Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Updated my post to fix the error.
The sub level 50(lv 60?) levels are desolate
- Thread starter fuwok
- Start date
Ezie3205
Dalayan Elder
I have a lot of mixed feelings on this thread.
On the one hand, I want to see a greater population and starting people off at 55 would put people in the area that would allow for grouping but if we are going to go that far why not the whole boat? I personally loved leveling at 55 but there is only slightly more groups at 55 than prior to 50. At 55 you are still either getting your hand held by a nice 65 in his leech group/tmap or the occasional weekend group in a blessed zone on level. It just seems like popping them up to 65, which is arguably the start of the game, would actually get them to where they could group with the majority of the population.
It creates its own brand of small problems, but what isn't going to at this point?
On the one hand, I want to see a greater population and starting people off at 55 would put people in the area that would allow for grouping but if we are going to go that far why not the whole boat? I personally loved leveling at 55 but there is only slightly more groups at 55 than prior to 50. At 55 you are still either getting your hand held by a nice 65 in his leech group/tmap or the occasional weekend group in a blessed zone on level. It just seems like popping them up to 65, which is arguably the start of the game, would actually get them to where they could group with the majority of the population.
It creates its own brand of small problems, but what isn't going to at this point?
Vitali
Dalayan Master
Well I dont like the idea of starting at 65, because then you've made all adepts undoable.
Large percent boosts to exp and skill gains pre 65 makes more sense. Can lock at a level you like still, but still have to work your wait to max level. Even if it is super easy with 1000% exp gain.
Large percent boosts to exp and skill gains pre 65 makes more sense. Can lock at a level you like still, but still have to work your wait to max level. Even if it is super easy with 1000% exp gain.
Ludovician
Dalayan Elder
New solution
Give everyone a Fuwok
Give everyone a Fuwok
Pecannius
Dalayan Elder
Getting a pre-leveled character is one of the detestable things that makes WoW (and similar games) horrible imo. You don't know the intricacies of your class if you skip the early levels and you don't appreciate your new spells/abilities. Also it cheapens the lower level content which is very backwards considering that there are adepts and the newer low level quests.
With that said, it would make sense to have less downtime at lower levels. Maybe something like vastly accelerated hp/mana regen out of combat. At lv1, when out of combat you will regain hp/mana at ridiculous rates that tapers off the higher level you get.
With that said, it would make sense to have less downtime at lower levels. Maybe something like vastly accelerated hp/mana regen out of combat. At lv1, when out of combat you will regain hp/mana at ridiculous rates that tapers off the higher level you get.
dracosf22
Dalayan Elder
I never had much downtime at lower lvs from mana....rebuffing every 15 minutes however. ><
Vitali
Dalayan Master
I really liked Zaela's idea from years ago. While it doesn't apply to lower levels as much, it's still a really good idea. After X amount of time (think she suggested 2-3minutes) you will receive full HP and mana as long as you aren't in combat. I liked that because recovering from anything or just generating mana after a good fight can take far more than 2-3 minutes.
Making a quest for Ancients and Relics instead of fighting higher tier'd dudes for monster they need for quests and such would also be nice. It doesn't have to be easy or incredibly hard, maybe a stack of uncommon stuff + some running around pre quests to unlock another avenue for them. RNG Ancient and Relic drops are awful, and is why I probably won't ever make a spell casting alt. Not to mention the other spells (Archaic, Murk, Dreadlands, Runic 1, Runic 2, etc...)
Making a quest for Ancients and Relics instead of fighting higher tier'd dudes for monster they need for quests and such would also be nice. It doesn't have to be easy or incredibly hard, maybe a stack of uncommon stuff + some running around pre quests to unlock another avenue for them. RNG Ancient and Relic drops are awful, and is why I probably won't ever make a spell casting alt. Not to mention the other spells (Archaic, Murk, Dreadlands, Runic 1, Runic 2, etc...)
