Smoothing Caster DPS

Should we abandon the new resist system?

  • Yes, bring back the old all-or-nothing resists.

    Votes: 24 28.2%
  • No, keep the damage scaling.

    Votes: 61 71.8%

  • Total voters
    85
Silosobi I'm not going to defend it. I can't believe you are even trying to argue it with me, it's extremely sad that the wiz with the best gear on the server doesn't even understand something so basic. I also can't believe that I'm the only one here who even cares to stand up for something like this. It's just not even worth me having the hassle of fighting an up hill battle against the entire population of this game who apparently is so clueless these days.

When I started playing Winter's Roar, the best chanter was Chameleon, the best warrior was probably Breaker or someone, etc.. These were people who knew the game inside out. Suggest a change like this to people like that, and they would have known right away that it was just dumbing down, as would the majority of the players who were playing not because it was free, but because it provided an experience similar to the original EQ which itself got 'streamlined' and butchered by SOE. But obviously this game has a completely different audience these days, so it's not even worth me trying to explain why this is a bad idea.

Wiz used to follow me around, acting friendly and welcoming, asking the opinion of me and my guild, showing me gear he was proud of, like the "Sword of Never Forget" etc. but he is gone now, as are the fun newbie zones we all used to enjoy hunting in. I don't like a lot of the changes but I still had fun, but the game is going further and further away from being an EQ Emu like it was originally. When it becomes so 'convenient' that I can get a similar experience in other games, (and that's why I haven't played SoD for several months), then maybe it's just time for me to move on.
 
The game has evolved over time, you're talking about the opinion of people playing a game that was drastically different in form to what it is now. You seem to forget that the scope of the game has increased massively since those times and the scaling of all things along with it, back in those days resists had not been forced into a corner from being built on a poor foundation (a foundation borrowed from live and put in place by Wiz, but I'm sure he never imagined the server would last so long) that necessitated their eventual trivialization if you still wanted to represent some kind of stat progression related to them. Take my advice as a person that also occasionally comes up with retarded ideas: when the vast amount of people disagree with you, it may just be that you are in fact the one that is clueless or that you are approaching a situation with an outdated understanding of just how things are currently.
 
wow.. ok, i guess. I mean i didn't log in for a week or so maybe two now since the LP explosion and stayed away from the forums altogether so i guess i never got to notice it. If i was tossing up whether to play again or not this is certainly the nail in the coffin.

Anyone want a formerly T11 Necro now somewhere probably around T6/7? Fomelo Drezin and PM me if interested.

PM Sent
 
Silosobi I'm not going to defend it. I can't believe you are even trying to argue it with me, it's extremely sad that the wiz with the best gear on the server doesn't even understand something so basic. I also can't believe that I'm the only one here who even cares to stand up for something like this. It's just not even worth me having the hassle of fighting an up hill battle against the entire population of this game who apparently is so clueless these days.

When I started playing Winter's Roar, the best chanter was Chameleon, the best warrior was probably Breaker or someone, etc.. These were people who knew the game inside out. Suggest a change like this to people like that, and they would have known right away that it was just dumbing down, as would the majority of the players who were playing not because it was free, but because it provided an experience similar to the original EQ which itself got 'streamlined' and butchered by SOE. But obviously this game has a completely different audience these days, so it's not even worth me trying to explain why this is a bad idea.

Wiz used to follow me around, acting friendly and welcoming, asking the opinion of me and my guild, showing me gear he was proud of, like the "Sword of Never Forget" etc. but he is gone now, as are the fun newbie zones we all used to enjoy hunting in. I don't like a lot of the changes but I still had fun, but the game is going further and further away from being an EQ Emu like it was originally. When it becomes so 'convenient' that I can get a similar experience in other games, (and that's why I haven't played SoD for several months), then maybe it's just time for me to move on.

Just want to say a few things. This thread came about to ask for opinions, and most people who do play this game seemed to be in favor of it. Maybe these people you listed who haven't played in years or months wouldn't have liked it, but I guess my only question is: why should we be making the game for the people who don't play it rather than the people who do? Is it not really really silly to say that all the people who play the game are just wrong to like it how it is? Is dying because you ran out of mana due to a random dice roll really more fun? I don't think it's really a challenge if you couldn't have done anything better, and random resists are kind of all about that.

tl;dr it's fine if you pride yourself on being an old school EQ purist/elitist/whatever, but is there any reason we should be catering to you over everyone else? I'm pretty sure there is at least one server that's more live-like and brutal than Wiz's thing ever was, why not play there instead if that's all you play for?


