Smoothing Caster DPS

Should we abandon the new resist system?

  • Yes, bring back the old all-or-nothing resists.

    Votes: 24 28.2%
  • No, keep the damage scaling.

    Votes: 61 71.8%

  • Total voters
    85
This idea involves a major overhaul of the spell system with numerous obvious (monks, blinds, damage debuffs) and who knows how many yet unknown problems. The best case scenario for implementation looks like a patchwork system that would be a massive time sink and require patches upon patches as new issues are discovered with spells and encounters.

I think maybe you overestimate how complicated this would be. I've already coded the main bit for testing (swapping out 1 function for a slightly modified version of that function is pretty easy) and since it's designed to approximate the same average damage per mana as the current system, I don't think many adjustments would be necessary, at least on the player against NPC side. I'm also not sure how many issues it could bring up (something gets mitigated more than we'd like, something gets mitigated less than we'd like, is there anything left? edit: I thought of one in the form of Leechstorm and Soulspike, since those are faux lifetaps that use a recourse heal that's always fully effective unless you fully resist. Can just make an exception for that one, or make a PBAE Tap target type that really should exist. Pretty atypical type of thing, but another one out of the way before we even start!). Lots of high end encounters, at least, have resist adjusts so high (if not outright unresistable) that it would hardly make a difference. Some lower end fights might get a bit easier from a healing perspective, but I somewhat doubt how much: if you're fully resisting an AE often enough to make a significant difference then you've probably trivialized it already; if not, the difference will be minimal.

Monks and damage debuffs might be problems but keeping them using the current system is a really easy solution. I'd only need to add one little check in one line of code for to do that for FD'd Monks; Slaariel's solution might be a bit more complicated, but not much. Damaging debuffs are already there in my test code.

To some extent every change inevitably requires some amount of fixes, usually for lapses of logic. That in itself isn't much argument against doing something.

What would we gain? Well, the lower levels would be nicer for casters. The effects of CHA and Specialize Focus/Mind and Divination mods and resist debuffs would be much much easier to see and to weigh and thus more fun (if I may say so). It's easy to take slowly accumulating, difficult to "feel" effects for granted. No one wants to do the kind of involved parsing it would take just to see how much 20 CHA helps you, for example. By the same token resist adjusts on spells become more significant and something that can be considered directly as part of the spell's damage rather than something that's kind of mysterious even from a Dev's perspective. Might even get us into a position where we can argue that spell x should have resist adjust y for a reason rather than just slapping -200 on this and -10 on that without much thought. I wouldn't mind seeing threads arguing Poison and Disease DoTs should have better resist debuffs in that situation probably.

Also makes resists more valuable in high end raids and, again, their value becomes easier to judge. Even a small amount of mitigation could be valuable in some situations, whereas a 3% chance to fully resist something may never even come up in a fight, for example.

Phasing out MotS and Dampening Curse would probably be a bigger, more balance-requiring change than any of this system itself on the NPC against player side. But I'd still like to consider it since those have been an annoyance for a long time, and this seems like a good excuse.

And as someone (probably Solo) has said: resists kind of suck. Wasted mana, wasted time. In the new system you'll be able to easily judge whether an iffy spell is worth casting on this boss in clear terms rather than taking a gamble and giving up when you've wasted your mana just to be resisted 3 times and never trying it on that boss again, even though you really just had an unlikely streak of bad luck. And so on.

Tell me if I'm wrong about Necros being worried about Wizards horning in on their territory because all in all I thought it'd be pretty obvious the big resist adjusts on some of Necro's biggest damage spells would preserve a pretty big advantage in the new system. Otherwise it's kind of baffling to hear such immediate dismissal from two Necros with no specific argument against the idea itself yet forthcoming.
 
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Your Archaic Claws of the Chill does 140 damage to blah
Your Caress of Sivyana does 108 damage to blah
Your Scitterpox does 65 damage to blah

Kind of late but I'd like to go back an emphasize this: in order to see numbers like this as a super high tier necro from these spells, it would have to be the case that you currently have to cast each of them some 6 or 7 times in a row on average before they land once, for each spell, every time. Is that typical? If it is typical I'm actually pretty confident that the new system would be an improvement even with the low numbers, as much less ticking time would be lost to standing around casting the same thing over and over.
 