I think the server needs to change with the going trend. Folks that start the server that want the true experience of playing one character, collecting bone chips till they get a mithril weapon are few and far between. They start the game, find a buddy, level to 5 or 6, then buddy quits or jumps to level 50 in a flash. The Grinkles army is great and there has been a ton of work put into it but the very idea behind is flawed. If the right amount of folks can't come together to take out an adept thats fine. It stays up.
Most folks seem to agree that the real game starts at 65. This is true. I think if you are going to go the route of jumping folks it should be straight to 65. Stopping at 55 because of the adepts just seems pointless. One could say stopping them at 43 because the Malo doll guy (sorry name slips my mind) could also be important to some classes. Also, not having folks jump to 65 because there skills and knowledge of class stops them. So what. If you have a shaman that sucks in your group and is screwing around you boot him out because there'll be another shaman close by because they will all be 65. With adventure bands and powerleveling you will always find a garbage character somewhere.
I like the idea of raising everyone to 65. It might slow some folks from powerleveling characters to 65 just so they can group with there high level friends. I also really like the previous idea of doing some sort of quest to get relic/ancient spells. Some of these spells are incredibly important to the class and will stop people from grouping with them. Give a new person a chance to go and get these spells on their own personal time versus needing to get a raid force together to take out a tier 5 mob for a slight, maybe chance to get one.
Most folks seem to agree that the real game starts at 65. This is true. I think if you are going to go the route of jumping folks it should be straight to 65. Stopping at 55 because of the adepts just seems pointless. One could say stopping them at 43 because the Malo doll guy (sorry name slips my mind) could also be important to some classes. Also, not having folks jump to 65 because there skills and knowledge of class stops them. So what. If you have a shaman that sucks in your group and is screwing around you boot him out because there'll be another shaman close by because they will all be 65. With adventure bands and powerleveling you will always find a garbage character somewhere.
I like the idea of raising everyone to 65. It might slow some folks from powerleveling characters to 65 just so they can group with there high level friends. I also really like the previous idea of doing some sort of quest to get relic/ancient spells. Some of these spells are incredibly important to the class and will stop people from grouping with them. Give a new person a chance to go and get these spells on their own personal time versus needing to get a raid force together to take out a tier 5 mob for a slight, maybe chance to get one.
Go start a level 1 character and tell me you wouldn't quit if you had to solo to lv 50 for the hopes of enjoying this game that your friend or whoever told you was good.
Vitali
Dalayan Master
Exactly this. I had 3-5 RL friends start this game over the last couple years. I did everything I could to retain them. Good low level gear, make new toons to level with them, set up some fights with low tier monsters that seem cool and strong (who doesn't like killing WW dragons? Feels epic as a newbie), but leveling and everything solo to 65 is awfulGo start a level 1 character and tell me you wouldn't quit if you had to solo to lv 50 for the hopes of enjoying this game that your friend or whoever told you was good.
Ezie3205
Dalayan Elder
I have said in other thread that the reason I came and stayed on this server is my love of soloing and dual boxing but the depth of grinding is intimidating. I came to this server by myself and then convinced 2 friends to play with me. We designed our group around not needing other people with the expressed idea of dominating the 6 man scene and destroying adepts while we leveled.
What actually happened was one quit and one pretty much only logs on for raids one day a week till his bard and monk get all the gear they can before T10 and he loses interest. You can check out my friend and see what a 65 leveled fresh without twinking and stopping to do at least 70% of the adepts leveling up is going to look like (Aelyss and Tormod). That gear is gross but I feel a good example of what you can expect from fresh players who actually make it. That gear is largely made up of lvl 15-30 drops or common and cheap BoEs.
Starting the 65 grind with that gear is terrible. I stopped at 55 to grind 100aas and farm the 55 adepts because they quit their first time and honestly if I hadn't we would not have had the ability to get any of that tmap gear or have the money for those BoEs and they never would have made the final push to 65 with me. Sadly, once they climbed to the top of that peek they looked up and saw above the clouds for the first time realizing that they were not yet on the mountain and shit themselves.