Also: I'm not sure what you mean about fun newb zones not existing any more? The only ones we've lost are the ones Wiz himself got rid of when he took out the Lands of Magic.
 
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Silosobi I'm not going to defend it. I can't believe you are even trying to argue it with me, it's extremely sad that the wiz with the best gear on the server doesn't even understand something so basic.

Yeah, I became the best wizard on the server, defeating all the hardest 6 man and raids in the game by my poor understanding of basic game mechanics.

/sarcasm off

Your example is bad because resists can make fights harder or easier, the change just makes them less random. The assumption that not knowing whether a given nuke will kill a mob adds any difficulty to a fight just suggests to me that you are a poor player, because my decision on what mob i nuke next and targeting that mob and anything else I need to do takes less time than my spellgem cooldown.

Additionally, most players arent a soloing fresh 65 wizard, and as such calculating if a mob will die from your nuke just isnt a thing. This change makes dps more steady and less random, thus we are less likely to win or lose a fight based on luck, and instead can rely more on skill.

The purist "old EQ mechanics represent a game requiring skill and everything else is for WoW nubs" is just silly and wrong. Lots of changes away from old EQ make the server way better. If you want to repeat that old EQ feel, play p99.
 
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As a replacement, I liked Solosolkis suggestion:

Seeing the changes in action I'm not sure how much I love the idea anymore. Much of the time resists are all or none, especially for endgame content. Also, most of the endgame fights use unresistible AEs. I think the core of the idea is right, but maybe changing the functionality a bit...

Elemental Intuition: This tome reduces the effect of offensive magic on the wizard and allows them to focus on specific element types to do additional damage.

Basically, the tome adds 2% spell mitigation per rank, and whenever a nuke is cast, the wizard will do .5%/rank more damage with that element type for 30 seconds. The debuff stacks. It would be almost the opposite of the necro version, probably with a bit less damage mod in exchange for the spell mitigation. If I'm not concussing, I can land 5 MCs in 30 seconds. In any raid setting I'm using intensify as one of those spells, so with 4 ranks done I could hover around ~8% bonus cold. Accounting for a normal amount of concussion, it would be 4-6%.

Let me know what you think Nwaij/other wizards. I like this idea because it would add some strategy to our spell rotation. Instead of just mc - concuss - mc - concucc - mc - etc, maybe it would make sense to stack massive negative agro at the start and then chain mc to stack the cold damage a bit higher.

I've been pushing for spell mitigation in a tome for wizards forever just because we have almost no raid survivability bonuses like other classes do (mage is probably next worst off).
 
Having some trouble with Fear of Death and Crushing Despair spells on a few mobs after the change. Both spells had fear/blind part associated with them. Fear of Death is always doing a bit of damage and fearing everyone, even Fearless knghts. We were never able to resist Crushing Despair and were blinded every time but the the damage was very low, like 500 instead of 3000.
 
when the vast amount of people disagree with you, it may just be that you are in fact the one that is clueless or that you are approaching a situation with an outdated understanding of just how things are currently.

Are you trying to tell me that I am "clueless" for defending the concept of resists? A concept created by a professional team of designers, based on D&D rules which have been the source of inspiration since forever. And how is my understanding outdated? If the modern way of doing things is always the best, then why do you even play this 13 year old game? Can't you afford the 5 bucks for WoW? Because that is as streamlined as it gets, no resists, no fizzles, no nothin really. In fact you can engage auto attack and then go AFK and come back 30 seconds later to your character on full health. He will have even looted the mob for you.

why should we be making the game for the people who don't play it rather than the people who do?

- Maybe they wouldn't have quit if it stuck closer to the original design that attracted them in the first place?

- Some of these people (like me) do still play, but the game gets less and less attractive to play as the years go by, and I'm not talking about graphics.

- There are a lot of people like the early players still out there, still looking for a good old school type game to play, and they still might not have ever found this game. When you butcher mechanics on a whim, you alienate one type of gamer for another.

- If you want to change the game so far from what it was originally, why not just emulate a different game? WoW is far easier to emulate, it's far more modern, and it's far closer to the destination you seem to be trying to reach than EQ ever was. I found a WoW emulator in the last few days which has several servers, each with over 2000 people. You wouldn't have to worry about your one dev working away on project 3.0, when you could just modify a game which already has all those features built in. You would have no more concerns with resists and no more posts about how it's difficult to land a LOH, because the game already practically plays itself.

Is dying because you ran out of mana due to a random dice roll really more fun? I don't think it's really a challenge if you couldn't have done anything better, and random resists are kind of all about that.