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I am going to be self centered and whiny for just a bit... and go:

First, creating an exception for one awful AA that's existence taunts necros in numerous ways ("bet you wish you had actual aoe spells like this", "bet you wish my cd wasn't forever", "bet you wish you had those 5 points back", "bet you wish I would be replaced with a good AA") makes me the opposite of happy. Nothing about the mechanic bothers me or anything, just that my most hated AA and personal lost cause just received more attention in how to make it work (once every 72 minutes!) than any pleas to change, destroy, mutilate it.

Second, can you imagine what a pain-in-the-ass this change would be for necros? Rolling multiple dots with multiple resists types and watching for varying damage rates for each would be a chore to do in logs, let alone ON THE FLY. Having scitterpox (it's always scitterpox) resisted a few times lets me know to drop it and mem something else- done, finito, moving on now! Something about consulting my dot chart, doing 5-6 calculations at the speed of spam, and hoping nothing happens to my pet, me, or the raid while this happens sounds just terrible.

Third, resists do suck. They suck more for some classes than others. Specifically, resists suck for a class who can effectively dps by mashing 1-2 buttons if those buttons stop working a lot more than for a class that weaves many buttons and just changes the rotation if one stops working. Isn't the reason it sucks kind of the reason it should suck though? [[[The inconvenience cost of a complex rotation has the side benefit of versatility, and the convenience benefit of simpler rotations comes at the cost of versatility... does that make any sense?? I'm pretty tired and can't seem to get this idea out right]]]

Fourth, second and third up there deal with class strengths and weaknesses. Being king shit of primals mountain kind of makes it an all or nothing deal by risk/reward default. I hate to keep singling out wizards but they would be the winners in this change more than anyone and it seems like they get a fair amount of wins already.

My kneejerk reaction is rooted in a balance problem that has been touched on in the "no class should be balanced around FC" thread concerning efficiency. Without crapping up this thread too much the basic point (which I'll make in another thread full of wonderful napkin maths if you want) is that nukes are already damn close if not surpassing dots in efficiency which kind of defeats the whole point of dots. This 'smoothing' change sans some other significant changes would most likely remove any doubt about the efficiency balance.
 
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You know what? You're right. There's no way in hell players should be able to make educated choices or be provided with more accurate information. Forget I said anything.

As far as Leechstorm: I was far more concerned about Soulspike.
 
donfolstar3 - Solution: Ask your bard what the resists are.

Remember this mob/zone has this resist type. Same as it has always been.

This is a big win for casters, especially mages where they are limited to 2 resist types, and if that zone is awful for them, they can at least do SOMETHING.
 
If getting an intuitive feeling of how much damage a dot should do to be worth it is not possible, then I'm pretty sure getting info from another player is out of the question. Can you imagine doing that ON THE FLY? Before every mob? And REMEMBERING IT? What are you smoking?
 
From a mage perspective I really like this, with the super long casting times resists can be just terrible. Also, only having 2 viable element types to nuke with I would love getting parials instead of full out resists.
 
From a mage perspective I really like this, with the super long casting times resists can be just terrible. Also, only having 2 viable element types to nuke with I would love getting parials instead of full out resists.

This is obviously a Necro vs Wizard change so GTFO.
 
This is a great change for EVERYONE.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with wizards or necros.

Dps for all classes will remain essentially unchanged.

If necro archaic is being reduced to 20%, wizard archaic will be reduced to 5%.

It should not be difficult to look at your skitterpox damage number and see that it is doing 30% of normal damage and decide it is not worth it, rather than having to cast it 3 times and get 3 resists in order to make the same conclusion.

This change really has nothing to do with wizards. Primal blasts will ALWAYS be smaller after this change because all base nukes will be getting reduced by some % instead of having that same % change to be resisted.

Sometimes I feel like people dislike ideas simply because I agree with them. Ignore me. Examine this idea for its own merits. It would be an amazing benefit to the game and ALL caster classes.
 