Lvl 1-65 teaches you some things about your class but those lessons are not unlearn-able at 65 and are just as likely to be learned better at 65 when you have everything at your disposal. I think leveling a beast from 1-65 is a great example of this. From lvl 1 without your pet or spells you feel like you are missing something and you are. The only harder class to get to lvl 9 with might be paladin. Once you get your pet though, oh man do you feel like a god. Your pet can have 2 mobs on it and you can have one, you throw up a slow on everything and keep your pet healed and you have no problem. You need to med a bit but you are a one man group, your pet is Tank and CC and you are heals and DPS. Don't try that shit at 65 though, your pet cant tank one mob let alone 2.
Also, you do not need 60 levels of the same spells to figure out which ones you want to cast on yourself and which ones you don't.
I am not advocating just letting everyone have as many level 65s as they want and there is too much fun to be had in the 1-55 range to rob people of the content but right now there is no reason for people to stay outside of their desire to be here in the first place. This game is a niche market and we could be doing more as a community to keep potential buyers.
What actually happened was one quit and one pretty much only logs on for raids one day a week till his bard and monk get all the gear they can before T10 and he loses interest. You can check out my friend and see what a 65 leveled fresh without twinking and stopping to do at least 70% of the adepts leveling up is going to look like (Aelyss and Tormod). That gear is gross but I feel a good example of what you can expect from fresh players who actually make it. That gear is largely made up of lvl 15-30 drops or common and cheap BoEs.
Starting the 65 grind with that gear is terrible. I stopped at 55 to grind 100aas and farm the 55 adepts because they quit their first time and honestly if I hadn't we would not have had the ability to get any of that tmap gear or have the money for those BoEs and they never would have made the final push to 65 with me. Sadly, once they climbed to the top of that peek they looked up and saw above the clouds for the first time realizing that they were not yet on the mountain and shit themselves.
Lvl 1-65 teaches you some things about your class but those lessons are not unlearn-able at 65 and are just as likely to be learned better at 65 when you have everything at your disposal. I think leveling a beast from 1-65 is a great example of this. From lvl 1 without your pet or spells you feel like you are missing something and you are. The only harder class to get to lvl 9 with might be paladin. Once you get your pet though, oh man do you feel like a god. Your pet can have 2 mobs on it and you can have one, you throw up a slow on everything and keep your pet healed and you have no problem. You need to med a bit but you are a one man group, your pet is Tank and CC and you are heals and DPS. Don't try that shit at 65 though, your pet cant tank one mob let alone 2.
Also, you do not need 60 levels of the same spells to figure out which ones you want to cast on yourself and which ones you don't.
I am not advocating just letting everyone have as many level 65s as they want and there is too much fun to be had in the 1-55 range to rob people of the content but right now there is no reason for people to stay outside of their desire to be here in the first place. This game is a niche market and we could be doing more as a community to keep potential buyers.
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darksabbath
Dalayan Master
One of the things that help separate us from many of the emu's out there, is the not starting everyone at 65 (or whatever max they are using). I don't think we should change that, either. I can't say I have a handy solution for the low levels, besides recruiting many new players at once. Even when we had far more people playing (300-400 at prime time), there was sometimes still issues with finding a group while leveling. I am unsure if some of the ideas presented here (shrouds and such) are even viable here, but I think those are a better idea than eliminating levels 1-X.
I am not even sure how giving level X solves anything at all. First, it trivializes most of the content, including one of the most unique ideas in emus, the adept mobs. Second, who will want the naked new 65 in their group, it can be hard for a new 65 in weak gear to get a group, how hard would it be for the naked one? So, then you have to decide on a minimum set of gear to give to these new people, and then, and then, and then. Far more could be done to make leveling easier instead. Increasing buff durations for one, increase out of combat mana/hp regen for another. Making the xp boost for adding more group members get bigger as you add more, sure would help too (at all levels).
