev 1.0.
Our first 2 relics went to a necro and a mage, who were willing to bid all their dkp on them. Great for the necro and mage, but horrible for guild progression which desperately needed RAego, RFocus, WON, etc. which would have been much better for the guild as a whole. The same happened with armor, with someone getting outbid on a 50 mana upgrade by someone for whom it's only a 10 mana upgrade; not good for guild progression, not to mention the drama and hard feelings.
Rev 1.0 finally folded due to lack of ability to progress, due at least in part to being fair to individuals at the expense of the guild due to DKP. I thought it was a great idea in theory, and we tweaked the way it worked several times to try to circumvent the problems, but it just didn't work out for us in practice.
If I was designing a DKP system, I would base it off of tiers.
Tier 1 mob = 10 dkp
Tier 7 mob = 70 dkp
etc
So while an old guildy may come back to "snipe" a piece, if they raided for months straight with gear below their tier and didn't find anything worthwhile to bid on, they still contributed to building the guild's gear up by quite a bit, and deserve some loot that would be worthwhile to their toon later on. They contributed, so they should get some "pay" for their work. But with the tier multiplier, if they are absent to long, their DKP isn't worth nearly as much as people that stuck with it would have.
On guild firsts, I would do 2x dkp, since downing a new mob often requires several wipes and learning the fight. You wouldn't get to do that many mobs that night since it takes so long learning the new fight.
On key mobs like Taeshlin, or the first mob in a new tier, a 4x multiplier on first down since moving up a tier, your most likely going to take the entire night on that one fight.
While backfarming is VERY valuable to gear up new/less active toons, you don't want to reward full DKP. Backfarming every night is fine for people with the spare time or energy to do so, it will lead to burnout to the regulars. Yes, you want to encourage them to log on for backfarming, you don't want to make them feel it is mandatory. So I would reward anything that is considered off-night or backfarm a .4 multiplier. Enough that people willing to backfarm gets a decent payout for doing it, they aren't going to be so far ahead on normal nights that people that play only on raid night people are going to get shafted.
Each item that drops has a minimum bid of: (Tier #) * 10 (dkp/tier) * 10 (multiplier so that huge sums of dkp don't build up over time, see below),
Tier 1 item = 100 dkp
Tier 7 item = 700 dkp
This is calculated by:
18 (people) / 2 (loots/mob) = 9, round out to 10 for simplicity.
Figuring archaic/relics/ancients + chance of random 3rd drop - rots should roughly = 2 loots/mob overall.
If you figure all that out, if your guild is doing 3 named/raid, you will "earn" an upgrade every 3 raids (3 dkp payouts * 3 nights = 9 payouts. At tier 1, thats 90 dkp, almost enough to get you your upgrade.) You would need less then that if you help backfarm.
Over the long term, I think 3 raid nights per upgrade should roughly be average for an upgrade.
Or another way of looking at it is 18 people per mob, the guild is going up 180 dkp (for tier 1) for 2 loots. That gives about 20 dkp for slack needed to be made up by raiding offnights/backfarming. So the guild is going to roughly break even per mob if only 1 person is bidding. If more people are bidding, then there is going to be a negative balance of DKP for that fight. This again is made up due to how common rots are during backfarming. So its a slight drain or even parity for overall guild dkp every fight. Large amounts of DKP won't be in a person's dkp bank unless they are ringers.
Speaking of ringers... Since ringers help the guild progress much more quickly due to not needing gear and allowing fights to go smoother, they deserve the full dkp they get, so they get the best chance at getting gear that IS an upgrade for them. However, to prevent them hogging ALL the loot that is dropped, I would cap them at 80 * guild's current tier #. This gives them 8 upgrades when they feel like it, or a little bit less if people are bidding strongly.
A few extra rules:
No negative DKP. No loaning DKP. If you transfer to a new character, your DKP is thrown out and for the next 2 weeks worth of raiding, you receive only half DKP, unless your class transfer is by request from officers. Officers may grant a bonus for transfering to a new class if they deem it necessary.
Main warrior gets .1 dkp/fight. However, when they bid, their bid is automatically free minimum bid for an item (tier 7 = 700 dkp). If the warrior gets it at that 700, he does not go back any DKP. If he bids 730 dkp, he goes back 30. They can then choose to bid up normally, with their severely lessened pool. This prevents the warrior automatically getting anything that is even a minor upgrade for tank loot. Yes, +5 hp is nice, but if its a +20 hp upgrade to pally/sk, they should have a reasonable chance to outbid the warrior. This gives a nice preference to the warrior, but allows the SK/Pally to have a say in the loot as well.