Third, resists do suck. They suck more for some classes than others. Specifically, resists suck for a class who can effectively dps by mashing 1-2 buttons if those buttons stop working a lot more than for a class that weaves many buttons and just changes the rotation if one stops working. Isn't the reason it sucks kind of the reason it should suck though? [[[The inconvenience cost of a complex rotation has the side benefit of versatility, and the convenience benefit of simpler rotations comes at the cost of versatility... does that make any sense?? I'm pretty tired and can't seem to get this idea out right]]]

No. There is no logical argument in here. If wizards get resisted too much we switch to another spelltype.

This change really does not change any dps rates. If a wizard would get resisted 5% of a time, instead they do 5% less damage. If a necro would get resisted 1% of the time, instead they do 1% less damage.

The only remotely viable argument I could see made is that poison/disease sometimes get resisted more, and only necros have to deal with those... but still if they are getting resisted TOO much a necro will just stop casting them. This change will remove the instance of a mob that only resisted poison 20% of the time, but you have bad luck and get resisted 4 times in a row, fucking over your dps for that time.

Additionally Zaela specifically said that resist adjusts for these spells could be looked at and improved.

This change will help ALL casters equally. There is no way it benefits wizards over necros, and as such there is no real argument for that. Additionally, your class will likely get a buff out of the deal. PLEASE dont use this as another place to whine about lichstorm and necro vs wizard, because its not the right place and you are hampering a change that helps EVERYONE.
 
Awesome idea. I don't do t13 encounters, but do have about 13 alts, and the growing pains associated with lack of charisma makes going through those grinds that much more hellish. This will make a greater number of people of happy then sad.
 
This would be a pretty cool change, for every class. Especially if boss AOEs, debuffs and FD splitting are considered from the start.
 
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This is a really cool idea and would alleviate a ton of problems with how resists operate etc etc etc also how on earth would this be a nerf for necros when they a) have some of the best base resist mods b) I don't even think scaling per tick would be possible, and c) isn't getting slightly lowballed on numbers in one rotation better than not even being able to land the spell?

Anyways I think this would be an amazing answer to the corner resist mods on npc spells have been forced into.
 
Now from the perspective of players taking damage:

i think this is an good idea, resists were basically useless and this makes it a relevant stat again. It isn't removing spell damage reduction spell/songs but transferring that ability over to individual players.


Would the spell damage reduction effect scale linearly with resists, or will there be diminishing returns for resist levels?

What will happen with missing relic mots?
 
at first when i saw this i was like :whoa:
because im a monk

and then when i read some of the ideas posted on how to not making pulling miserable i was like :tinfoil:
because i was concerned!

but now with all of the further detail gone into explain how it benefits every class including monks im like :dance:


yeah ok you can do this zaela
 
Now from the perspective of players taking damage:

i think this is an good idea, resists were basically useless and this makes it a relevant stat again. It isn't removing spell damage reduction spell/songs but transferring that ability over to individual players.


Would the spell damage reduction effect scale linearly with resists, or will there be diminishing returns for resist levels?

What will happen with missing relic mots?

I think the cool thing about player resists is that resists always help and are never trivial.

There would be dimishing returns if you have 500MR vs an AE with no resist adjust, but then the next fight has an AE with -400MR resist adjust, and suddenly gaining 50 more resist will make a huge difference.

It would also be cool to replace mots with something new for bards, and I think it can actually be something useful/powerful because MOTS was a huge part of what made bards so powerful and almost required for some content.
 
It would also be cool to replace mots with something new for bards, and I think it can actually be something useful/powerful because MOTS was a huge part of what made bards so powerful and almost required for some content.
Yeah and not to jump the gun and derail here but if PoT4 was knocked down a bit more so it doesn't just fall into the role MoTS once inhabited it could free up a lot of room for some advancements in the class.

On that note if some overall revision happened to resists on gear in general so that rolling at 500 to resists later on involved more than just sporting normal gear while getting some buffs that would probably be a good change in the long run and actually allow you to make the incremental reduction of damage more powerful instead of having to make the assumption that players will be rolling with 500 to whatever with minimal sacrifice past tier X therefore damage would need to be artificially inflated to offset this (kind of recreating the same problem).
 
The issue with making overall resists not increase through the tiers, is that resist gear sets get that much more powerful and "required". Really an issue for another thread though.
 
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