That rarely ever happens, and if you do die from a string of resists it's either because you need to improve something about your gear, or because you were just very unlucky. But if you remove that, then how are we ever going to die in this game? Again you are just making it more like WoW where you can hardly ever die unless you purposely jump off a cliff or something, and even then, it doesn't matter anyway because they make you both invisible and invincible, so you can run straight back to where you died with ease and carry on with almost no penalty at all.

There is hardly any way to die anymore in SoD, remove this and it's yet one more removed. All you will have achieved is a game that's all about everyone going from 1-65 in a few weeks, with only one or two deaths, and absolute minimal resistance, and then they all cluster together as level 65 noobs, guild hopping their way through the raid content.

It's no longer about the journey, it's about the destination, so why even bother with the journey? Why not just accept donations and boost everyone to 65. You take a moral stance against the Pay2Win model that most other emu servers go with, and meanwhile you hack away the challenge from the game until it's just one big ez-mode theme park ride.

tl;dr it's fine if you pride yourself on being an old school EQ purist/elitist/whatever, but is there any reason we should be catering to you over everyone else? I'm pretty sure there is at least one server that's more live-like and brutal than Wiz's thing ever was, why not play there instead if that's all you play for?

Why cater to me? Because isn't that the whole point of this game? Or I suppose, wasn't that the whole point of this game? I've put more than 4 years solid of time in to this game, been in and outlived the biggest and best guilds, and brought countless players to it, most of us ex-EQ fans who had given up on SOE's moronic tinkering, but found a new game where it lived on in spirit. So me and this game have had a perfectly long and healthy relationship.

So now I'm faced with more tinkering but like I said, I am not going to defend my position alone. It would be different if there was a real community here, and if they actually cared about stuff, even little things like gameplay, but that isn't the case. So there's no point asking me to fight for my place here or why you should care about me, you are going to have to figure that out yourself - as well as whether you should remove gameplay mechanics some of us have been enjoying for 13 years.


Yeah, I became the best wizard on the server, defeating all the hardest 6 man and raids in the game by my poor understanding of basic game mechanics.

/sarcasm off
I never called you the best because clearly you aren't. And everyone with a brain knows that getting the best gear is little more than spending massive amounts of time in game, and joining the right guild. Especially as a wizard.

Your example is bad because resists can make fights harder or easier, the change just makes them less random. The assumption that not knowing whether a given nuke will kill a mob adds any difficulty to a fight just suggests to me that you are a poor player, because my decision on what mob i nuke next and targeting that mob and anything else I need to do takes less time than my spellgem cooldown.
Ahh yes, I was forgetting all those times my spells were resisted and that made the fight easier. /sarcasm off.

Your assumption is predictably wrong. What you don't underestand is that good players sometimes make decisions in real time. We don't just hit "assist" and then spam our routine. And that is exactly what worries me about this game's direction. It's less about mid level players with weak gear, running a dangerous dungeon crawl, in shaky old EQ style with constant link dead healers and mobs flooding through the walls and people falling through invisible floors they never knew existed. Now it's all about catering to idiots sat in a group of 18 being told exactly what to do, where to go, and where to stand, while Lleoc or someone runs around pulling all the mobs to you in nice easy bite size pieces and someone broadcasts macros shouting instructions at the drooling automatons at the back.

Additionally, most players arent a soloing fresh 65 wizard, and as such calculating if a mob will die from your nuke just isnt a thing.

And thus my love for this game dies a bit more. But you should know, there USED to be far better players before you who have been through this game and since moved on, and there will probably be more after you. They played the game to actually play the game, but that entire mentality has almost entirely died out now. It is now filled with people who right from the start, start broadcasting, "Where is the best place for a level x". They rush to 65 as fast as possible, load up on overpowered raid gear, and then (like you), spend the rest of their lives in blissful ignorance, never needing to really think about anything or play on the edge of their seat. Just strutting around from raid to raid or hand picked groups of similarly overpowered people, where nothing actually matters. When all your healers and casters have over 9000 mana and 20ft and all your tanks have a million AC and hitpoints, then yeah, I can see why 'calculating' stuff aint nothin but a thing, dawg.
 
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With the D&D ref it has become apparent we are dealing with an actual living/breathing grognard.
 
I never called you the best because clearly you aren't. And everyone with a brain knows that getting the best gear is little more than spending massive amounts of time in game, and joining the right guild. Especially as a wizard.

How are you arguing about skill in a game where everyone knows all you have to do is put in time and be in a guild? Believe it or not, some encounters in this game actually require you be a competent player. In the end though, you really have no idea who I am. You assuming I am bad because I disagree with you says something about you though.

Ahh yes, I was forgetting all those times my spells were resisted and that made the fight easier. /sarcasm off.