I am not even sure how giving level X solves anything at all. First, it trivializes most of the content, including one of the most unique ideas in emus, the adept mobs. Second, who will want the naked new 65 in their group, it can be hard for a new 65 in weak gear to get a group, how hard would it be for the naked one? So, then you have to decide on a minimum set of gear to give to these new people, and then, and then, and then. Far more could be done to make leveling easier instead. Increasing buff durations for one, increase out of combat mana/hp regen for another. Making the xp boost for adding more group members get bigger as you add more, sure would help too (at all levels).
Convert all the lower tier content into sub-65 content, heh. Would make all untrivialize all the content that became trivial with Ikisith and similar stuff, make sub-65 go faster (with old tiered gear), and make sub-65 more interesting/fun (more folks recycling to do that content, so more folks in that lv range at least for awhile.)
(This idea is maybe 25% serious, and totally pulled out of my ass on the fly, so it's probably full of holes, but w/e, heh)
(This idea is maybe 25% serious, and totally pulled out of my ass on the fly, so it's probably full of holes, but w/e, heh)
You know............. just thinking out loud here................
Why not give the option of jumping in at level 55, but as part of kaezuls army? (Even with a standard "army kit" of gear?) Meaning everyone hates you, so you have ton of factioning and alignment work to do, but would allow you to group and adventure band with others. Still leaves enough room to grow and learn the game, but gives you a running start.
And the back story could be that your toon was the sole survivor of a shipwreck, or got seperated from his patrol.... deep inserted spy... etc etc
Why not give the option of jumping in at level 55, but as part of kaezuls army? (Even with a standard "army kit" of gear?) Meaning everyone hates you, so you have ton of factioning and alignment work to do, but would allow you to group and adventure band with others. Still leaves enough room to grow and learn the game, but gives you a running start.
And the back story could be that your toon was the sole survivor of a shipwreck, or got seperated from his patrol.... deep inserted spy... etc etc
Ludovician
Dalayan Elder
Cool idea but you're just trading one grind with a sense of progression for a grind that involves endless work and targeting an NPC and pressing 'c' every now and then to see how you're doing.
I'd take leveling 1-65 over doing faction work for the same amount of time (probably longer tbh, theres a lot of faction you need that you don't realize.)
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
No joke. No one really enjoys farming faction...
Just make it an option. Start at level 1, start at level 55, start at level 65:
Level 1 is what we have now. A basically naked person with no skills/spells.
Level 55 will start you there with some max skills, basic 55 gear, all spells, and run3 AA.
Level 65 starts you with max skills, T1 gear, all non-quest spells, run3/Meto3/regen3 AA done.
This lets people choose if they want to level all the way up or join the community right away.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
I don't agree with giving people all their 61-65 spells for free, but I also think 65 spells are generally grossly overpriced do idk. Some way of getting people to level quickly or alternative ways of leveling/acquiring spells and skills would be better than just skipping it altogether IMO.
Ludovician
Dalayan Elder
To me what this whole thing comes down to can be simplified:
The roadblock between a new player and level 65 / raiding is TIME. The TIME spent here is not representative of skill or ability or knowledge, and it should not dictate who deserves 65 and who doesn't in a free to play MMO that's already hurting for players.
Levels 1-65 (and maybe 100s of AAs and then tomes) is a precursor to the game. If you bought a new Xbox game that said you couldn't play the meat of the game until you put in a month (or more) of boring grinding no matter how good you were at it, would you play it? Would you even care how good the end game is? Some would - most would not.
Where TIME does come into play and fit is once you're 65 and raiding. Raids should take some time (the time in raids comes from learning / working / not messing up. Most raid targets can be cleared to and killed in 2 hours or less up to about tier 10-11 where I stopped if a guild / group knows what they're doing and they're good at it. At this point TIME is related to knowledge / skill, and therefore it makes sense.
The unnecessary TIME issue still exists at 65 because the commitment it takes to finish tomes and AAs is no joke. Your guild expects it done, so you have to do it. Resentment builds between players who poopsock it daily and shoot ahead of the players who cannot commit the time. Poopsockers say the slower players need to work harder, and the slower players say the poopsockers need to get a life. Guild drama ensues, people leave or get kicked out and the whole grind starts over to get the whole guild on the same page until eventually the poopsockers leave the guild to join a higher tier guild and then once again the guild is sent back to back gearing.
