Vah Assassinations (Groups, Timers, and Grief)

DodoBot

DodoBot

Dalayan Elder
I'm writing this thread about half way through the Vah questline, and perhaps 2 months on the assassinations thus far. I want to say first and foremost that I think it is great for the game to have long, engrossing, quests which reward sustained effort with great items and a great story. For the most part, the Vah quests fulfill this aim.

However, there are certain aspects of the quests which not only detract from the fun of doing them, but encourage behavior which turns off people from even attempting these. In some cases, it can be so bad that it drives people to stop playing entirely. I don't want to nitpick the entire questline, but I would like to take issue here with how the Assassinations are implemented.

What I perceive to be the main problems of this part of the quest are:
  • Groupability - Several of these mobs are quite difficult to effectively duo with lower tier characters or poor class combinations. Thus when one brings a group to say, Advisor Garathor, or Eternal One, and that group all has to fulfill the requirements of the quest, yet only one person is able to get credit - this is a problem. This is especially a problem when multiple roses can be handed in and emotes received for proper completion of the first requirements, only to see one flag awarded at the end. The assassinations, if completed correctly, should be groupable.
  • Availability - These are 5 day +- 12 hour timers. That means that roughly 1.3 people can get each mob each week. That spawn delay could be simply be reduced to 2 day +- 6 hours to alleviate some of the stress. The respawn timers should be decreased.
  • Griefability - Even if the above two issues are addressed, there still lies the problem that obstructionist players deliberately kill Vah Quest mobs to stall the progress of other players. To me this is the biggest issue in play. What I would recommend to fix this would be a specialized * version of the mob, which only activates a long respawn timer if the assassination is properly completed. A mob like this would quickly respawn if killed outside a proper assassination, drop no loot, could not spawn if the normal version was up, and would only be properly killable once per flag. This would eliminate the ability to obstruct other players on the quest.
Any combination of the above could dramatically improve the lives of those attempting to do this quest. Especially for those of us who work during the day, it would enable completion of the quest on our own terms. It's not going to dramatically reduce the difficulty of the full questline, but it will make this aspect much more bearable. Remember, that this doesn't even address Parcelan, Tarlisha, Astatine, Shade of Eurikos, or Lasanth - all of which are do not have * versions, and all of which are griefable. I have to ask myself why Mielich has a * version but nothing else does? What was the rationale for that? Even if these had quest only versions, it would still take significant time, effort, and raids to complete the quest in its entirety.

Before anyone says that Vah used to be so much worse of a poopsock back in the day (with even more camping and competition), I'm going to say that A) Just because something was shittier years ago doesn't mean I still want to eat a shit sandwich today.

*EDIT* Striking the part about perceived necessity because it is apparently only in my head and is only serving to distract from the principal points of the post. Everything in the main body still stands.

Thanks for the consideration.
 
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DodoBot said:
B) the fact that many casual players left this game a long time ago makes getting items like this even more of a perceived necessity - hardcore raiders are expected to eventually complete the questline. Since that's a higher percentage of the population, the perceived need to get a Vah back to stay competitive is much greater.
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If people truly believe that and you feel it ruins your time on the server then that sucks. There is not a fight being killed in the game that requires vah back anymore. People are just bad at the game and look for another reason why they cant beat content they are not over tiered for.
 
Lleoc said:
If people truly believe that and you feel it ruins your time on the server then that sucks. There is not a fight being killed in the game that requires vah back anymore. People are just bad at the game and look for another reason why they cant beat content they are not over tiered for.
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I don't know where he's getting that from because Prophecy (guild he is in) has definitely not had that mentality. That's why we only have 2 active mains and 1 alt with a vah back. We have another main and alt ready for shar vahl. Of those 5 toons there are 2 tanks, 1 DPS, and 2 healers. We're doing just fine without a lot of vah backs. We have 2-3 other relatively inactive players with vah back, too. Dozens of members, only 5 completed backs and two near done. Not slowing us down at all.

Sounds more like made up filler to argue his case, which itself is just one more thread of previously suggested comments.

As someone who has done all of these quests twice (once in high population, once recently with low population) I'll reiterate my previously posted thoughts. Group flags are good; making the vah assassinations not have cash loot but keep same timers is good.