Did you read/comprehend the OP? The new system does not remove resists, it makes the resist differential cause spells to consistently less damage, rather than randomly all or none. Its not hard to imagine an example where you get lucky and no resists, thus killing a mob more easily than you would with the new system.

Your assumption is predictably wrong. What you don't underestand is that good players sometimes make decisions in real time. We don't just hit "assist" and then spam our routine. And that is exactly what worries me about this game's direction. It's less about mid level players with weak gear, running a dangerous dungeon crawl, in shaky old EQ style with constant link dead healers and mobs flooding through the walls and people falling through invisible floors they never knew existed. Now it's all about catering to idiots sat in a group of 18 being told exactly what to do, where to go, and where to stand, while Lleoc or someone runs around pulling all the mobs to you in nice easy bite size pieces and someone broadcasts macros shouting instructions at the drooling automatons at the back.

Maybe look at what you quoted from me where I talk about making decisions in real time. You make it pretty obvious that you have no clue what the highend game looks like, because your assumptions about how the game is are entirely wrong.

And thus my love for this game dies a bit more. But you should know, there USED to be far better players before you who have been through this game and since moved on, and there will probably be more after you. They played the game to actually play the game, but that entire mentality has almost entirely died out now. It is now filled with people who right from the start, start broadcasting, "Where is the best place for a level x". They rush to 65 as fast as possible, load up on overpowered raid gear, and then (like you), spend the rest of their lives in blissful ignorance, never needing to really think about anything or play on the edge of their seat. Just strutting around from raid to raid or hand picked groups of similarly overpowered people, where nothing actually matters. When all your healers and casters have over 9000 mana and 20ft and all your tanks have a million AC and hitpoints, then yeah, I can see why 'calculating' stuff aint nothin but a thing, dawg.

Lets hear what your characters are that have put "4 sold years into this game" and seen the highend? Because I'm just not buying that you are anything but a jaded ignorant nub that thinks any change is bad. Your entire argument is based around the claim that this change makes things easier, yet you have failed to provide a single example of how it makes things easier other than the apparent difficulty you have in targeting mobs...
 
Better players than you will ever be were saving vs wands before you were born
 
How are you arguing about skill in a game where everyone knows all you have to do is put in time and be in a guild?

I said that is all you have to do to get the best gear in the game, because you can ride along on the coat tails of your guild. The reason you have so much trouble understanding who/why/when this game can involve skill, is because like I said in my previous post, I doubt you have barely even played this game. I bet you did virtually nothing between 1 and 65 and getting in a big guild which was your free ticket to leet gear and from then onwards you are basically playing a different version of this game with cheat codes enabled.

Believe it or not, some encounters in this game actually require you be a competent player. In the end though, you really have no idea who I am. You assuming I am bad because I disagree with you says something about you though.
Oh yes you have to be competent at remaining in one spot and clicking your few hotkeys in sequence. And occasionally in an encounter like The Generals or something, you might get blasted backwards and have to press W for a moment to return to that spot. Maybe I underestimate you, maybe you are even able to actually kite! But still, I am assuming you are bad purely because of the stupid things you have said in this thread in response to me.

Did you read/comprehend the OP? The new system does not remove resists, it makes the resist differential cause spells to consistently less damage, rather than randomly all or none.
Unless some spells will only do about 2% of their usual damage, then it's as good as removed. And even if that was the case, there would be little point in it anyway.

Maybe look at what you quoted from me where I talk about making decisions in real time. You make it pretty obvious that you have no clue what the highend game looks like, because your assumptions about how the game is are entirely wrong.
Stop trying to act like a big shot, it's just embarassing. At the absolute most, you need to be able to kite and manage your aggro and watch for reflect emotes and whatnot. But unless you are the one who pulls and learns how the encounters work and the strats you need to succeed, then I hate to break it to you, but you could be replaced by a chimp.

Lets hear what your characters are that have put "4 sold years into this game" and seen the highend? Because I'm just not buying that you are anything but a jaded ignorant nub that thinks any change is bad. Your entire argument is based around the claim that this change makes things easier, yet you have failed to provide a single example of how it makes things easier other than the apparent difficulty you have in targeting mobs...

If I was an ignorant nub, why would I want to prevent the game from getting easier?

And the fact that you still can't see how this makes things easier, AND even sees it as somehow related to targetting mobs, just shows how pointless it is me even trying to debate anything with you. As I said earlier, if you and that Rorne muppet are the best this game has to offer, and the biggest mouths on this forum, then the game is already on a sad path, and I'm not going to waste my time beating my head against this wall of stupidity. So I wont reply to you again now, enjoy getting in your last say.
 