Players quit the game, population dwindles, threads like this are made on the forum, account drives happen, and the whole thing repeats again.
The issues and solutions:
- 1-65 should be as fast or as slow as the player wants it to be. The penalty for skipping right to 65 is your gear sucks, so you leave it up to the player to find the necessary gear before skipping ahead too far. That way the progression is fully in the players hands.
-AAs start out at an OK pace but then for whatever reason the xp bonus is taken away at like 50AAs or whatever for the sake of making it slower and no other reason. Everyone has to get those AAs, why drive away players who don't want to spend the 6 months or whatever to get them? You're hurting your playerbase and I don't think any top tier people are going to say "I had to do it why don' the new guys?"
-Tomes are too slow unless you're in a power group with tier 13 ringers. There's no reason to make them take so long.
Every time sink you put / allow to remain in chases out casual players who would otherwise enjoy this game and contribute to the community. Imagine if Grinkles didn't have the time to commit to leveling and gearing up and ended up not sticking around? Look how much he contributes to the community. How many Grinkles have you scared away do you think?
The only time investment that players should deal with is raiding and learning encounters. Even that is unnecessarily extend by buffing and prep time but that's for another thread.
The roadblock between a new player and level 65 / raiding is TIME. The TIME spent here is not representative of skill or ability or knowledge, and it should not dictate who deserves 65 and who doesn't in a free to play MMO that's already hurting for players.
Levels 1-65 (and maybe 100s of AAs and then tomes) is a precursor to the game. If you bought a new Xbox game that said you couldn't play the meat of the game until you put in a month (or more) of boring grinding no matter how good you were at it, would you play it? Would you even care how good the end game is? Some would - most would not.
Where TIME does come into play and fit is once you're 65 and raiding. Raids should take some time (the time in raids comes from learning / working / not messing up. Most raid targets can be cleared to and killed in 2 hours or less up to about tier 10-11 where I stopped if a guild / group knows what they're doing and they're good at it. At this point TIME is related to knowledge / skill, and therefore it makes sense.
The unnecessary TIME issue still exists at 65 because the commitment it takes to finish tomes and AAs is no joke. Your guild expects it done, so you have to do it. Resentment builds between players who poopsock it daily and shoot ahead of the players who cannot commit the time. Poopsockers say the slower players need to work harder, and the slower players say the poopsockers need to get a life. Guild drama ensues, people leave or get kicked out and the whole grind starts over to get the whole guild on the same page until eventually the poopsockers leave the guild to join a higher tier guild and then once again the guild is sent back to back gearing.
Players quit the game, population dwindles, threads like this are made on the forum, account drives happen, and the whole thing repeats again.
The issues and solutions:
- 1-65 should be as fast or as slow as the player wants it to be. The penalty for skipping right to 65 is your gear sucks, so you leave it up to the player to find the necessary gear before skipping ahead too far. That way the progression is fully in the players hands.
-AAs start out at an OK pace but then for whatever reason the xp bonus is taken away at like 50AAs or whatever for the sake of making it slower and no other reason. Everyone has to get those AAs, why drive away players who don't want to spend the 6 months or whatever to get them? You're hurting your playerbase and I don't think any top tier people are going to say "I had to do it why don' the new guys?"
-Tomes are too slow unless you're in a power group with tier 13 ringers. There's no reason to make them take so long.
Every time sink you put / allow to remain in chases out casual players who would otherwise enjoy this game and contribute to the community. Imagine if Grinkles didn't have the time to commit to leveling and gearing up and ended up not sticking around? Look how much he contributes to the community. How many Grinkles have you scared away do you think?
The only time investment that players should deal with is raiding and learning encounters. Even that is unnecessarily extend by buffing and prep time but that's for another thread.