Prison/thaz gems, valor quests items and other "collectable" items are minimum 10 dkp, and can be bid on normally.
Relics/Archaic frags: This is rough. I would mark the most "active" of the most needed class buffs. This most active person gets all relics until they get their buff/best spell(s).
For relics, I think the most active Cleric gets all relics until he gets raego. Then shammy until rfocus, eot, eotw. Then enchanter -> jb. Then druid -> won. They pay the minimum amount for the relic(s) they used up upon getting the last of their major spell(s). This is the only time someone can go negative DKP. Those people then may not bid on relics until the average relics/toon across the guild is 2. This gets the needed buffs out there asap, then allowing the other toons to get access to relics as quickly as possible.
Silent bidding - Everyone interested in bidding will /t the raid leader. The raid leader will announce the current bid. If no new bids are received within a minute, highest person wins the bid. This should help lessen the drama involved, in the case of people bidding others up, etc.
People that knowingly bid and already have that piece or something better receive a -50 * tier # hit to their dkp.
People that do something decidedly stupid (harass GMs, get jailed, go AFK just before a fight and not tell anybody) gets a -dkp decided by the officer(s).
It would be nice to have a /cm system that records dkp for you, but this would not be hard to make a log watcher program that does it for you.
Feel free to point out any problems you see with this system.
Tier 1 mob = 10 dkp
Tier 7 mob = 70 dkp
etc
So while an old guildy may come back to "snipe" a piece, if they raided for months straight with gear below their tier and didn't find anything worthwhile to bid on, they still contributed to building the guild's gear up by quite a bit, and deserve some loot that would be worthwhile to their toon later on. They contributed, so they should get some "pay" for their work. But with the tier multiplier, if they are absent to long, their DKP isn't worth nearly as much as people that stuck with it would have.
On guild firsts, I would do 2x dkp, since downing a new mob often requires several wipes and learning the fight. You wouldn't get to do that many mobs that night since it takes so long learning the new fight.
On key mobs like Taeshlin, or the first mob in a new tier, a 4x multiplier on first down since moving up a tier, your most likely going to take the entire night on that one fight.
While backfarming is VERY valuable to gear up new/less active toons, you don't want to reward full DKP. Backfarming every night is fine for people with the spare time or energy to do so, it will lead to burnout to the regulars. Yes, you want to encourage them to log on for backfarming, you don't want to make them feel it is mandatory. So I would reward anything that is considered off-night or backfarm a .4 multiplier. Enough that people willing to backfarm gets a decent payout for doing it, they aren't going to be so far ahead on normal nights that people that play only on raid night people are going to get shafted.
Each item that drops has a minimum bid of: (Tier #) * 10 (dkp/tier) * 10 (multiplier so that huge sums of dkp don't build up over time, see below),
Tier 1 item = 100 dkp
Tier 7 item = 700 dkp
This is calculated by:
18 (people) / 2 (loots/mob) = 9, round out to 10 for simplicity.
Figuring archaic/relics/ancients + chance of random 3rd drop - rots should roughly = 2 loots/mob overall.
If you figure all that out, if your guild is doing 3 named/raid, you will "earn" an upgrade every 3 raids (3 dkp payouts * 3 nights = 9 payouts. At tier 1, thats 90 dkp, almost enough to get you your upgrade.) You would need less then that if you help backfarm.
Over the long term, I think 3 raid nights per upgrade should roughly be average for an upgrade.
Or another way of looking at it is 18 people per mob, the guild is going up 180 dkp (for tier 1) for 2 loots. That gives about 20 dkp for slack needed to be made up by raiding offnights/backfarming. So the guild is going to roughly break even per mob if only 1 person is bidding. If more people are bidding, then there is going to be a negative balance of DKP for that fight. This again is made up due to how common rots are during backfarming. So its a slight drain or even parity for overall guild dkp every fight. Large amounts of DKP won't be in a person's dkp bank unless they are ringers.
Speaking of ringers... Since ringers help the guild progress much more quickly due to not needing gear and allowing fights to go smoother, they deserve the full dkp they get, so they get the best chance at getting gear that IS an upgrade for them. However, to prevent them hogging ALL the loot that is dropped, I would cap them at 80 * guild's current tier #. This gives them 8 upgrades when they feel like it, or a little bit less if people are bidding strongly.
A few extra rules:
No negative DKP. No loaning DKP. If you transfer to a new character, your DKP is thrown out and for the next 2 weeks worth of raiding, you receive only half DKP, unless your class transfer is by request from officers. Officers may grant a bonus for transfering to a new class if they deem it necessary.
