Discussion in 'Suggestions & Requests' started by Kakos, Jun 27, 2010.
Valid point Cyzaine, I look forward to the change
I hope this will be implemented.
One minor point at the moment I forgot to discuss. A lingering HoT (hate over time!) would hurt feign death. I suppose SK's could be included in the Necro anti festering exploit code, or simply be forced to use a different spell for tagging. But it is a point I hadn't quite considered.
That's why I asked if assault of shadows would remain unchanged. If it would remain the same, we would avoid this problem.
thats why I brought up how I use it with fd and so on. my suggestion was to keep the lower version of the spell as it is now, but not stacking with current one, that way that one can be used for tagging.
I am afraid to loose my mega uber instant agro, cuz i cast Terror Kae, then AA , then other terror, before the mob even get to me, and imo thats PRO! Id hate to loose it, for just having better AoE agro (wich is a lie, cuz if u do the same thing i just said, to each mob, ur agro will be moster).
Altho yeah, will have SK's another whole, and a lot other spells to cast. but the problem that Tinkaa said, our Spears are VERY resisted, even if u have high charisma, and it eats ur mana a lot.
Having to cast Terrors all the time, and let other ppl burn, conservs the SK's mana, since terrors are easy on mana. but having to cast terrors + spears, + deflux, and etc, will drain our mana fast i think.
Anyways, i think we could atleast give it a try, and see how it goes. But, again, i am afraid of my uber instant agro.
Except your uber aggro means absolutely nothing in the situation until the mob takes damage, if you cast 100 terrors its still going to be able to completely ignore you and go for someone else. Do you seriously think if this change happens you wont be able have things (SEE: SPEARS) tweaked.
You're way to paranoid about losing this.
this is very true, especially if it would be needed for agro on multiple mobs.. that would mean a lot of downtime for medding, ie oom knight before oom rest of group.
brazen bull 190 mana
deflux 198 mana
spear of agony 200m
sublimate soul 275m
shroud of nightmares 325m
touch of the succubus 395m
(vortex of death I wouldnt use but 275m)
(devouring darkness I wouldnt use 400m)
but yeah Im assuming and hoping that if during testing or after implementation its noticed that agro generation isnt sufficient without scary mana amounts, that something will be adjusted.
That said im looking forward to being able to have more of my utility spells loaded in spellset and be able to use em more often, although I hope I wont NEED to use them on multiple mobs just to keep agro.
no kidding genious... but once the mob comes to me, and i hit it, or he hits me, i have an amazing amount of agro. or i can just do a deflux instead of the 3rd terror if i feel like i need the agro while he is running to me (hardly need it, unless my healer wanna start heals before i get hit... when is that happening?). Duh...
Ya, maybe spears get tweaked, that would be good with this inplementation, but with just this inplemented, i have to think in the big picture, and atm, our spells waste tons and tons of mana.
Don't shit up this thread man. I'm sorry that you cannot see how huge of a benefit this might be to our class, and the ways around the situation you're describing, but don't lash out at others because of it.
as a matter of fact, i am seeing both sides of it, the good and the bad. and just pointing it out.
So this effectively nerfs an SK's ability to build up a bunch of hate on a mezz'd mob.
Make the aggro over time spell a new spell (or replace one of the terrors with it) that does not stack with terrors. That way a SK can either Use the aggro over time with spears etc OR cast terrors.
Make the aggro over time spell an AoE that does not stack with terrors. That way SKs get some other type of AoE aggro but cannot build up a lot of aggro in conjunction with terrors on multiple mobs. You could even give it a long duration, long recast.
agro from one new hate spell at 675+510x3 would likely be enough to outagro the mez, thus it wouldnt be an issue.
You've done a miraculous job of not reading the thread, and not understanding the nature of the change.
I usually weigh in on class threads that have nothing to do with me so I wanted to say that I think this possible new terror mechanic is very cool. I used to complain about how shadowknight terrors didn't scale and blah blah blah but after spending a bit of time on one it seems like they really do have more aggro than you could possibly want on a single target, so I think the effects of losing a bit of single target aggro will be functionally negligible, while the possibilities for easier AE aggro are phenomenally huge.
Ngl on most raid targets I terror a couple times and spam deflux the rest of the fight anyway.
EDIT: See next page.
Ok after some extensive testing with many SK's and a couple groups, we're going to move forward with this.
The results looked pretty good. For the solo trials, we had three primary tests, on a test mob with no resistances. In no particular order these tests were:
Use your typical 'serious' hate cycle
Use a 2 or 3 (depending on latency) terror cycle exclusively
Go all out without Terrors
1 was a mixture of terrors, taps, and anything else the individual SK thought was good hate. 2 and 3 are self explanatory. In all 3 cases the SK was allowed to melee, bash, and stance to their hearts content. In nearly all cases 1 > 2 >> 3. These results were expected.
We then took the SK's on test to try out the new terror of Kaezul.
Terror of Kaezul
Cast time: 1 sec
Recast: 0 sec
Mana cost: 165
Effect: 675 initial hate followed by 500 per tick
Duration: 3 ticks
Terrors do NOT block one another
The SK's were told to use only Terror of Kaezul, and only cast it twice throughout the fight, depending on taps, spears, and all the rest for the rest of the aggro. The SK used the same buffs, same gear, LESS tomes, and in at least 1 case LESS AA's (test server can be a bit out of date).
The result? Well by just the numbers SK's averaged 20% more hate via this method and the mana costs were negligibly different (favoring the old method when it was measurable). But What does that really mean?
The test mob had low resists and was level 65. Assuming the mob isn't immune to your taps/spears/resources etc, 20% resist seems very high, but possible resist rate. I believe it's a safe bet that once resists and bad luck are taken into account, at the current values, the SK's will see a small aggro gain using an 'optimal' hate cycle. Furthermore they will see a substantial gain in DPS and hp returned by not depending on their terrors.
In the case that the mob is immune to your taps, etc, you'll be able to maintain hate levels by cycling between Kaezul and Marlow as before, but with less spam. This is not optimal. If you decide to continue to spam terrors with this change in, you'll do around 2% more hate, for 3x the mana cost, and of course no further utility. (That's the reason for not blocking terrors, btw. I feel if an SK REALLY wants to be bad, I shouldn't baby sit them into being good. Learn an optimal cycle!).
This change, unless some quality arguments against it occurs, is due to go live in the next day or two.
[Nathasar won the high score btw. But he cheated and used a 2h weapon. Minlas was second, but cheated by having spell casting subtly already started.]
Blah forgot the group results.
While less hard data and controls were possible for the groups followed, suffice it to say the SK didn't lose aggro any more frequently. Further observations will have to be saved for field testing though.
Nathasar probably cheated and went offensive stance, I stayed in defensive to keep it real, but yeah agro doesnt seem to be an issue
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