Reducing timers and /or increasing opportunities by having real and * versions is not good. A challenge of the quest would be trivialized if this was done. Mielech has a * version because he is the intro to the banners and was not intended as a bottleneck. Everything else was intended as bottlenecks to increase difficulty. It was not accidental or an oversight.

Edited for autocorrect on mobile
 
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I actually like the long timer and rarity created by assassination mobs having cash drops. I could get on board with multiple flags being possible per kill though. From a lore perspective it makes sense, and it can create a lot of drama when 2 or 3 people track the same mob and get there at the same time and are fighting over who has "rights" or whatever. If they both want to assassinate the same dude, no reason they cant team up.

Making the mobs more common though kind of diminishes the struggle involved in the quest. It sucks while you are there, but completing it is that much more satisfying.
 
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I'm not sure I agree with the stated solution to it, but I do think that griefing is the only real problem with the assassinations. I like that they are a bit of challenging and different content and I think that keeping them difficult gives a satisfying reward beyond just another banner when you've finally killed all of the assassination targets, I know I felt great after completing my Vah banners. What I don't think is fun is the addition of griefing to the mix. If someone beat me to a target, and got the flag while I didn't, fine, I have no problems with that. But since they are desirable cash mobs it can start to really muck up and go from competitive to just frustrating, as someone after cash doesn't have to follow all the engage rules. I wasn't around when this quest-line was implemented, but I'm not sure that these mobs were as easily box-killable at that time, so maybe an adjustment is due. I mean going and getting cash with your buddies as part of grouping in the zone and getting an assassination target in the mix is one thing, but one person camping cash can be quite another.

Realistically the staff shouldn't have to fix this as there are ways to deal with it between players (for example, offering someone who is trying to kill the target for cash, the loot drops, but they help you with killing it with the proper engage). But the ability for one player to cause many others grief is pretty high. We had about 5 members of my guild working on the Vah quest simultaneously, and they were tracking the various targets associated with the quest-line. During a raid we didn't allow a specific player (not even another entire guild or anything) a right-of-way/content claim and he was upset about it and took the next month deliberately blocking all the Vah content from my fellow guildies. While this is probably a more extreme example, I don't think its great that with the character power wielded nowadays on the server that one person can frustrate so many so easily. And this is also the line I'd draw between players motivated by cash and players truly griefing others.

I wish I had a clear cut solution to griefing, but beyond that I think the assassinations are fine.
 
DodoBot said:
hardcore raiders are expected to eventually complete the questline.
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I'm not sure where that comes from. I, for one, have not completed the quest and occasionally fight raid monsters. I've also carefully spread rumors that I do acceptable dps without it.
 
enasc said:
I'm not sure where that comes from. I, for one, have not completed the quest and occasionally fight raid monsters. I've also carefully spread rumors that I do acceptable dps without it.
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i have no vah back and do the best dps
 
Tev only does good dps because all the wizards he casts AOD on have their vah back.

For real, griefing sucks, I don't know what the correct way to deal with it is... Maybe I got lucky, but when I did my vah I never had an issue. Assassination mobs were definitely hard to find, but on the few occasions I found myself racing to mobs against others, we pretty much respected whoever was there first (that usually meant who had a force capable of completing it at the mob first), and the one time someone just wanted $, I let them have $ and they let me kill it for the flag.

I don't think there is a good systematic way to deal with griefing, because it can look the same as someone just trying to complete the quest for themselves. Allowing multiple flags per kill would help, but at the end of the day its just a case by case issue, and I really think/hope that most of the time people are reasonable and can work together. There is still huge competition over these mobs, and I think maybe people see this and get frustrated and may think others are griefing them, but these mobs will always be highly contested, its the nature of the beast.
 
I like the idea of these quest mobs getting a * version if nobody completed the quest upon killing the regular one.

.. and also not completing the quest upon killing the * version.


that would prevent griefing which is probably realistically the biggest issue if it happens. Even Epic mobs on live with a 1 week respawn were essentially only for Epics at that point in time, you could in a sense use most of the drops for others (probably unintentional) and ... weren't shared for EVERY SINGLE CLASS. It is crazy to me that the assassinations for instance are also cash mobs that anyone will kill if they see them up and are also longish respawns that everyone is going to need if they wish to complete the quest.
 