Main warrior gets .1 dkp/fight. However, when they bid, their bid is automatically free minimum bid for an item (tier 7 = 700 dkp). If the warrior gets it at that 700, he does not go back any DKP. If he bids 730 dkp, he goes back 30. They can then choose to bid up normally, with their severely lessened pool. This prevents the warrior automatically getting anything that is even a minor upgrade for tank loot. Yes, +5 hp is nice, but if its a +20 hp upgrade to pally/sk, they should have a reasonable chance to outbid the warrior. This gives a nice preference to the warrior, but allows the SK/Pally to have a say in the loot as well.
Prison/thaz gems, valor quests items and other "collectable" items are minimum 10 dkp, and can be bid on normally.
Relics/Archaic frags: This is rough. I would mark the most "active" of the most needed class buffs. This most active person gets all relics until they get their buff/best spell(s).
For relics, I think the most active Cleric gets all relics until he gets raego. Then shammy until rfocus, eot, eotw. Then enchanter -> jb. Then druid -> won. They pay the minimum amount for the relic(s) they used up upon getting the last of their major spell(s). This is the only time someone can go negative DKP. Those people then may not bid on relics until the average relics/toon across the guild is 2. This gets the needed buffs out there asap, then allowing the other toons to get access to relics as quickly as possible.
Silent bidding - Everyone interested in bidding will /t the raid leader. The raid leader will announce the current bid. If no new bids are received within a minute, highest person wins the bid. This should help lessen the drama involved, in the case of people bidding others up, etc.
People that knowingly bid and already have that piece or something better receive a -50 * tier # hit to their dkp.
People that do something decidedly stupid (harass GMs, get jailed, go AFK just before a fight and not tell anybody) gets a -dkp decided by the officer(s).
It would be nice to have a /cm system that records dkp for you, but this would not be hard to make a log watcher program that does it for you.
Feel free to point out any problems you see with this system.
booster
Dalayan Master
ive found dkp with privatized auction-style bidding works best.
i.e player 1 and player 2 want an item, they both send a whisper to the person taking bids. they dont announce how much they bid. the auctioneer calls for final bids and the person with the highest bid wins for the 2nd highest bid+1.
you can bid more than once, the latest bid is used.
i.e player 1 and player 2 want an item, they both send a whisper to the person taking bids. they dont announce how much they bid. the auctioneer calls for final bids and the person with the highest bid wins for the 2nd highest bid+1.
you can bid more than once, the latest bid is used.
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
Fusion did merit and TU does now as well. People (even on loot council!) are fallible, but not nearly as fallible as everyone is greedy.
Thade
DINOSAUR THADE
Sig'd for truth
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
I feel post happy tonight, so I'll comment some...
This would atleast need some finetuning.
4x DKP on keying mobs might or might not be a good idea: usually they drop more then 1 key, and you rarely need every person in the raid keyed. And this gets stupid once everyone has said key.
4x DKP on first mob from a new tier is eh as well. Tiers are no exact science, and since its a 1st kill, it allready gives double DKP anyways.
An example: raid downs a tier5 target. The new recruit now has 50 DKP. loot happens to be stuff noone but the new recruit wants. So what happens now? The recruit does not have the 500 DKP per item he would have to pay. Do the items rot now? Does the recruit get them for full price, putting him to a total of -950 DKP? Good luck on getting out of that hole again.
And now imagine that happens on several mobs in a row. (For lols, do the math with these raids as backfarming, i.e. only 40% of DKP earned)
Sounds to me like an excelent way to make geared people only show up ift they want loot once they hit max DKP, and thus slowing down progress by a lot.
If an item is better then what you have or not is subjective to some degree, but most people have an understanding on what and what not is an upgrade.
DKP penaltys should be reserved for awkwardly stupid stuff, if they are there at all.
In theory a good approache, but we all know that mobs in the same tier can be of quite different difficulties (Ferdolen the Farhag Elder vs. Folerit Redsun, anyone?).
This would atleast need some finetuning.
True, but I personally dislike the idea of Random_Member_03 logging in for one single raid after x months of MIA and sniping loot over a regular raider who happens to be at low DKP for whatever reason.
Double DKP on 1st kill is a good idea for the mentioned reason.
4x DKP on keying mobs might or might not be a good idea: usually they drop more then 1 key, and you rarely need every person in the raid keyed. And this gets stupid once everyone has said key.
4x DKP on first mob from a new tier is eh as well. Tiers are no exact science, and since its a 1st kill, it allready gives double DKP anyways.
Backfarming targets are likely to have low DKP values anyways, so people who don't feel like it are not missing out on many DKP anyways. Reducing this low DKP by a significant ammount will only discouragre people from necessary backfarming.