What are your character names robots, it is probably relevant at this point.
 
You still fail to understand that the new system doesnt make things easier. It makes things less random.

Also, you obviously have never done marza content because standing somewhere and pressing a macro just doesnt happen.
 
I think that approaching an argument with the stance that everyone else is wrong and that nobody aside from you + whichever ancient pantheon of gods you rolled with in the glory days are the only people capable of evaluating a change is ridiculous and to then get all surly about it and run out of the argument is just exceptionally cowardly.
 
They played the game to actually play the game, but that entire mentality has almost entirely died out now. It is now filled with people who right from the start, start broadcasting, "Where is the best place for a level x". They rush to 65 as fast as possible, load up on overpowered raid gear, and then (like you), spend the rest of their lives in blissful ignorance, never needing to really think about anything or play on the edge of their seat. Just strutting around from raid to raid or hand picked groups of similarly overpowered people, where nothing actually matters. When all your healers and casters have over 9000 mana and 20ft and all your tanks have a million AC and hitpoints, then yeah, I can see why 'calculating' stuff aint nothin but a thing, dawg.

Nothing, including this change, really prevents anyone from taking the slow path if they want to, perhaps with a group of friends. The thing that has changed since the old days isn't really about mechanics at all, it's just that most of the people who kept playing eventually got to 65 and stayed there. This happened during Wiz's tenure, and here are some of the things he did about it: decreased the amount of exp needed between levels, added "new area" exp bonuses and flat zone exp bonuses, took out corpse runs, added quick travel between cities, increased the rate of mana restoration from meditate ("meditative trance"), added quests that let you skip several levels (the Main Quest), added one of those "best exp at level x" areas (Heartlands robots), added charms that require huge amounts of cash grinding in order to benefit one character at a time, let Xeldan make Sepulcher and Caverns of Darkness to fill gaps in raid progression and make it easier for a guild to move up to OP and IP, had new Devs (TM and Wold) make raid zones, lowered the raid cap from 36 characters to 18 so more guilds could focus on raiding, added Codex of Power tomes when people started maxing their AAs, and so on.

The game evolved as bigger portions of the playerbase hit 65. Even if Wiz would have preferred never making anything more convenient (it's not clear if he would have), it's not clear that most of our population would have been content to make new characters and slowly grind them up to 65 over and over again. He could have kept it more like classic EQ, but maybe he realized that most people would have gotten bored of that after a few months and left. Events are cool, and he seemed to like doing those, but they have their own issues of being hard to pull off and leaving out any players who didn't happen to playing (in the right area) at the right time.


Plus it would have been really boring to Dev for a game that never changes.

tl;dr I don't think SoD was ever the game you seem to want it to be, robots.
 
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LOOK!

I love the good ol' days as much as or more than anyone! <-- FACT!

I also love low-mid content PERHAPS more than anyone? I asked a new dev to make a level 10-20 zone JUST RECENTLY and I got the Cesspits and people love it!

I love 'taking the slow way' more than anyone perhaps! This is a tough competition because no dev loves deving for the high end we would all love to do other things (and usually we do that!) Only Marza loves doing ultra-high end content. But I have personally started characters and done the non-twink adept killing thing etc. I have five(?) 65s now and usually just bro'd down with friends the whole way through!

I love getting lucky and winning a fight due to a good roll of the dice! IT IS A GREAT FEELING! I would rate it 7/10 cool feeling. Here is the problem: LOSING a fight for the SAME REASON is a 10/10 on the SUCK SCALE!

Not being able to cast on ANY MOB IN PLANE OF TORMENT as a Mage sucks A HUNDRED out of ten. Having to take on faith that Charisma helps or that your Malosini does anything sucks. KNOWING that statistically, for some fights some times, even though your Malsoini landed or you got that CHA boost it had ZERO EFFECT sucks (this is getting pretty ethereal and is unknowable to a player, honestly, but it still is real and sucks).

This isn't even getting in to the developing side of things and let me ASSURE you that having to make a spell literally unresistable to have it be a part of your fight sucks more than anything. There are many many many encounters that could have normal spells that take your resists into account and be interesting but with the old system of resists, a sufficiently high number in ONE stat completely nullifies that entire mechanic. THIS SUCKS.

Getting rid of all this suck is worth getting rid of the relatively smaller amount of cool.

I know I'm just addressing one issue (the topic of the thread) but please understand no one made this decision because they hated old players or hated the old game or anything. If you want to talk about 'power creep' or 'mudflation' there are cool arguments to be made there and, perhaps, handsome solutions to be found. But for THIS change in THIS instance it is better in both the short and long runs for everyone.
 
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