Them being cash mobs just adds to their rarity/contested status. That just seems like wanting to make the quest easier.
 
I mean I don't want their cash removed, but adding in a * version would be nice. Isn't the whole point of this thread to make it "easier" in some fashion, though?

I was trying to think of an EQLive equivalent and thought of Epics (which is the closest fit I can think of) and addressed the fact that even Epics were easier for a myriad of reasons. Some maybe unintentional, like MQing.

To me, Shards was sort of a reinvisioning of how EQ was after Luclin. It's weird that after all the improvements they've made, some things added later - to this day - just make no sense. MAYBE The Vah made more sense when it came out, I don't know I wasn't there for it, and I'm not quite sure what the intention was.
 
bluetequila said:
I was trying to think of an EQLive equivalent and thought of Epics (which is the closest fit I can think of)
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I would relate the Vah to BiC http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1298 Incidentally, and if memory serves correct, many of the very difficult kills are instanced.

There are a few other long quests in EQ, but this is the one I would most closely relate to the Vah. I never did finish the BiC quest, but several epics/masks/etc., I did finish.
 
Thinking back to when that April Fools mob timer command was in game, maybe it would make sense and be helpful to people if the cat asking you to kill monster X could tell you the time they were "last seen" (died)? Gives you the timer, gives everyone on that stage of the quest the timer, but not people beyond that stage.

Not sure if that's possible, but could be a help to the people trying to kill a monster they can never find up, kind of fit in thematically, and not make the quest easy mode.
 
enasc said:
Thinking back to when that April Fools mob timer command was in game, maybe it would make sense and be helpful to people if the cat asking you to kill monster X could tell you the time they were "last seen" (died)? Gives you the timer, gives everyone on that stage of the quest the timer, but not people beyond that stage.

Not sure if that's possible, but could be a help to the people trying to kill a monster they can never find up, kind of fit in thematically, and not make the quest easy mode.
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The type of people who kill these mobs for cash or to just keep other people down, would have no problem getting a toon to this part of the quest and sitting on it just to always have a timer.
 
no one currently is so dedicated to blocking mobs that they sit a toon on it and kill it every time. if you really want assassinations just find out the actual timer which is not 5 days and sit a level 1 toon on it till he dies. you will get the timer
 
I don't think you will find support for changes that serve to make The Vah easier. Its a huge long PITA quest, and massively frustrating when you are stuck at one particular point, but it is intended to be that way, and many players "like" that. I say "like" because nobody enjoys actually being stuck on some assassination, but the achievement/memories/social bonds, and even competition are all fun and desirable.

I know you hate it right now, but when you are doing quests like this it vastly behooves you to be social. To have friends/guildies all working through it together. X can tell you they finally got Y mob last night, so it will be back up in Z time-frame. The guy you text/call up at 3am to log in and help you snipe this mob that popped right as you were logging to go to bed. The joy/pride in finally completing X step or the entire quest, and getting to say "clicking vah! Max DPS! Throw Curses!".

Its a struggle and difficult, and if you run into true griefers they should be reported to staff, but it is intended to be really time consuming and difficult. Making * versions, or removing cash drops simply make the quest easier. Giving the timer makes it easier too and can be abused (I don't think people would level a toon just for it, but it probably wouldn't be hard to find a random retired toon that is at/close to that step and abuse it). I could get behind allowing multiple flags per kill because it hugely makes sense lore wise, and doesn't change how rare/elusive the mobs, but just making the quest easier is bad IMO, and staff seems to agree on this issue given the countless related threads with no change.
 
speakeroo said:
. Though personally, the part about the vah quest I do not like, is how you must either box or have a friend box to kill some of the mobs. Many of the common methods involve FD'ing over the mob, so either I must box a necro to FD me, or have a necro friend with me*. Because as a mage, I won't have a pet (due to fd), myself or a friend need to play a tank. It is doable, you just gotta poop sock it.
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There's plenty of ways to go about these without FD, you can get pretty creative. Also spoilers! sheesh!
 
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