Main problem with this is, that paired with the "no -DKP" you suggest later on, new recruits will run into MAJOR issuse to bid even on rots.
An example: raid downs a tier5 target. The new recruit now has 50 DKP. loot happens to be stuff noone but the new recruit wants. So what happens now? The recruit does not have the 500 DKP per item he would have to pay. Do the items rot now? Does the recruit get them for full price, putting him to a total of -950 DKP? Good luck on getting out of that hole again.
And now imagine that happens on several mobs in a row. (For lols, do the math with these raids as backfarming, i.e. only 40% of DKP earned)
3 nights per upgrade? *bursts into maniac laugther*
Wait... negative DKP balance per encounter, but no -DKP? (I support no -DKP btw!)
Wait, so you say people who stockpiled DKP, went MIA and return for a raid should be able to burn them all, while people who can not possibly get an upgrade for a long time cause they are allready geared should be limited in the ammount of DKP they can earn?
Sounds to me like an excelent way to make geared people only show up ift they want loot once they hit max DKP, and thus slowing down progress by a lot.
This one I wholeheartly agree upon.
Iffy. I personally favour the maintank not to be part of DKP system to start with, and if an item is a major upgrade to him, he gets it, no questions asked. And yes, this is not DKP and requires the guild to act reasonable.
It's my belief that quest items should not be DKP, simply cause there are quift diffrent numbers of people interested in them. Example thaz gems: most raids have several clerics but just one warrior. So clerics would have to fight over their gems, while the warrior gets his "for free". As much as I like DKP, this is a thing where DKP isn't the optimal solution.
Relics are rough indeed. And I wouldn't make them DKP at all, they should be distributed in a way that yields greatest benefit for the guild. And I'm fully aware that this can be a reason for some MAJOR guild drama.
Oh god, tell hell! But yes, I like the idea of lessened drama that comes from this.
People who allready have that piece are just stupid and will notice it when they try looting, bids might have to be redone then.
If an item is better then what you have or not is subjective to some degree, but most people have an understanding on what and what not is an upgrade.
DKP penaltys should be reserved for awkwardly stupid stuff, if they are there at all.
This are good examples for stuff that might give -DKP.
Such a tool allready exists. You just have to turn your logs on.
Done.
Oh god, advanced tell hell plus some math. What I dislike with this suggestion is that the regular raid member can not get a feeling for how dire his fellow guildies want the loot in question.
Yes, greed is allways there. But the problem isn't the greed per se. The problem arises when the loot council gets corrupted by greed (or whatever else reason). Thats is one of the major benefits of DKP: there is no room for corruption to occure.
Cyzaine
Staff Emeritus
I think everything you wrote shows another issue I dislike with DKP: Over time it becomes riddled with exceptions and special cases. For example 2 boxing is very much a common reality on SoD. Are they separate characters? What if someone wants to bring an alt? What if someone has to drop to bring, say, another chanter for a particular fight, do they not get DKP now. Is there standby DKP? What about standby abuse? What about these new tomes the dev's are harping on about, how are we going to treat them? If we invite a guest do they get DKP? Will they be less likely to help if they have no chance at loot?
In many systems I've dealt with the answers to all these and more have been 'Well we'll deal with it as it comes up on a case by case basis'. Seems it would have been simpler to just guild up with people yiou trust, or grow to trust.
My 'Perfect' loot system in a 'perfect' guild goes something like this (and yes this is NOT at all feasible, I'm speaking purely in a hypothetical world). We start with a loot council. Every loot decsion is thrown to the council and everyone votes. Winner takes loot. Nice and simple.
Now the council has to be trustworthy, so it needs tranparency. But there are alot of good reasons that the decision process shouldn't be totally visible. To compromise this, the council is made up of 3 officers, and 2 regular members and the guild leader. Guild leader gets no vote, only veto power. The 2 regular members are temporary officers, and every guild member rotates in at regular invtervals, about a week or two per rotation. This keeps everyone in the loop, and helps make everyone aware of the pressures of being an officer, something many people don't realize.
To make the system truly perfect, certain bots are needed. This is the part where it goes into pure theory. The main tank and at least one main healer are permanent bots, and get every upgrade they need. These characters belong to NO one, and are rotated characters, and everyone needs to play them at some point or another. These characters are protected via something like the 'guest password' system we talked about way back when, and again the guild leader is considered responsible for them. Everyone learns how to MT and Heal. This should in theory cut back on burn out.
I suppose that really explains my deal with loot council... its not about the distribution, and far more about the guild as a whole. I'd imagine a guild that used my above described method, if they could deal with it, would progress execptionally fast. Like anything else though, corruption at the very top would render even the most fool proof plan worthless.